Movie and Book to occupy my time

[Check Six 2]

I read the thread on "Angel's Wings" and while the reviews aren't very glowing, it's about WW1 aviation, so I buzzed off to Amazon and ordered a copy.

 

Whilst there, I saw this...

 

MANNOCK: The Life and Death of Major Edward Mannock VC, DSO, MC, RAF - Norman Franks

 

 

http://www.amazon.co...60372806&sr=1-1

 

Has anyone read it? Apparently THE definitive book on Mick Mannock, and details of his life and death, exact details of his final resting place, and Norman Franks correspondence with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to recognise that this is Mannock's grave. (I believe it is "unknown airman" grave at present).

 

I'd appreciate any reviews or opinions. Really immaterial as I ordered it anyway.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Good for you Check Six. I have read portions of that book and you will not be disappointed Sir. BTW, here is the last known photo of Mick, and IMHO one of the most haunting images I have ever run across. Look at the pain in that man's eyes and then look into the nearly-vacant gaze of the French peasant girl. Now try to imagine what each has seen since the War began.

 

 

 

 

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[Check Six 2]

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Good for you Check Six. I have read portions of that book and you will not be disappointed Sir. BTW, here is the last known photo of Mick, and IMHO one of the most haunting images I have ever run across. Look at the pain in that man's eyes and then look into the nearly-vacant gaze of the French peasant girl. Now try to imagine what each has seen since the War began.

 

 

 

 

.

 

I find another image of another famous ace very haunting.

 

 

 

 

The first photo shows him a recipient of the Pour le Merite, awarded to him in January 1916. Look at his eyes in the second photo. The PAIN he has seen.

I don't know when the photo was taken, but he could not have been any older that 25, as that was his age at his passing in October 1916. There can be no more than 9 months between the two photos. He has aged twenty years!

 

Scary.

 

Mick Mannock was considerably older than most of his contemporaries, and had endured internment at the outbreak of WW1, and there is no doubt that he saw much suffering, so it is not really surprising that he looks so...haunted. Boelcke at 24 or 25 is frightening.

 

I sincerely hope the child lived a LONG way from the front lines. Still, living in Paris, she would have seen much hardship. For such a young one, it is heart-wrenching.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Yes Check Six, that image of Boelcke is another one indeed and very telling. But for me it is the juxtaposition of Mannock and the little girl that makes it "most haunting". And I too would like to think she lived a long way from the front, but given the rural setting and the fact that the RFC squadrons were often stationed within just a few miles of the fighting, I fear she saw far too much for one so young.

 

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[Olham 164]

There are more pictures telling the same dark story. Lothar von Richthofen in hospital

with the gear to hold his fractured jaw together, staring into the camera in a failing attempt

to look optimistic. One photograph of Berthold, where it's really visible how much he must

have been drinking recently.

 

Hope you guys won't be disappointed by the movie - it is not at all an action movie.

[Olham 164]

I have been thinking about the question, why I like to play fighter pilot.

Here is my answer.

I believe that us men have a very old hunting instinct and even desire in us.

I never met a woman yet, who understands this sim, or any other combat sim.

 

But men have a different relationship to hunting, and to the weapons they use.

To check, to hold or to inspect a good weapon, causes feelings like respect and

a form of sympathy to the well made object, and maybe the maker of it.

 

A fighter aircraft is now the highest evolutionary form of a weapon. When I'm flying it,

I am the only one who controlls and uses it. I am in the moments of fighting absolutely

independant. And I duel with another warrior using a similarly high evolutionary form of

a weapon.

The mix of excitement and sheer stress, that comes up and causes a rush of adrenalin,

must be a very old experience - older than language. To fight a fight well, precise and

cool, decides about whether you win it or not. In our evolutionary days, that was a decision

of life or death - existance or oblivion.

 

I believe, it's still in our genes. And I don't think, we like the slaughter. We don't like to

hurt and see the terrible wounds, or the death (except when we really hate an enemy,

may be) - what we like is to win a fight.

To beat opponents. To be superiour. To be independent.

 

 

Edit: I forgot the "tribal aspect".

Although the fight in a fighter craft is a most independent form of fighting, all fighters belong

to one tribe or the other. And they mark their aircraft with signs for the tribes, which have to

be most visible like statements.

In addition, there may be individual markings of each warrior painted on his craft. And the

markings of the really great warriors are known among his enemies.

Had the Entente pilots not been forbidden to go as far as the Germans - I'm pretty sure they

would have painted their craft in similar ways.

