AI scouts now behave like two seaters should

[Creaghorn 10]

AI scouts are pretty much lacking aggressiveness, glad the devs are looking for sorting this glitch out.

 

nonetheless the current behaviour of AI scouts in HITR looks for me more like it would fit perfectly in behaviour for two seaters. Evasive, but not too exaggregated, sometimes little aggression for a pass, but otherwise harmless. more or less circling and fighting for height (what Bullethead refers as lufbery circle).

 

it would be perfect if AI scouts would act as prior HITR, with additionally trying to keep height as now, and two seaters should get this AI the current scouts have now in HITR. with their task of bombing and reconoissance they probably wouldn't attack you if not molested, as neither pre HITR scouts did when on a strafing mission.

maybe this "glitch" in AI behaviour could be useful for twoseaters?

 

maybe worth a thought for the devs? just an idea.

[Olham 164]

I think I have second thoughts after early complaints.

I just had a fight with SPAD VII over more than 20 minutes. All my 6 wingmen

came back home with me alive! And although it took long, it was intense and

full of action. Gontermann shot one down, that I saw. Most stayed high up,

and the fast and powerful SPADs where difficult to reach at all.

 

Maybe that they are not so aggressive anymore - but the fight and the outcome

seems still far more realistic to me.

[themightysrc 5]

"Maybe that they are not so aggressive anymore - but the fight and the outcome

seems still far more realistic to me."

 

Or maybe they all now fight within their capabilities with a due regard to their mortality? The only gripe I've ever had with the AI is that it is insanely aggressive, and dogfights - invariably to the death - develop at the drop of a hat (in the ring, natch). I've just finished rereading 'No Parachute' and it's quite apparent that that degree of derring do (aka, no sense of self-preservation) simply didn't happen. If it's finally been fixed, then I'll be very pleased.

 

Downloaded Hitr at lunchtime. Now home. Make sickly wifey her snap, then I'm off to load it up and have a good look round our new - and I hope more realistic - universe.

 

Cheers,

Si

[Stiffy 1]

AI scouts are pretty much lacking aggressiveness, glad the devs are looking for sorting this glitch out.

 

nonetheless the current behaviour of AI scouts in HITR looks for me more like it would fit perfectly in behaviour for two seaters. Evasive, but not too exaggregated, sometimes little aggression for a pass, but otherwise harmless. more or less circling and fighting for height (what Bullethead refers as lufbery circle).

 

it would be perfect if AI scouts would act as prior HITR, with additionally trying to keep height as now, and two seaters should get this AI the current scouts have now in HITR. with their task of bombing and reconoissance they probably wouldn't attack you if not molested, as neither pre HITR scouts did when on a strafing mission.

maybe this "glitch" in AI behaviour could be useful for twoseaters?

 

maybe worth a thought for the devs? just an idea.

 

This has come up before I think, trouble is not all 2 seaters should behave the same... an FE2 should act far more like a fighter but concentrating on evasion while the gunner takes the shots...

 

BE2 is the worst as it doesnt act anything like the real thing, they where designed to be aggresive in combat with a fixed front facing gun, not defensive... It should try to turn constantly to get you in it's sights not just sit there as if it has a rear gunner. If they didn't dogfight they would not have bothered with the weight of a gun at the front.

 

Still not clear why it can't be corrected as the German 2 seaters dog fight properly.

 

 

It is a bit of a myth that 2 seaters just plodded along... they where designed to fight... BE2 was an early dogfighter... FE2 shot down more Fokkers than the DH2.... Bristol fighter was just that, a fighter.

 

Havent played the new addon yet so hopefully much of this may have been fixed!

[Olham 164]

It's a funny world - I would have thought, this is now more to your likes, Creaghorn.

But now it isn't - or maybe we all see a different AI, depending on the machine we

play it on?

[themightysrc 5]

"BE2 is the worst as it doesnt act anything like the real thing, they where designed to be aggresive in combat with a fixed front facing gun, not defensive... It should try to turn constantly to get you in it's sights not just sit there as if it has a rear gunner. If they didn't dogfight they would not have bothered with the weight of a gun at the front."

