RFC uniform on a budget!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Quick questions:

1. Why do riding breeches have the large area in the thigh?

2. Can you briefly explain the British ranks and shoulder pips?

Thanks

[Stiffy 1]

I have made an odd discovery... the tunic turns out to be made in 1942 after all (found a hidden makers label stitched in a pocket)!!!

 

Which has me and several other people I have shown a little confused... the tunic is definitely cut in 1917 pattern and style which follwed the current fashions of the time.... so why the hell was it cut this way in 42?... Whoever had this uniform had tastes 25 years behind the times!.. perhaps an old veteran?.. but he had still only made it to lieutenant?...

 

Basically would be like me ordering a new suit with flares!

 

Upshot of all this is however that this item is now extremely valuable for completely different reasons! On one hand there is one group of people who would be interested in it as a curious piece of ww2 uniform andon the other hand there is a second group who can see it's pottential for conversion for ww1 reenactment. (jacket is 42 inch chest...very rare large size for age).

 

So as a ww2 item it is still worth more than I payed for it

 

But to a ww1 reenactor could be worth alot more, after all a good replica costs £350 and this is better.. because it is a genuine uniform in near mint condition.

 

I've put it up on ebay to see how it goes... 9 days to go and it already has 4 bids and 14 watchers!!

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1942-British-uniform-jacket-in-WW1-patern-42-Chest_W0QQitemZ230404133638QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Militaria_LE?hash=item35a5281306

 

 

I had considered keeping but it is too small for me as Ideally I take a 44/46 chest... the rfc tunic is also a little tight but will keep it until I can upgrade!

[Stiffy 1]

Quick questions:

1. Why do riding breeches have the large area in the thigh?

2. Can you briefly explain the British ranks and shoulder pips?

Thanks

 

 

I could be wrong but as far as I know the shape of the breeches (or britches as they are sometimes called) is purely a matter of fashion... like flared trousers in the 1970s.

 

As for british ranks here are the main ones (there aer othe varying ranks throughout history like sergeant major... this is technically a Warrant officer... but it gets complicated!)

 

Other ranks and NCO (anyone below officer!)

 

Lowest first

 

Private - No markings

Lance Corporal - One stripe on sleeves

Corporal - 2 stripes on sleeves

Sergeant - 3 stripes on sleeves

Staff Sergeant - 3 Stripes with crown above on sleeves

Warrant Officer 2nd Class - Crown above cuffs

Warrant Officer 1st Class - Royal coat of arms above cuffs

 

Officers

 

Insignia worn on cuffs before 1917... after then on shoulder

 

2nd Leiutenant - One pip on each shoulder

Lieutenant - 2 pips on each shoulder

Captain - 3 pips on each shoulder

Major - One crown on each shoulder

Lieutenant Colonel - One Crown and one pip on each shoulder

Colonel - One crown and 2 pips on each shoulder

Brigadier - One crown and 3 pips on each shoulder

Major General - Crossed sword and baton with one pip on shoulder

Lieutenant General - Crossed sword and baton with crown on shoulder

General - Crossed sword and baton with crown and one pip

Field marshal - I think this varies but generally seems to be a coat of arms in a laurel wreath

 

 

Hope this helps!

[Stiffy 1]

Just had a theory.... I had wondered if this tunic was in an older style due to the wearer being older, but was confused as to it appearing to be only a lieutenant...

 

All I based this on was the number of holes!!!!

 

Could just as easily be a Major!! that would explain the older style.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Stiffy

[JimAttrill 24]

Just had a theory.... I had wondered if this tunic was in an older style due to the wearer being older, but was confused as to it appearing to be only a lieutenant...

 

All I based this on was the number of holes!!!!

 

Could just as easily be a Major!! that would explain the older style.

 

Maybe it was made for someone who liked riding horses wearing breeches and the older style jacket?

[hood 2]

Or perhaps a retired WW1 officer granted a WW2 commission in the Home Guard?

[Stiffy 1]

Or perhaps a retired WW1 officer granted a WW2 commission in the Home Guard?

 

 

No cant be home guard, it has buttons of RAOC.... I will do some more research!

[JohnGresham 0]

Could it once have been used in rep for a theatrical production? Or maybe even part of a movie studio's wardrobe department? That could explain the odd cut for the date made.

