Beta 20 ... And Counting

[Bard 0]

I believe I may have dated myself.

well you're in good company ;)

[Ruggbutt 45]

I used to fly it on my Grandma's computer, w/no joystick. I got pretty good at it and when I got the joystick I was dangerous.

[Snacky 0]

He wasn't attacking you Rammstein.  He voiced his opinion in the same manner as you did.  I do agree w/several of your points though, including the "Beta Testers" being the forum police over there.  But, it is UBI's site so I suppose putting the 'yes-men' in control over there was a smart business proposition. 

 

I like LOMAC very much and have been flying it (and having fun) even w/all of it's warts (much like the F4 community did till the code was leaked).  I'm having fun programming the missions, flying same, recording tracks, rendering clips and making movies too.  I guess I just found a sim that I like and I spend plenty of time w/it. 

 

IMHO ED will have the next patch in great shape for all of us to get back to flying instead of the arguing that has been going on.  If it was me I'd want to release the patch to fix all the niggling issues so that I could pave the way for LOMAC 2 (or whatever an addon or expansion might be called).  It makes good business sense and I think that Carl and the rest at ED have enuf on the ball to learn from their mistakes.  I wouldn't expect them to release another product w/as many issues (even though we all know that UBI probably forced them to release at Christmas whether they wanted to or not).

We bust our asses trying to test every little thing we can think of so that ED can fix what needs to be fixed and this patch can be released the right way. It would be so easy to be a "yes-man" and tell ED that everything is freakin peachy and to release the patch. You think I like staying up till 3am looking at freakin training missions or spending every minute of free time (and sometimes time away from my family) to sit there and fly the same mission over and over again to make sure a SA6 site is working properly? It's easy to criticize when you sit on the outside looking in, trust me I know I used to be just like some of you who are clueless, but then I was given the opportunity to see the inner workings of testing and programming and it's nothing like I thought it would be. You folks have no idea how much work goes into something like this (patch process), but yet you sit there and call us names, send rude emails, messege threats,etc. I actually got a personal messege on Hyperlobby the other night before going into a session telling me that the beta testers were trying to find bugs to hold up the patch because we dont want it released to the public. The end of the messege said "stop nitpicking the bugs and release it or else we will hack into your PC."

 

I am not a Yes-Man for anybody RuggButt.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Snacky

[*BtS*$y$t£M=M= 0]

Chuck Yaeger I have that somewhere Oh what I game I was just a kid then with my first PC I used to think that was s**t hot lol. compare it to LOMAC and lol yes things have changed.

 

My next sim after that was Air Warrioe I, II, III Anyone rember them?

 

I do still play and old flight sim cos I believe apart from graphic it has evetything U guys must of heard of DID F22 ADF ?

[Beer 0]

I look forward to trying LOMAC when the next patch is out.

 

I have to agree with Snacky on Beta testing. I am not a Beta Tester for LOMAC, however I have been a Tester for another Sim.

 

People think testing is easy, it is not. For each Bug you find you have to duplicate it, once duplicated then other testers duplicate it, a narrative of what happens for each bug is required (but wait is it a known bug??? need to check to see if it is already known...), then the screenshots, then you, move on to the next bug. Uninstall, then install the new Beta...You are trying to get a good product out, but you have no control other then submitting the bug (and you are not getting paid likely), someone else prioritizes it, you read the boards and are getting flamed because others think they can do a better job and really only want one thing, not to make the game better, but to have the latest and greatest version. I have seen people added to a Beta team and download the latest and post they have the latest and they are a tester, guess how many bugs they submit...very few if any. Do they search the database, do they give detailed info so a programmer can actually fix the issue? No. Beta testing is a labor of love, and for those who have not actually done it, it is no where near as easy and as fun as it may sound. Hats off to the testers, keep up the good work. Its ready when its its ready.

 

Cheers

Beer

[+Fates 63]

What Beer Said!

 

<C>

Fates

[Bard 0]

Not to take anything away from the beta testers, but the moderation over at the UBI LOMAC forum stinks to high heaven - whether it's the act of one or many of the moderators the whole lot has been given the reputation.

 

I see the post above as illustration of that.