 

It's all about our main evolutionary power/drive: competition.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Olham

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I have given this a lot of thought over the years as well and I believe you've hit it right on the head Olham. We are hard-wired for it, we love the thrill of the hunt. We yearn to throw ourselves into harm's way in an attempt to best another, be it man or beast. And now, in these times, as we grow older we no longer have to give up the chase but instead can continue it here with such outlets as BHaH. We are no longer relegated to the fireside swapping old war stories with other old farts. Now we can sit by the fireside with other old farts and swap new war stories.

 

And Sieben, an excellent Robert E. Lee quote Sir.

 

.

[Creaghorn 10]

I have been thinking about the question, why I like to play fighter pilot.

Here is my answer.

I believe that us men have a very old hunting instinct and even desire in us.

I never met a woman yet, who understands this sim, or any other combat sim.

 

But men have a different relationship to hunting, and to the weapons they use.

To check, to hold or to inspect a good weapon, causes feelings like respect and

a form of sympathy to the well made object, and maybe the maker of it.

 

A fighter aircraft is now the highest evolutionary form of a weapon. When I'm flying it,

I am the only one who controlls and uses it. I am in the moments of fighting absolutely

independant. And I duel with another warrior using a similarly high evolutionary form of

a weapon.

The mix of excitement and sheer stress, that comes up and causes a rush of adrenalin,

must be a very old experience - older than language. To fight a fight well, precise and

cool, decides about whether you win it or not. In our evolutionary days, that was a decision

of life or death - existance or oblivion.

 

I believe, it's still in our genes. And I don't think, we like the slaughter. We don't like to

hurt and see the terrible wounds, or the death (except when we really hate an enemy,

may be) - what we like is to win a fight.

To beat opponents. To be superiour. To be independant.

 

all that "I'm better than you" is in men's instincts. especially in males instincts. the need to conquer etc. that's the reason why there are sports nowadays. a sport where one can't win or lose is no sport. that's a good substitute for wars where one clan doesn't need to slaughter another clan just to show they are superior. competition is in humans nature. everbody knows that the grass on his side is always greener than the grass on the neighbour village. one village is always rival to the next. one town always rival to the next bigger town in the area. one country rival to the next country etc.

[Von Paulus 8]

I find another image of another famous ace very haunting.

 

 

 

 

The first photo shows him a recipient of the Pour le Merite, awarded to him in January 1916. Look at his eyes in the second photo. The PAIN he has seen.

I don't know when the photo was taken, but he could not have been any older that 25, as that was his age at his passing in October 1916. There can be no more than 9 months between the two photos. He has aged twenty years!

 

Scary.

 

Mick Mannock was considerably older than most of his contemporaries, and had endured internment at the outbreak of WW1, and there is no doubt that he saw much suffering, so it is not really surprising that he looks so...haunted. Boelcke at 24 or 25 is frightening.

 

I sincerely hope the child lived a LONG way from the front lines. Still, living in Paris, she would have seen much hardship. For such a young one, it is heart-wrenching.

 

I find most pictures of WWI haunting one way or another.

The theme itself has been haunting me since I was a little kid and saw the BBC Documentary series "The Great War". That and the "World at War" and witnessing on the TV such events like the farewell of Portuguese soldiers fighting in the Portuguese Colonial War, have marked me in a permanent way.

 

I don't play games for the pleasure of competition or I don't even found much of myself on the hunter/hunted role. First in general I only play games that offer me some degree of immersion. What I'm looking is more an "extension" of what I read in the books or what I see in the movies or the TV.

I'm notsaying that sometimes I don't find myself thrilled with the competition. But that's not my basic motto.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Von Paulus

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

Actually, besides the competition which is enjoyable, I think it has a lot to do with reading.

I read voratiously as a young man, and it was the biplanes that always interested me the most, more than any other plane.

When I first played "Red Baron" in the arcades (remember that game?) it finally put me where the books had put me....right in the pilot seat. That experience was fueled by Richtofen's War (the old avalon hill bookshelf game)...but it was still in my imagination.

When Wings came out for the Amiga, then it was less about my imagination and more about the immersion.

 

So....immersion that once was from books, is augmented and trumped by video games.

It's about the immersion of the experience.

 

I bought "winged victory" by Yeates and am reading it slowly, but it doesnt compare to flying and hearing the sounds....

 

That's my thought on the question.

Good question btw.

[Wels 2]

Hello,

regarding Mick Mannock, i have not yet read it but hope i will one day. As far as i know he was working for a british telegraph company in Turkey, when war broke out. He was then captured and imprisoned, in very bad "circumstances" (maybe like you would expect from turkish prisons of the time), and for what i read he was also tortured many times. This also explains his hate against Germans, in fact he was only relieved from prison and sent to England, because the turkish thought he would not live very much longer, let alone be able to fight in the war - this is all hearsay, never read a good book about it yet, but it would also explain the suffering in his face.