[Stiffy 1]

After grabbing a couple of ebay bargains and attending a couple of auctions I have a load of updates for the uniform!

 

 

First off I wanst happy with the colour of the breeches I had, although colour varied the breeches where a grey colour that would not have been allowed. I have picked up 2 other pairs of breeches, both more suited to the uniform

 

The first is in a khaki green woolen material, almost like corderoy.... possible land army from ww2 or possible inter war dispatch riders.

 

 

 

 

 

The second pair are in a lighter tan colour (also acceptable for ww1 officers). I suspect they are made later for the private market but are nearly identicle to those worn in ww1. Sadly they have a few moth holes.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a good example of the 2 different colours courtesy of the fantastic Blackadder goes forth, note they all have khaki except lieutenant george who wears tan. Note that my photos dont really show the colours very well!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Got these wonderful repro collar badges, they are just like the cap badge but half the size. Although not clear in photo they are the correct bronze finish and I have attached them with some original cotter pins I had.

 

 

 

 

Picket this original Late victorian / Edwardian collar pin up from a market (they thought it was just a safety pin!)

 

 

 

 

Here it is in place with the classic "tugged" tie that was the fashion of the time.

 

 

 

 

Finally got the key item that makes it all come together!!! An antique sam brown belt. Very old... a little brittle but have begun restoring and feeding the leather so should be good as new soon.... could be as old as ww1 but very hard to tell as still in service today for dress uniforms.

 

 

 

 

So the basic uniform is really getting there! just short a holster, lanyard, boots and gaitors now!.. oh and still need a strap for the cap. But definitely looks the part now.

 

 

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Stiffy, that is looking great Sir! The Sam Browne you found is a beauty. I'm on the hunt for one now myself for my project, and have a few I am watching online over the next week or so.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

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[CamelB6313 0]

I collect and wear vintage clothing - most of my wardrobe is 1940's and 50's. It's an eccentricity, I know but I like it.

 

Some years ago a friend of mine told me about a former client of his that was selling some clothing- a nice 1920's tuxedo, with tails. Was I interested? Yes, of course, says I. I went out to meet the fellow, and he had all sorts of lovely stuff. He was a retired corporate lawyer who had tons of $$ and was downsizing. We got to talking about antiques, and he says would I like to see his Great Uncle's uniform from the great war? Yes, of course, says I.

 

He pulled out a MINT - I do not exaggerate- MINT, condition RFC officer's uniform. He then went on to tell me that his Great Uncle was one of Richtofen's victims. He wouldn't entertain discussion over selling the uniform (I couldn't afford it's market value anyway), and that he was donating it to the Canadian War Museum.

 

It was pretty cool to see, though.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Very, very cool Camel. I'd like to see some of your vintage outfits. That lawyer didn't give you his uncle's name did he? It would be interesting to look up which one MvR's downings the gentleman was.

 

BTW Camel, since you like vintage attire, have you seen the thread on my French pilot's tunic project?

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

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[CamelB6313 0]

one of my 1940's suits - the jacket was made for my dad back in '47. 1940's silk peekaboo necktie. The gorgeous gal is a friend of mine from Seattle; Miss Kitty Baby. - she's a Burlesque/ Go Go Girl and a (former) US Marine... a triple threat.

 

RAF Louvert, I'll try to find out who the poor unfortunate was the the RB waxed.

Edited December 10, 2009 by CamelB6313

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Great photo and kit Camel, thanks for sharing Sir. Outstanding tie. Even more outstanding date. I have to say though, as with most of us men, you appear to have outkicked your coverage.

 

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[Stiffy 1]

Update on the unusual uniform I found.....

 

Turns out that some british officers still used the old fashioned style right up to 1942, especially if they had a tailor with older patterns.

 

Just sold it on ebay for £92 (bought it for £40)

 

Spent the money on a new item for the uniform.... watch this space!

 

 

[Stiffy 1]

one of my 1940's suits - the jacket was made for my dad back in '47. 1940's silk peekaboo necktie. The gorgeous gal is a friend of mine from Seattle; Miss Kitty Baby. - she's a Burlesque/ Go Go Girl and a (former) US Marine... a triple threat.

 

RAF Louvert, I'll try to find out who the poor unfortunate was the the RB waxed.