 

Siggi,

 

I'm probably wrong about this, but my impression was that the BE2(x) was just a bog standard RFC machine for all purposes, rather than a scout. AFAIK, they didn't mount a FF gun, and only had the rear facing one with the appalling field of fire added after it became obvious that crews needed something more effective than harsh language to fling at attackers. The BE12 was the laughable attempt to make it a single seat scout (and a lamentable failure), but the BE was renowned for its benign handling characteristics - stable, predictable and hard to crash: not exactly scout characteristics!

 

<on edit>

 

Please, gentle OBD readers: ditch that forward firing gun and put in the obtrusive backward firing gun - that would certainly be more historically correct, surely. And I promise not to call you Shirley again.

Edited December 14, 2009 by themightysrc

[Stiffy 1]

"BE2 is the worst as it doesnt act anything like the real thing, they where designed to be aggresive in combat with a fixed front facing gun, not defensive... It should try to turn constantly to get you in it's sights not just sit there as if it has a rear gunner. If they didn't dogfight they would not have bothered with the weight of a gun at the front."

 

Siggi,

 

I'm probably wrong about this, but my impression was that the BE2(x) was just a bog standard RFC machine for all purposes, rather than a scout. AFAIK, they didn't mount a FF gun, and only had the rear facing one with the appalling field of fire added after it became obvious that crews needed something more effective than harsh language to fling at attackers. The BE12 was the laughable attempt to make it a single seat scout (and a lamentable failure), but the BE was renowned for its benign handling characteristics - stable, predictable and hard to crash: not exactly scout characteristics!

 

<on edit>

 

Please, gentle OBD readers: ditch that forward firing gun and put in the obtrusive backward firing gun - that would certainly be more historically correct, surely. And I promise not to call you Shirley again.

 

 

Hmm thats odd I'm sure it has a front mounted gun in BHAH..... I'll have to check!

 

Another point is they never have an observer gun in BHAH... in reality they had one unless they where carrying a heavy bomb load... havent seen one firing backwards yet in BHAH

 

Apparantly the observers gun could be moved to 4 different positions... but had to be unbolted and physically lifted in flight!

 

And I quite agree that it should be no match for a decent fighter.... but it shouldnt sit flying straight as if the pilot is asleep either!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Albert Ball who described it as "A bloody awful plane!"

[Hasse Wind 46]

I shot down a Sopwith Pup a short while ago. I was flying the DFW, of all planes. The Pup behaved much more like a two-seater should behave. It could have been believable with a green pilot, but the guy was an ace from RNAS 3.

 

If it had been a two-seater, its maneuvers would have been appropriate. For a fighter, I think it was far too passive performance for an ace pilot.

 

Transfer this behaviour to two-seaters and make the fighters again more aggressive, and OFF will be perfect.

[Stiffy 1]

come to think of it... I'm not even sure you sit in the correct seat in OFF... in early BE2s the pilot should be in the back seat with the observer in front... late models switched positions.

[Creaghorn 10]

I shot down a Sopwith Pup a short while ago. I was flying the DFW, of all planes. The Pup behaved much more like a two-seater should behave. It could have been believable with a green pilot, but the guy was an ace from RNAS 3.

 

If it had been a two-seater, its maneuvers would have been appropriate. For a fighter, I think it was far too passive performance for an ace pilot.

 

Transfer this behaviour to two-seaters and make the fighters again more aggressive, and OFF will be perfect.

 

 

thank you .

[Creaghorn 10]

It's a funny world - I would have thought, this is now more to your likes, Creaghorn.

But now it isn't - or maybe we all see a different AI, depending on the machine we

play it on?

 

 

my rig is on fine settings. scenerie and terrain on 3 and clouds, effects and clouds on 5. i also tried it upper and lower.

don't get me wrong. i like the new addon with it's buffeting etc. but AI is simply too harmless. i just screw my campaign because i shot down several AI while yawning and didn't claim them. it was simply no fun and competitive. usually i triplecheck my six before engaging. right know i dont look even once behind. just going for attack, then to the next etc. i flew straight and did nothing inmidst of a furball just to find out how long it takes to get attention. i could have easly make a cup of coffee before evading. as siggi said, i was more like beeing a reporter at the front.

