Damage Model Discussion--HPW Campaign DM released!

[+Polovski 441]

The damage box for the pilot is plenty big enough - BUT make sure your CFS3.exe is not a v3.0 one or you will likely hit not much close up (see sticky).

 

The aileron cables are very thin - oddly, about the size of a cable. The sim does have reasonable limits for box sizes but even so they are fine. All boxes are carefully placed and assessed including pilots, given their real position and parts around them etc. Also we allow for hits from above and below and side on in many, not easy.

 

To be fair the engine and pilot were the well known weak spots we think we have it spot on they are generally weak and reasonable to hit.

 

We have been around full circle making the correct balance between people wanting to see more booms, or less, or less control loss before losing the wings etc.

Now there are plenty other options in the settings for better/worse AI gun settings pilot gun settings whatever, which should help many wanting to see more/less booms/kills etc.

 

Stick the gun spread on wider and AI guns worse job done for most people.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Pol,

 

I certainly don't mean to denigrate your work in any way. You guys have done a fantastic job of researching and modeling and testing and remodeling and retesting and so on every model of every aeroplane in this wonderful sim. I'm sure the amount of time you and the other OBD team members have spent on getting everything as close to perfect as possible must be in the range of thousands of hours. So, there is no way that I, or any other single person could even hope in their wildest dreams to come within even a light year of duplicating your accomplishments.

 

I have no illusions that very many people are interested in or will even contemplate using my mod, if I even release an update based on HITR. I see that a grand total of 12 people have said they may use the mod, if I release one. So, most of my work is purely because I get a kick out of it. For what reason, God only knows! I just thought some people might enjoy hearing about some of my "experiments." I mean no offense.

 

Cheers!

Edited December 26, 2009 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[ConradB 0]

Thanks Polovski. I have the base CFS3 up to 3.1. It came with the Firepower add-on, but since I don't fly the vanilla version I only use the Firepower disk for the update anymore. Too bad CFS3 was done in the way that it was, as it had good potential, but I never cared for it's approach. I liked the way the 8th used to let the escorts chase the fighters down to the deck, and "beat" anything up on the way home with whatever ammo was left. That would have been neat to have it set up that way.

 

Anyways, I'll just keep shootin' in close until I figure it out. Once I do, I'll knock 'em down like flies. I already have it to where I bring a scout down with 150 to 200 rounds with twin Spandaus, or Vickers. So I'm doing better. But I have been changing my strategy by doing a little damage to an E/A, and letting the squadmates finish them off, even if I don't get credit for it. Seems to be helping with AI pilots in the squadron. They aren't coming missing as often, or KIA.

[GeorgeBoles 0]

Hi Propwasche (and Pol if you are still watching this thread),

 

I wrote to you about this a little while ago. Since Pol might be still watching this thread (Merry Christmas to your All, too, by the way!), in 1.32 versions (I am just downloading Hat In the Ring right now), it appeared to me that my shooting was too deadly. At ranges of about 150 feet, I was hitting the AI planes, and from about 100 feet shooting them down, with them often losing a huge wing section as their mode of demise. (The planes appear small enough on the screen that I am shooting at the overall plane, rather than any particular part of it for a lot of my shooting.) I was getting 2.5 - 3.5 planes shot down in a round of Quick Combat before my engine was damaged too badly to fight or I had lost control of my aeroplane and crashed dismally into mother earth. But I know that I am a hopeless shot and, until I saw Polovski's explanation above, I thought that the hit boxes must be quite large. (In comparison, I could only shoot down about one enemy aircraft with a whole plane full of ammunition when using Western Front Patch2 or upgrades in Red Baron.)

 

Pol, are the hitboxes for the wings about the size of the various parts of the wing?

 

If not, is there a way of toughening up individual structures which might eventually frustrate me. (But, at present I am going through the phase of enjoying watching the bits fly off the enemies' wings when up close or the flames coming from the engine. Makes me feel manly !)

 

But please note:

 

I haven't played the OFF a lot and could be just so totally wrong, and

I haven't tried the HITR expansion pack yet,

 

so either way my scribblings could be non-contributory twitter.

 

Thanks to Pol and the other developers for a fun game anyhow, which I will be playing for quite a while to come.

 

Regards,

George.

 

P.S. I am using the cfs.exe which came with the Ubisoft DVD version of CFS3, (version 3.1.0.30203).

[ConradB 0]

George, in the Workshops, you can reduce the strength of you bullets unless you've already done this. I think you can also adjust the size of the "spray" from your guns, along with the AI. Just a couple ideas.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Welcome to the main forum pages, George.