 

 

Fantastic! 1940s fashion still looks great today... bring back trilbys and fedoras!

 

Any excuse to dress up is good in my book!

 

Here's me in 1942 arresting a "Spiv" I caught selling silk stockings on the black market. (thats me with the pipe!)

 

 

 

 

And here I am enjoying some Babycham in 1973

 

 

 

 

 

 

And looking like the typical English binge drinker back in 400AD!

 

 

 

I've got some 40s stuff I took on an original camera somewhere.. I'll try to dig it out.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Stiffy

[Rickitycrate 10]

There's a local pizza restraunt here with a Railroad motiff. Photo's from the '30's and 40's on the wall of people onboard trains, walking in the station and so on. Every man, woman and child looks classy and dignified. Suits , hats, heels, dresses very sharp and washed. So far removed from the standards of today's dress.

[Stiffy 1]

Huzzah! New camera for Christmas.

 

 

A couple of updates one a minor detail the other a potential new direction for the jacket.

 

 

First off on another visit to my local army surplus store I discovered they had some british service pistol lanyards in stock, these are similar to those used in the great war. Unfortunately I don't have a pistol as active hand guns are illegal in the UK and it is illegal to trade in replicas... I could get a deactivated service revolver but alot of money for something that doesnt go bang any more!

As a compromise I have tucked the lanyard in to the pocket as was sometimes done if a trench whistle was attached rather than the pistol... I know it doesnt make sense for a pilot to have a whistle but had to put it somewhere!

 

 

 

 

 

Second new item was an ebay find... It is a modified 1960s jacket made to look like an early war "Cuff Rank" Jacket. The fabric tape and pips are spot on may even be surplus originals but more likely repros (ww1 tape is the same as the tape used on sergeants stripes etc from ww2). The Jacket was originally made for a production of "Journeys End" in London's West End so has been modifed to a very high standard. It is fitted with stitched leather buttons which I have now learnt where often permitted for use on original uniforms as an alternative to shiny brass. The pattern of the buttons is correct for the period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am now certain that I want to create an RFC jacket with these cuff ranks as they have a much more iconic look to them as they where only used in ww1 (up to 1917). This jacket however is also not a good fit so I have decided to make my own from another larger jacket! I have already tracked down a source of repro rank tape, all I need now is the correct pattern of jacket to modify... unfortunately my current RFC jacket has the late war 2 piece cuffs and cant be modified to this earlier style.... the hunt continues!

 

 

 

 

Heres a shot of the new jacket with accesories. Very recognisable as a WW1 uniform with these cuffs.

 

 

[Red-Dog 3]

Hi Stiffy it's looking good, by the way you look like a fun guy to be around.

[Stiffy 1]

Lol thanks Red Dog.

 

AS there are silly pictures of OFFers popping up over the forum couldnt resist trying the uniform on for a shot! Had to breath in to get it on though lol.

 

 

[Rickitycrate 10]

Looks good Stiffy. You need a walking stick though.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Not sure that lip stud is regulation, soldier!

 

(Looking quite good though)!

[Siggi 10]

Best I could fine:

 

http://www.tokyohobby.net/marushin-enfield-no-2-mk-i-pfc-model-gun.html

[Stiffy 1]

Best I could fine:

 

http://www.tokyohobb...-model-gun.html

 

ITs nice.... but they didn't use Enfield revolvers in WW1, they used the Webley. Enfiled mark one was replaced in the 1880s with the webley because the enfield wasn't very good! Mark 2 enfield didn't come along until the 1920s. They made damn good short rifles though!

 

Although the enfield is similar the only bit you usually see is the handle poking out of the holster which is very different to the webley, webley is rounded and black, enfield is squared off and wooden.

 

Good find though!... I didnt realise they made a replica of any service revolver.... odd that they chose the crap one to make though lol!

[Olham 164]

Great lords of war - I've only seen all this through now, and I must say,

this is one of the very great ways to give up smoking, Stiffy!

And to prevent a fall back, there are so many other things you could add

to your uniform (a revolver, a Sopwith Camel, an own airfield), that you

would never start smoking again!

 

You might even find the project useful for a little slimming (don't feel offended,

I know I should do something for - or better, against - the "equator increase"

myself).

 

Please show some pics, when you got it all together!