 

perfectly would be the prior AI scout WITH trying to stay high as it is now. hope the devs can get it sorted

[Hasse Wind 46]

Well at least we are on the right track now, making progress with the AI. With some tweaks this can lead to something extraordinary.

[JimAttrill 24]

The Be2 was what it was designed to be - a stable observation aeroplane which eventually was also used for photography work and artillery observation. When it was originally designed it could not be shot down by other aircraft because they did not carry more than a rifle or a pistol. The pilot was behind the observer, and when the observer eventually got a machine gun it could not really be fired anywhere without hitting bits of the Be2. As usual with the British Army, it carried on being produced long after it was obsolete and many poor men were sent out to their deaths. Its replacement was somewhat better eventually, the RE8 which at least had the observer/gunner behind the pilot with a better field of fire.

 

With any aircraft the designer has a choice between stability and manoeverabilty. Maybe with fly-by-wire and computers you can have the best of both worlds but in WWI you could not. Especially as most pilots hardly knew how to fly at all, the Be2 kept them alive until they were shot down.

[themightysrc 5]

"Hmm thats odd I'm sure it has a front mounted gun in BHAH..... I'll have to check!

 

Another point is they never have an observer gun in BHAH... in reality they had one unless they where carrying a heavy bomb load... havent seen one firing backwards yet in BHAH"

 

No Siggi, you're spot on: BH&H BE2s do have a front mounted gun, and nowt for the observer - that was actually my point!

[Siggi 10]

"Hmm thats odd I'm sure it has a front mounted gun in BHAH..... I'll have to check!

 

Another point is they never have an observer gun in BHAH... in reality they had one unless they where carrying a heavy bomb load... havent seen one firing backwards yet in BHAH"

 

No Siggi, you're spot on: BH&H BE2s do have a front mounted gun, and nowt for the observer - that was actually my point!

 

Stiffy, not Siggi.

[Bandy 3]

Wow! Glad I've seen this thread, because I was getting worried I had botched my HITR install! Only getting a chance to play it extensively today (sick day from work) and was a both pleased with many aspects, yet disappointed with the AI vs. player activity.

 

The lack luster performance ranges from EIII's, Halb's, to Alb DV's from what I see so far, though when AI vs. AI fight each other they seem to put on a relatively good show. Very odd.

 

EDIT: forgot to mention fighting against ace AI in QC...

 

It will be corrected, of that I have no doubt. Meanwhile thanks.

Edited December 14, 2009 by B Bandy RFC

[+Polovski 460]

As per the known issues it's not working properly, not much point in discussing how what why it affects at this stage as it's not working properly ;)

 

It will soon be back to P3 standard where it should be - hang in there guys.

 

Any major changes from that will be in a future addon or P4.

[andqui 1]

I would just like to say that I think the most immersive thing in this game is to have a dogfight, stay alive, maybe get a kill, and return to base with my wingmen. As it is now on standard P3, I return alone on the deck 1/2 of the time there is a fight because the AI doesn't know when to call it quits and fights to the death. I don't have HITR yet, but when people say that in a dogfight they spend their time circling, and there's occasionally one or two kills, that's fairly realistic. Now I realize that there were many furious, bloody dogfights that happened, but the majority of them did happen like this. Very rarely did a whole unit of planes get shot down with no survivors, but that's the norm in p3 now whenever an engagement takes place.

 

Now, what I can't say anything about is the lack of evasive reaction and the other issues. That is, as many others have pointed out, wrong, and is in the process of being fixed. But I would just like to point out that the behavior mentioned above was how a typical small-scale ww1 dogfight/skirmish took place, and that that number of casualties sounds about right for realism. If the dev's could keep this in mind, that would be great. I'm planning to get the addon as soon as finances allow.