 

Pol, are the hitboxes for the wings about the size of the various parts of the wing?

The hitboxes appear to be very close to the actual size of the wings, given the limitation that the boxes have to be made up of roughly rectangular shapes, whilst wings are slightly curved.

 

If not, is there a way of toughening up individual structures which might eventually frustrate me.

Yes. You can adjust the strength of various components by modifying the aircraft .xdp files. For the wings, you can either adjust the number of hit points, or alter the "threshold values," particularly the so-called "break" points. I have had some success doing either one or both. One word of warning, however. If you desire to play any MP, every player in MP MUST have identical .xdp files for every aeroplane in the sim or you will not be able to fly.

 

PM me if you would like me to send you an .xdp file of one of the airplanes with some of my modifications for you to test.

[+Polovski 441]

Thanks Chris no problem mods are fine of course but I just like people to know that a lot of care has been taken with what is out there already - and some things are for not always obvious reasons.

 

HitR is better all round I think anyway.

So George I think you'll find HitR a tougher proposition, it's not so obvious you have hit at range, and also with wind/buffet effect spoiling your aim some it should be trickier. As with all sims, as has been discussed many times, we all have 1000s of more hours "flying" than many of the pilots did back then, some of us are now good at killing a dot at range, many people are also trained pilots. It's such a fine balancing act. Hence the workshop where you can make things easier or tougher too usually.

 

Hit boxes are the same size as the parts, they cannot always be exactly the same curve or whatever but they are in the right place unless there is a technical reason why it cannot be occassinally, and the right sizes.

[Duce Lewis 3]

Other than the aileron cables, my biggest issue is with the abundant flamers and sparcity of smoke

In RL most AC went down smoking heavily

I'd like an occasional flamer but there's too many, IMHO

What I'd like to see are more black smoke, most just let out a thin trail

I must say, the quality of the Flame DM is much better though ...very relistic looking

 

Damage depends upon at least (probably more) factors: size and placement of damage box, total number of damage points, and threshold effects, which are triggered when a certain percentage of damage points have been taken by the object.

Herr Prop Washe, Great explanation

What happens to a round after it hits a Damage Box?

Does it pass through and hit the next one?

Are some DB's porous and others (ie. engine) opaque?

 

The aileron cables are very thin - oddly, about the size of a cable. The sim does have reasonable limits for box sizes but even so they are fine. All boxes are carefully placed

Pol, there might be another factor

I saw an episode of Mythbusters where they were testing the Hollywood Cowboy shooting his partners rope as he's being hung

They foung that even if they hit it, the rope tended to move sideways and the bullet deflect

Breaking the rope was near impossible and they "Busted" the myth

[+Polovski 441]

Sparcity of smoke? I see lots all the time. Make sure your effects slider is 5?

 

We didn't make the code to hit cables, so I have no idea how easy it is to damage, but you also have to include the controls, the pulleys, joints and other parts of splintered wood jamming the cables etc.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Regarding aileron cables, I have a trick you might try. In the .xdp file of your chosen airplane, in the damage box section look for the following code

 

 	<Box ID="damagebox_canopy3" Parent="Damagebox_r_horizontal2">
	<BoxMap SystemID="aileron_left_cable" Probability="100" Points="18"/>
	</Box>

and change the Probability value from "100" to "80" or "90." At first, I changed this value to 65 and noticed an immediate reduction in the probability of the AI damaging my aileron cables. As a somewhat pleasant (if bittersweet) side effect, I observed more damage to my aircraft on the wings and fuselage, presumably because the airplane was not being deemed immediately un-flyable by the game engine due to control cable failure. If you change the probability of the aircraft you are flying against, you will also see this affect aircraft flown by the AI.

 

As you noted, striking a rounded wire with a small caliber projectile is somewhat difficult. Reducing the probability of a "hit" from 100% to 80% seems to me to be a better approximation of the overall physics of the situation, considering angles, trajectories, ballistics, etc. Of course, Pol also makes a good point that hitting a pulley, etc. is also represented, so you may wish to increase the percentage chance a bit to suit your own preferences.

[Duce Lewis 3]

Sparcity of smoke? I see lots all the time. Make sure your effects slider is 5?

Thanks Pol, I checked and had Effects on 3

Do doubt tweaked it down a while back trying for more performance

Upped it to 5 and sent off to try and verify the improvement

Unfortunately, all I've been able to do is get shot down once LOL!