Greetings,

Catfish

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Wels, you are quite right about the info concerning Mick. He was near death when finally released from prison which makes his recovery and rise to fame as an ace even more amazing, and poignant.

 

 

To the immersion factor as mentioned by Von Paulus and BuB, I absolutely agree. More than any other factor it is the immersion that draws me to the WWI combat flight sims in general, and BHaH in particular. I want to try and understand, as much as possible, the experiences our Great War counterparts went through. Be it the tedium of dud weather and flightless days on end; the tension and exhaustion of the "long reconn"; the exhilaration of the hunt; or the terror of the death spiral; I want it all as much as is possible from the relative safety and comfort of my virtual cockpit.

 

.

[Check Six 2]

Hello,

regarding Mick Mannock, i have not yet read it but hope i will one day. As far as i know he was working for a british telegraph company in Turkey, when war broke out. He was then captured and imprisoned, in very bad "circumstances" (maybe like you would expect from turkish prisons of the time), and for what i read he was also tortured many times. This also explains his hate against Germans, in fact he was only relieved from prison and sent to England, because the turkish thought he would not live very much longer, let alone be able to fight in the war - this is all hearsay, never read a good book about it yet, but it would also explain the suffering in his face.

Greetings,

Catfish

 

 

You can get a partial idea by the temporary imprisonment in a Turkish prison at that time by watching the brilliant film "Lawrence of Arabia". The transformation of Lawrence after his "release" to a "NO PRISONERS!!!" character is very moving. Lawrence never spoke of his treatment inside the Turkish prison, though he alluded to it only slightly in "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". (And he only spent a few days in there - to be fair, he was a suspected spy, and was treated harshly...Mannock, as a civilian unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time SHOULD have been treated merely as a detainee...but who knows what went on...and if he saw the harsh treatment of others).

 

Speaking of which...there is ANOTHER great book. One of the finest books I have ever read...T.E. Lawrence "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". A thoroughly remarkable book, made even more remarkable by the fact he wrote it from memory. He lost the manuscript and his diaries and notes on a train somewhere, and had to hurriedly re-write it. If you get the chance to read this, please do so.

[Von Paulus 8]

You can get a partial idea by the temporary imprisonment in a Turkish prison at that time by watching the brilliant film "Lawrence of Arabia". The transformation of Lawrence after his "release" to a "NO PRISONERS!!!" character is very moving. Lawrence never spoke of his treatment inside the Turkish prison, though he alluded to it only slightly in "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". (And he only spent a few days in there - to be fair, he was a suspected spy, and was treated harshly...

The look of the Turkish Officer at the end of that scene, after re-watching it when I was already an adult, left me with no doubts what was going to happen next in the movie.

I've a copy of the "Seven Pillars" but I haven't read it yet. It's among a huge pile of WWI related books waiting to be read.

 

If I may, I'd like to left here a suggestion for WWI reading: "The Price of Glory" from Alistair Horne and last but not the least "The First Day on the Somme" by Martin Middlebrook. Two classical WWI books, that in my case, expect a full re-reading.

 

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Price-Glory-Verdun-Penguin-History/dp/0140170413/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260462229&sr=8-2

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Day-Somme-Penguin-History/dp/0140171347/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260462362&sr=1-1

 

I order for Christmas "Falling Aces" from Peter Hart and am looking, maybe my next acquisition, to "The Somme" by the same author.

[JimAttrill 24]

I have a hardback copy of 'king of air fighters' by Ira Jones (later Wing Commander in WWII). Mannock was quite something and had a score much higher than his 'official' score.

 

Btw that photo of him with the young French girl only surfaced this year after all that time.

[Kingkat 1]

I am currently reading, "The Few" by Alex Kershaw. The story of Americans in Battle of Britain during WW2. I realise its not WW1 era, but a good read. Next will be "Bloody April". WW1 action.

 

Good question about us "guys and games". I have wondered what WE guys have that the females do not experience, or understand. (they have child birth..........we donot!) That seems to fulfill their instincts as a woman. So I wonder what is it for us?

 

Maybe it IS warfare. Ultimate sacrifice, eternal brotherhood, lasting allegiance to a nation or cause. The need to belong to a group, clan,organization that has a common purpose. So we all like to play at this. The immersion factor is necessary for full enjoyment.

 

Its probably why I enjoy games.