 

thanks

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Good news, everyone!

 

Known issues Updated Asof 15/12/09:

 

6) AI skill issues - AI skill is lower than it should be. - Fixed for HitR Patch 1.46

 

All hail to the Dev's! I'd let everyone of OBD marry my daughter, is she wasn't already married!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

I had a dogfight with my 4 wingmen against four DVa's. I shot down two and ran out of ammo on the third. In the process they shot down all four of my wingmen and at least one chased me to my own lines. I continued to draw away from him and a few miles on my side of the lines, I saw him turn back. Another time, my flight encountered a flight of Alb's. I closed on the tail and drew lead on an Alb DII when suddenly I was hit. I looked behind me and saw the Alb DIII who a second later killed me. AI seems pretty good and realistic to me so far.

[VonGuber 2]

"Maybe that they are not so aggressive anymore - but the fight and the outcome

seems still far more realistic to me."

 

Or maybe they all now fight within their capabilities with a due regard to their mortality? The only gripe I've ever had with the AI is that it is insanely aggressive, and dogfights - invariably to the death - develop at the drop of a hat (in the ring, natch). I've just finished rereading 'No Parachute' and it's quite apparent that that degree of derring do (aka, no sense of self-preservation) simply didn't happen. If it's finally been fixed, then I'll be very pleased.

 

Downloaded Hitr at lunchtime. Now home. Make sickly wifey her snap, then I'm off to load it up and have a good look round our new - and I hope more realistic - universe.

 

Cheers,

Si

 

I agree, and with Olhams' earlier post as well. I've flown several missions today in various planes to see what happens. Not QC missions, mind you, but in campaign mode. So far most of the AI looked pretty good. One fight vs Jasta 4 for example...loads of aces, they dropped a lot of our Nupes, but stayed, high, did the zoom and boom thing and then disengaged until they could get on another target...sort of like I'd do if I were them. The last fight was N28s v. DvAs, 4 against 6, at least 3 German aces. Americans downed 2, with my plane damaged and a wingman injured. Americans were able to get away from the combat and head for home, the Germans let them. I thought it was about right for a 15 minute fight...

I also have thought that the aggressive behaviour of AI before was over the top. Perhaps some of the top aces could be more aggressive, but frankly I was getting tired of the fly-upside-down-and-make-90-degree-turns-while-diving-vertically-in-an-N17-behavior. When the AI gets 'scaled' to reasonable and proper skill levels, it will be great.

 

On the upside, still a good update, IMO. It will be a GREAT update when fully tweaked, as we know it will be.

 

not trying to , but wanted to provide some feedback.

[Stiffy 1]

The Be2 was what it was designed to be - a stable observation aeroplane which eventually was also used for photography work and artillery observation. When it was originally designed it could not be shot down by other aircraft because they did not carry more than a rifle or a pistol. The pilot was behind the observer, and when the observer eventually got a machine gun it could not really be fired anywhere without hitting bits of the Be2. As usual with the British Army, it carried on being produced long after it was obsolete and many poor men were sent out to their deaths. Its replacement was somewhat better eventually, the RE8 which at least had the observer/gunner behind the pilot with a better field of fire.

 

With any aircraft the designer has a choice between stability and manoeverabilty. Maybe with fly-by-wire and computers you can have the best of both worlds but in WWI you could not. Especially as most pilots hardly knew how to fly at all, the Be2 kept them alive until they were shot down.

 

Definitely not suggesting the BE2 is anything other than a pig!... but ridiculous to assume it is correct for the pilot to just sit there reading his newspaper while you shoot him down... should at least try to evade.... I have shot them down without them even once banking slightly, just plodding along in a straight line.

 

 

As for flying style I had based my assumption that it should be agressive rather than defensive on the fixed front gun.... didn't realise OBD had got it wrong! doesnt happen often!.... certainly cant find anything to support the presence of a fixed gun online...

 

 

OBD please either wake the pilot up or give at least some BE2 flights the correct observer gun firing backwards over the pilots head! At the moment they are just a pigeon shoot for the Hun!