I'll keep patrolling and see what happens

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Dear Friends of OFF,

 

Here is a brief update on the damage model mod I am currently working on for HITR. At this point I have experimented with several planes for both the Allied and Central Powers and think I am at the point where I can apply most of my dm changes to all of the Quick Combat planes in HITR. After a little more testing and tweaking in QC, I will release the mod to the public. Since I am only a one man operation, however, this first release will have to be a beta release because I cannot hope to adequately test by myself all of the aircraft that currently exist in OFF. Therefore, I will be depending upon the rest of you to give me feedback about any problems or inconsistencies you may experience with the beta damage model so I can go about fixing or improving it. Even better, if anyone would like to help me out by becoming an “official” beta tester, please respond either by PM or by posting a reply to this thread. Having some beta testers would be of great help in testing the many variants that exist in OFF to make sure that none are out of line with the rest of the models. If I get enough help, I should be able to release a DM for use in both QC and the campaign in the fairly near future.

 

Later today I will give anyone who is interested a more detailed description of what I hope to accomplish with this new alternative damage model. Cheers, and happy flying!

 

[Mr. Lucky 0]

My main damage complaint has always been the disabling of my ailerons with the first hit. Something I read here bothers me. It makes sense that the aileron cables are very thin, but shouldn't the hit boxes be in the wings they run through and only a small one in the fuselage? Would make more sense to me, but then, I don't know how CFS3 handles that part. Just a thought. You've got a lot more cable or torque tube or push rod in the wings plus pulleys, bellcranks, the ailerons themselves, etc.

[+Polovski 441]

The hit boxes are very thin as explained before, and also mainly in wings (for aileron cables).

[Olham 164]

With my "effects" on 4, I have black smoke, thinner smoke, phosgen vapour over hit areas,

splintering wood, fires, explosions, whole engines zooming out, parts coming off - so all that

is missing (but that's allright that way!) is a vapour of blood from hit pilots.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Looks like my beta request went over like a lead balloon! That’s okay, really, and is simply a testament to the excellent work the OBD boys have already put into the DM. Clearly, the vast majority of people are very, if not completely, satisfied with the current DM and see little need to deal with the hassle of an alternative. Don’t get me wrong, I am also a great admirer of the HiTR DM and I have had tons of fun flying with it against many AI opponents. After all, adjusting the threshold values was originally the idea of Fortiesboy and myself, so I feel that part of our work is already incorporated into the “official” DM. Still, there is that little nagging voice that tells me, “Surely, a little tweak or two can’t do any harm!” Although I always tell the voice, “Don’t call me Shirley,” I can’t seem to resist a few tweaks here and there. Eventually, it turns into a huge project that starts to eat up all of my free time.

 

So, if anyone wants to help me out by being a beta tester…please?

 

P.S. Mr. Lucky:

My main damage complaint has always been the disabling of my ailerons with the first hit.

This used to bug me, too. However, I think I have solved the problem. The key is to change the probability of a hit to the aileron cables from 100 to 90 in the threshold section of the .xdp file for each plane. I still get hit in the cables, but not usually with the first burst from the AI.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Von Paulus 8]

I'd glad be a beta tester if I had time. I haven't played much OFF in this last weeks.

I really appreciate everybody efforts, and yours surely, to turn this already great sim into a better one

At the moment, my work is keeping me busy so I can't be one of your beta testers.

[Vasco 3]

For me it's the inequity of the effects of damage I find frustrating.

 

I have a 25% hit rate for rounds fired and close to a distance where I can beat the bastard to death with the butt of my service revolver before I open up, but despite the blue hit messages scrolling off the screen my opponent's aircraft still maneouvres like it's in pristine condition; whereas I take 3 hits from his wingman and lose the ability to roll or have my engine shot out.

 

All I want (apart from being able to see the damage that is causing my aircraft to fly like a Freisian with the vet's arm up her arse) is to see the same degredation in performance on both sides.

 

Vasco

 

Only Multiplayer Aces Get Confirmed Kills

[carrick58 23]

You have to take into account which bullet-spread option players are using too. In DiD we have the biggest spread, so we don't see wings being sawn off that often. For us I'd say the stock DM is just about right.

 

 

I agree with Sggi. However, I cant help but wanting more Hollywood type flames and smoke.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Here’s a bit of a progress report on my alternate DM mod for HITR. I have been doing lots of fiddling and testing on various aircraft in QC and feel that I am just about ready to release a “beta” version of the mod. Due to the sheer number of aircraft now available in OFF, I have not been able to thoroughly test EVERY aircraft, so I hope that anyone who decides to give my mod a try will let me know about any weirdness or anomalies they find. Although most of my changes to the HITR DM are fairly small, some changes may have unanticipated consequences for certain aircraft. In particular, I am most in need of feedback about the performance of the early war airplanes and any of the new HITR aircraft with the new DM.