 

The complexity for beta testing is very reliant on how good the shape the software is in in the first place - and we can see from 1.0 and 1.01 that it wasn't good. Trolling for bugs is a very time consuming way of doing it and i would hate to be in the LOMAC testers shoes - especially trying to test without being able to yell over a partition at devs for immediate feedback.

 

Don't judge the beta testing effort from the forum moderation (if you can call it moderation - it definitely isn't moderate), the two are seperate, even if some people belong to both groups.

[Ramstein 0]

To Snacky:Well if beta testing is not your cup of tea then why did you volunteer for it especially if it's taking away family time??

And as far as the "looking from the outside" comment I'll have to say that,Yes we are consumers that expect a decent functioning product and that's the end of that.

We don't need explanations of how the product is being manufactured.

I don't need to hear about how my TV set was produced on some assembly line and about some assembly line workers whining because he doesn't like the job.

All I want is my moneys worth of a functioning TV set.And if it doesn't work or satisfy me,then it goes back.Unfortunately software doesn't have these laws in place ... yet!But rest assured it's coming.And very soon at that.

It's been talked about a lot and laws governing software developers will soon be in place to protect the consumer.

Likely we'll see increased pricing due to this,but hey,I'd rather have a functioning product then some hastily thrown together crap that only aggrevates.

[GhostDog 0]

I agree with you Ramstein so far as i would much prefer a a decently working game than a broken one. (i am able to play Lomac without any major hangups though)

 

Other than that i think that both a general and specific discussion about how games are produced, tested and so forth are rather interesting.

I understand however how posts on the hardships of the tester could be seen as rather provocative to someone frustrated with a game that wont work as expected.

 

Nevertheless i appreciate that the testers, who out of love of the game and genre, voluntarily donate their time to making these programs better for all, get a bit touchy at times in what must be considered a rather heated debate - especially in the UBI jungle.

 

keep it light guys

[Bard 0]

in the EU this is already coming to pass.

 

Here in canada we have industry sponsored groups like CAAST who enforce the rights of software publishers and developers, yet there's no body sufficiently versed in software protecting the rights of consumers.

[Ruggbutt 45]

I am not a Yes-Man for anybody RuggButt.

I'm sorry you feel that I was aiming that at you. In the interest of not starting a flame war I didn't mention the couple of names over there w/the overzealous moderator attitudes. All you have to do is go over there and look at the moderation. Some are better than others. Dayglow for instance moderates fairly w/out being a flaming asshole. On the other side of the coin a couple have let the beta testing go to their heads and have become self-important'. Having had plenty of contact w/these people before their testing began I speak from experience. While I won't give out any names you really have to wonder about a mod whose title is "Destroyer of Threads". BTW, I tried the PM route to try to talk that mod down out of the tower, it did no good.

[MadJeff 3]

Guys, we are starting to stray across the line a little bit here. While I don't necessarily agree with the way things are moderated at other sites, it is their site and they can moderate as they see fit. If you don't like it, then you can stop frequenting their forums. But I don't want to start seeing threads questioning/attacking specific moderators at other forums. Especially since some of those same users frequent our forums as well. If you have issues with those people, then by all means contact them directly. Just don't take potshots from here. ;)

[MadJeff 3]

To Snacky:Well if beta testing is not your cup of tea then why did you volunteer for it especially if it's taking away family time??

And as far as the "looking from the outside" comment I'll have to say that,Yes we are consumers that expect a decent functioning product and that's the end of that.

We don't need explanations of how the product is being manufactured.

I don't need to hear about how my TV set was produced on some assembly line and about some assembly line workers whining because he doesn't like the job.

All I want is my moneys worth of a functioning TV set.And if it doesn't work or satisfy me,then it goes back.Unfortunately software doesn't have these laws in place ... yet!But rest assured it's coming.And very soon at that.

It's been talked about a lot and laws governing software developers will soon be in place to protect the consumer.

Likely we'll see increased pricing due to this,but hey,I'd rather have a functioning product then some hastily thrown together crap that only aggrevates.

Ram, you have to admit your post is more than a little condecending. Snacky brings up excellent points, and he is right. I'm not sure if you have ever beta-tested software before, but the average user really has no clue the amount of work and dedication these guys have to put in. Tedious, mind-numbing work sometimes. And they are not getting paid for it. However, their end-result will make a much better sim for you and I. Acting in an ungrateful manner towards the people trying to fix the sim doesn't strike me as the most productive way to get your point across.

 

You are right, that we as consumers deserve as close to perfect a release as possible. But attacking the beta-testers is kind of like attacking the carpenter to come and fix a new house you just had built from a contractor. The independant carpenter is not the person to yell at, it's the contractor that originally built your house. These beta-testers are not the people who released the sim with bugs, but they are trying to fix the bugs. Show a little appreciation to the hard work and dedication.

 

As for the "hastily thrown-together crap", I just don't get that attitude. You'll probably be pissed to hear that I've really had almost no problems with running this sim on my modest AMD 2400+/512Mb/9600Pro rig, and that's since the early betas I ran while doing my preview article. Not to say there are no issues, of course there are. But I've enjoyed the sim quite a bit since it was released. The edges need to be smoothed out a bit, but I really scratch my head at some of the stuff I hear from people sometimes that have these uber-rigs that can't seem to get it flyable. I can't help but wonder what else they have on their system that might be causing conflicts. Anyhoo, just my humble opinion on the issue, take it for what it's worth. :D

[Snacky 0]

I am not a Yes-Man for anybody RuggButt.

I'm sorry you feel that I was aiming that at you. In the interest of not starting a flame war I didn't mention the couple of names over there w/the overzealous moderator attitudes. All you have to do is go over there and look at the moderation. Some are better than others. Dayglow for instance moderates fairly w/out being a flaming asshole. On the other side of the coin a couple have let the beta testing go to their heads and have become self-important'. Having had plenty of contact w/these people before their testing began I speak from experience. While I won't give out any names you really have to wonder about a mod whose title is "Destroyer of Threads". BTW, I tried the PM route to try to talk that mod down out of the tower, it did no good.

Your problem with Moses is your problem. If you expect to be able to go into a private chat and force him to see something your way then your wrong. When you make a general statement like you did then I will be offended because I am a beta tester as well as a Mod over there. I have been a long time member here at Jeff's site and out of respect for him I will not argue with you about it any further, but I am not going to visit some of my favorite sites and see my name and the names of my friends drug through the mud.

The moderators are told to police those forums a certain way and if you don't like it then don't go there. It's pretty simple.

 

btw- Your experience? Who are you to judge me or anyone else for the decisions we make? You don't know me, you don't know anything about me. You also don't know anything about the rest of the guys I work with daily so who are you to say "It is my experience" when talking about us?

You don't!

 

Sorry Jeff, just really hot right now.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Snacky

[+Fates 63]

___________________________________________________________________

[Ruggbutt 45]

You also don't know anything about the rest of the guys I work with daily so who are you to say "It is my experience" when talking about us?

You are making incorrect assumptions. You know nothing of the interaction between myself and some of the guys you beta test with. I merely stated that I had previous experience and interaction w/some of those guys, Moses included. Question me if you want but the truth is the truth regardless. I'm sorry you feel that my opinion doesn't matter, but life doesn't work that way. Relax a little, a difference of opinion on open forums shouldn't ruin your mood or your day.:)

 

Back OT: I appreciate the hard work you guys are doing, I beta tested FarCry. I too spent way too many hours online testing maps, gameplay, weapons, the whole nine yards. I spent way too much time submitting incident, bug and gameplay reports to Crytek. But I did so of my own volition. I know what beta testers go thru and I know what it's like to be attacked in the forums for posting niggling issues and opinions on what needs to be fixed.

 

I put myself in that position and did so willingly. Too many times I've seen beta testers get their panties in a bunch over a job they volunteered for. If you don't wanna risk being burned to death don't become a firefighter. If you don't wanna die falling from heights, don't become a window washer on a high rise. We all appreciate what the testers are doing, I posted on UBI that exact thought this morning. The beta testers are doing a thankless job for sure, but lets not forget that they chose to do so.

 

In closing I will say that there are some capable people testing the beta patches (Moses included) and from personal experience I know how hard that job can be. I think that when everything is hashed out in the end that ED will release a finished "fix" for LOMAC that will make everyone happy and proud to fly the best FS out there.

[Snacky 0]

Just because I work on the beta team does not mean I am required to swallow abuse from folks on these forums. It doesn't work that way. There is a difference between having an opinion and insulting someone or questioning thier integrity.

[Ruggbutt 45]

And neither do I for expressing my opinion (which you obviously do not agree with).

 

Can we move on please?

[Guest MrMudd]

I've been working on this sim since Sept of last year. Took a mild break in The winter months, Now I have been working 10 Hours a day if not more on the Beta Testing of the 1.02 patch.

 

Instant gratification for an early release of this patch will not happen.

 

Stormin spends a great deal with us testing these patches and is usually the Rooster of the Bunch, Calling people on the phone, ICQ, Dropping into the dedicated 195th Ventrilo channel what have you on each patch upload for testing. This goes to include the many of the other multiplay testors.. Many nights i dont hit the bed until 3-4am working on these test events.

 

We have another Dynamic in the mix. Eagle Dynamics has lost a great deal of employees that worked on the Flanker and lock on product. Like all employers, retention of skilled workforce or those knowledgable with a product is tough. I'm sure you guys in your Career diciplines see the same turnover rates.

 

The good news is this. Eagle has picked up some real good talent. to give ya an indea on the scaled differnce between 1.01 fixes and 1.02 fixes in Game enhancements is like comparing a single story dwelling to a Skyscraper.

 

They have been in the past two weeks releaseing us a beta every day. This requires us to also test every training mission, Co-op Mission, Campaign, for each of the aircraft. We then build series of missions and fly them all together just to try and attempt to cover all o fthe unknowns. Thats a full day of testing and bug reporting. From this Stormin is on the phone with eagle, and via emails reporting all the issues, as well as what we reportt in our testing forums. This will go on for a few more hours...

 

The 1.02 is quite advanced over the retail and the 1.01.

 

The hardest part about the testing is not the initiative, reporting, and time consumption. it is coming to forums and hearing from the consumers and community makeing disrespectful comments and accusations of Beta testers being prima donnas or snobs, when that has never been the case. You should be fortunate that these testers and consultants such as myself are freely giving of information.

 

Non of us are paid. We sacrifice our personal lives, Time management and it takes a great deal of time away from our personal enjoyment of many other gameing products we enjoyed.

 

It is dissapointing to see these UBISOFt lomac forum tirades to travel from site to site, because a chosen few choose to play childish games over there and bring them here., or on other sites.

 

Biohazcentral is by far one of my most favorite communities, because most of the core participants here, that have been here since the very beginning have been a humble and non combative crowd. This is the crowd I appreciate the most, and look forward to flying with online. once we are finished with the 1.02

 

If you dont like the game, Then dont play it and flame those that are chooseing to invest their time, talents and best efforts. I have a desk full of games i never enjoyed, sometimes I reinstall and remember why i was displeased.

 

But I am a bigger man than to trvel from forum to forum flaming people, flaming developers, and the core fans that enjoy the product.

 

Turn the page.....

Edited June 9, 2004 by MrMudd

[SlickWili 0]

We have another Dynamic in the mix.  Eagle Dynamics has lost a great deal of employees that worked on the Flanker and lock on product. Like all employers, retention of skilled workforce or those knowledgable with a product is tough. I'm sure you guys in your Career diciplines see the same turnover rates.

Thanks, Mr. Mudd, for this. It is appreciated. The more insight we have into a situation, the more equipped we are to understand the why of a situation.

 

You are also correct that the information flows quite freely from your side of the fence to the end user. It is not this way everywhere or all the time, and should not be taken for granted.

 

When I read about the other "dynamic" you referred to in your post (quoted above) my stomach turned over. :( I've seen it happen in my industry... when intel like that is lost, it is hard to regain or regenerate. It forces others to step up to the plate and take a swing. Sometimes the result is suprisingly good and other times, it just takes more work, time and effort to get a similar result. Generalizations, I know, but I'm sure some of it applies.

[Beer 0]

I worked for a Captain that had a saying:

"You are either a part of the problem or part of the solution"

 

It is so true...

 

The best solution for software issues would be what?

 

Productive threads indicating consumer discovered Bugs/Glitches; which the developer could read and possibly assign fixes or testers to duplicate.

 

Now fill these type threads with flaming, and add unsoliticted personal insights as to the poor quality or I/we are disgruntaled consumers and deserve better... why would anyone want to sort through that?

 

The moderator has a job, if certain boards are heavy moderated, I think the above saying comes into play:

 

"are the board users part of the problem or part of the solution?"

 

To be part of the solution the board users should write productive threads indicating consumer discovered Bugs/Glitches; which the developer could read and possibly assign fixes or testers to duplicate.

 

I bet that would speed things up ;)

 

IMHO, those who are most vocal for getting the patch out quickly should be spending their time being part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.

 

Cheers

Beer

[finiteless 0]

...the scaled difference between 1.01 fixes and 1.02 fixes in Game enhancements is like comparing a single story dwelling to a Skyscraper. ...

 

 

...The 1.02 is quite advanced over the retail and the 1.01. ...

Every cloud has a silver lining.

 

Cheers Mr Mudd.

[Ramstein 0]

We,the customer do not need explanations of how & why.Nor do we need to be any developers or publishers lab tech guys.

We,the consumer laid down hard earned money for a product.

We,the consumer have the right to expect a decently functioning product.

LOMAC does not meet those standards.

Theres no room for debate there.All this jive about "helping & solutions" are not the burdon of the customer,rather the developer/publisher.

So spare us customers the whining about how hard ED & UBI are working for us and turn around and throw us for a guilt trip regarding how we should be contributing to a product we have already paid for.

ED & UBI are in debt to the customer in the case of LOMAC.That's all there is to it.They know it.They also know that throwing out smokescreens i.e. a tad of hope here and there and "puppets" who attempt to distort and distract from the facts is largely in their favor.Hence their forum moderation tactics over on UBI.

Keep the truth hidden.

Unfortunately(for them) the hope is fading as each days goes by and a patch is still not produced.Furthermore all the disclaiming that has already appeared regarding the as-of-yet-non-existant patch.

I see a patch appearing sometime that will have as many bugs as the current state of the product.I may be wrong,but my gut feeling tells me so.

Time will tell.Just remember me and what my predictions were when it does appear.I'd hate to have to resort to such cliche's as "I told you so" :)

[GhostDog 0]

RAmstein.. are you even reading what ppl here post?

 

We,the customer do not need explanations of how & why.Nor do we need to be any developers or publishers lab tech guys.

Most ppl here appreciate the input from the developers and testers. Don try to speak for all customers.

 

Theres no room for debate there.All this jive about "helping & solutions" are not the burdon of the customer,rather the developer/publisher.

You dont'call the shots here about whether there is or isnt room for debate. WE the moderators, and ultimately MJ does.

As i and many others see it the devs and testers are trying to do their part therefore the "be part of the problem or part of the solution" applies very well here.

 

So spare us customers the whining about how hard ED & UBI are working for us and turn around and throw us for a guilt trip regarding how we should be contributing to a product we have already paid for.

Try reading the posts from the testers and then your own... who is whining?

 

....They also know that throwing out smokescreens i.e. a tad of hope here and there and "puppets" who attempt to distort and distract from the facts is largely in their favor.Hence their forum moderation tactics over on UBI.

Keep the truth hidden.

I fail to see any evidence of a conspiracy so unless you you can back it up i suggest you dont go any further down this road. This is slander

 

 

... as for the part about you not wanting to resort to clichés i can only ask you to read your own posts once again.

[+Fates 63]

Ramstein.....your opinions are your opinions. How many times do you have to come here and declare them..Once is enough...twice is threatening...three times is starting an argument.

 

These threads will not be open for arguments just for you. Go post your dissapointments with Ubi and ED. Your not part of the solution.

 

As for everyone else, I closed the thread for obvious reasons. Everyones welcome to pick the topic back up in the Beta 22 thread, but remember, Biohaz will not tolerate threads that continue to be argumentative. If you have opinions, your welcome to state them, but when you attempt to stamp your opinions on everyone else, then you are no longer contributing to the constructive support of the topic at hand.

 

Have a nice day

 

Fates