The following is a list of most of the changes I have made to the aircraft damage model in OFF and which I am still currently testing:

 

DM changes shared by all aircraft:

1. Probability of striking an aileron cable reduced from 100% to 90%. In stock HITR, the first thing the AI almost always seems to hit on the player’s aircraft is one of the aileron cables—a very thin and hard to hit object. This change seems to reduce, but not eliminate, the tendency for this to happen—especially on the AI’s first pass.

 

2. Oil and coolant reservoirs hit points slightly reduced; making it slightly easier to eventually cripple aircraft by hitting these vital areas (also produces more smoke trails in combat).

 

3. Pilot and observer hit points reduced by approximately 15%, resulting in a somewhat greater likelihood of disabling/killing the pilot. Together, 2 and 3 aim to increase the number of kills from shots to “meat or metal,” as UncleAl likes to say.

 

4. Engine hit points increased slightly and threshold values altered to make engines less vulnerable to minor damage but slightly more susceptible to fire damage.

 

5. Wing hit point strength weakened slightly overall and .xdp threshold values adjusted to allow for more visible damage effects on more airplanes.

 

6. Wing roots made stronger with wing tips slightly weaker, resulting in fewer wings getting blown off an airplane, but with wingtips crumpled or damaged more often. Planes with wing damage should now be harder to control, but less likely to experience total wing loss from enemy gun fire. This should reduce the proportion of kills due to total wing loss from something like 40-50% down to approximately 15-20% (Percentages based on my experience using normal gun settings. Your percentage will vary based upon your own realism options as well as your flying and shooting skills). The lower percentage, I believe, more accurately reflects the historically rare event (in WWI) of a given airplane’s wing coming completely off due solely to enemy fire.

 

Miscellaneous DM changes:

 

1. Hit points on the lower wings of sesquiplane airplanes such as the Albatross DIII, DVa, and Nieuport series reduced to reflect smaller surface area of these wings and to make these airplanes more susceptible to damage from high speed dives and high-g maneuvers.

 

2. Hit points for upper wing on the Nieuport 28 reduced slightly to reflect potential weakness of wing from prolonged high speed dives. Enter a prolonged full speed dive only at your own risk!

3. Hit points for upper wing on the Fokker Dr I reduced very slightly to reflect possible weakness of upper wing strut on some Dr I’s due to errors in manufacturing.

Please feel free to comment or make any suggestions about these proposed changes. I hope to have a beta DM for QC flight only ready for release within the next couple of days. A full DM for campaign use should follow soon after.

[Von Paulus 8]

I'll give it a look when it's out.

Thanks Herr.

[Dej 17]

You'll find a willing Guinea Pig in me HPW. Looking forward to trying it. I haven't enough time to play campagins atm but I could try a different couple of aircraft each couple of nights a week in QC.

 

The thing I'd most appreciate is eliminating the discrepancy between the damage I do and the damage the AI does, like for like. I can get behind an enemy and pepper him good enough to generate the 'paper chase' effect and he'll fly serenely on. OTOH, his mate'll get behind me, there'll be a couple of 'per-chow per-chow' sounds and I'm flopping about the sky like it's the friggin' Glorious 12th.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Dej

[carrick58 23]

I like the DM. I think it works well with different settings for example , the settings in DID. However, I do like long trailing yellow flames and black smoke smearing the Blue Skies of OFF .Just like in the WWI films that I grew up watching.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

carrick58--I like the stock HITR DM, too. My only real gripe is the wings blowing off so easily. These are not 20 or 30 mm cannon rounds being fired at these aircraft.

 

OTOH, many people (myself included, if I am in the mood) get a certain satisfaction from blowing the wings off of an adversary's crate. Ultimately, I don't intend to totally eliminate the chance of blowing off an opponent's wing. I only want to reduce it to a more realistic (IMHO) level.

 

Dej--I'd like to eliminate this discrepancy as well. Unfortunately, even the rookie AI's are real sharpshooters and seem to know exactly where all the critical components are on your aircraft. I think I've found some success lowering the hit probability on the aileron cables from 100% to 90%. Instead of the aileron cable being the first component the AI will hit on your crate, it is now usually something else--usually the aileron itself, interestingly enough. Seems these diabolical AI have a plan: first cripple your aircraft's ability to maneuver, then kill you! Cheeky devils!

[Guest British_eh]

Herr Prop-Wasche thanks for your tireless vurk! Once I'm back up fully, I'd like to give it a go. I think what you have said is quite true as my Dr.1 ALWAYS seems to take hits in the ailerons on the first AI pass, and then its lke a boat.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh