A Question For The Germans...

[Lt. James Cater 62]

I've been wondering about this for some years now.

 

 

With all that went on with the Stasi and learning about all the files about who was doing this and that and who were informers and spying on this person and that. How is it that payback was avoided on a large scale?

 

Example... One of my Uncles years ago in Cuba, got drunk at a party and started talking all kinds of things about Castro and Communists in general. Sure enough, the police were at his door the next day and off to prison he went for "Counter-Revolutionary Activities". Well, some time later he learned who ratted him out. Needless to say, the favor MUST be repayed. I've heard a whole lot of stories like that throughout the years and there are countless guys i know who are just waiting for the chance to get back at those who put them away and/or otherwise screwed them in the old country. Some have hit lists that include multiple targets, one i worked with recently told me he had 10 names on his list.

 

What i want to know is...Just how in the hell did you people avoid this kind of vengeance?

 

Personally, i'm inclined to help out my Uncle in any way i can to let the informer know that he made a seriously terminal error even to the point of carrying out the actual act myself.

 

Anyways, i'm still really fascinated by the fact that with all the information in the Stasi files, people in Germany didn't want to track down who did them wrong.

[+JonathanRL 974]

I have only lived in the Western part of Germany for a few years, but mostly, Statsis biggest tool was fools and children, as well as surveillance gear. "Ratting out" was not really the same big deal since there was not that many who actually did the ratting - most of thoose who did was already Statsi members who had a big influence in everyday life. While former Statsi Informers where arrested, charges was dropped (Beeing a member is not illigal). A country of 17 million had 100 000 Statsi mixed into them. Compared to Soviets 480 000 KBG Agents or Gestapos 40 000 (who watched over 80 Million), this is a big ammount of people.

 

Regarding the files, some are still classified, others was taken away with Western Intelligence agencies during the first hours of the looting of their headquarters. Any major spineless rat ought to have figured this was a good time to leave the country by then.

 

It is worth noting that many wanted the files to be classified to avoid just the kind of actions you describe above. However, in 1992 the files was declassified and anybody can request to have their Statsi act sent to them. However, it is impossible to say if theese files contain any names of agents who may have reported above-mentioned activites.

[+Gepard 11,296]

Point 1. The so called "Stasi Akten" files. The names in this files are "blacked" what means you cant read the names of the IM (call them spies, covered agents etc.pp what you want, here in Germany we call the IM "informal members")

So it is nearly impossible to say exactly who was the one who told the Stasi.

Point 2. From my own experience. In my file i found a lot of things which must come from IM's. I have no problem with that if the IM's told the truth. I'm a man who stand to his words and actions.

If the IM's told rubbish then it is a different matter. And in one case i would like to cut a throat, if i would only find out who was that p....g!

But it seems to be that the Stasi was smart enough to find out wheter a information of an IM was true or rubbish. In my case one IM told the Stasi that i was an "enemy of the state". But this info was identified by the Stasi as an attempt of a personal revenge of this person to me. So i had no repressions from the Stasi side.

In contrary they checked me trough and i got the highest ranking of reliability so that i was allowed to walk the borderline "enemyward", what meant between borderfence and borderline. (What a doubtfull honour!)

 

The Stasi is declared as a overwhelming repression organization. But the normal citizen never saw and heared anything from them. Personaly i never saw them. I knew that they were existend, that they were listening, watching, that you had to be carefull what to say. Not really different from todays life.

Only 5 % of GDR citizens had closer "contact" with the Stasi and got trouble with it. But this 5 % had a really hard life.

 

Point 3: Johnathan wrote that you can request to look into your Stasi file. This is true. It is also true that journalists, scientists etc can take a look into this files, but only in the files of the east germans. Files of west german people are closed.

It is also true, that the agency BStU, who is the bureau of clearing the Stasi files, has some strange behaviour. A free research into the files if not allowed. If a scientist or journalist want to search for a subject, he gets only parts of the material, never the whole stuff. Also leting out is a kind of lying!

In some cases it had become obviously that the BStU and other "victim organisations" are forging material. In the Stasi museum at Hohenschönhausen for instance you can see a torture cell. The stupid thing is that this cell was built in after 1990. In GDR times was at this place the kitchen.

This is a very stupid way of acting, because it made it easy for the "old commies" to say "This is not ours", "This is forged!"

BStU is also know for selective annihilation of files.

 

As you see the german way is far away to be perfect. The files are still today a methode to duck people and devide the germans into parts.

It would be better to taken this files away from BStU or "victim organisation" and give them into the hand of reliable archivars or scientists. Or to burn them.

[Derk 265]

Very interesting answer Michael. Have been in the DDR in the '70 s and our experience was that it was possible to have quite open conversations with people , including SED members.

I am convinced that we must have been in Stasi archives, as on our first trip (by train) one of our friends was a Navy pilot and his father was retired chief of naval Intelligence in the Netherlands. Later we found out that we had been screened by our own Dutch intelligence service before the trip. Furthermore we were hunting for steam locomotives so we visited a lot of stations ("strategic targets") and made the train trip on the line Probstzella - Meiningen (i.e. border country). On our second trip (by car) we spent a very strange Christmas night in Meiningen with a Russian, an SED party member and two other Germans, where everyone spoke out quite openly..... (and had a lot of fun) and for the rest we spent more time along borders (with Chechoslovakia and Poland)

As in those days you had to report in advance where you were staying it must have been quite easy to put us in rooms with listening devices...

After die Wende we made inquiries and they told us we were not in the archives. Still don't believe it !!!

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited May 19, 2010 by Derk

[+Gepard 11,296]

The situations you decribe are common to me. You was free in speech till you got to a certain border. To test out this border was a tricky thing. It depended on the people which were part of a discussion or a meeting. And astonishingly it was very often possible to discuss hard and open with "believing communists", because they wanted to convice you (very similar to believing christs but only in an other direction).

Problematic it became if you had to face "110 % ers". This guys were careerists and thatswhy very dangerous. One wrong word and ... imagine yourself. (After the Change this guys were the first who throw away their party books and became members of the democratic parties.)

But the people got a fine sense to find out wheter type of person sat on the other side of the table.

[Derk 265]

Thanks Michael, will tell my friends from back then. Obviously we did not meet real 110% ers, except on the way out at Marienborn when a very young Grenzschutz soldier wanted to turn our car inside out (they really demolished the interior in such cases, removing every panel, all the seats etc. etc.) when he saw our filmcameras and soundrecorders. His superior though ordered us to turn on the soundrecorder instead and immediatley started beaming when he heard our recordings of hard working steam loco's at the Harzquerbahn.

We had to tell everything and he said goodbye with a big smile and a firm handshake, leaving the soldier frustrated as hell...... Both are probably nice and quite citizens now.

It was va banque at the borders...

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited May 18, 2010 by Derk

[shotdown 8]

 

But the people got a fine sense to find out wheter type of person sat on the other side of the table.

 

We definitely need that kind of people here in Spain.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Very fascinating to find out what it's like for you people in Germany.

 

One thing about Cubans in the US is what happens when some people get found out.

 

The Uncle i mentioned above was walking down the avenue one day a few years ago and locked eyes with a former guard in the prison he did time in. If my Uncle was healthier he would have strangled the guy right on the spot, as even in his older years he is a remarkably strong fellow.

 

As things went, he started yelling and the guard ran for it. My Uncle proceeded to pass the name and description around and they found out where the guy lived but he had quickly packed and took off. Which was good for him because he was going to be deader than hell.

 

The one i told about that had the 10 name list? He actually ran into the son of the very policeman who arrested him years ago and sent him to be tortured during interrogation. The son recognized him and tried to play it off as that was years ago and he was a little kid then. The guy reminded the son that his father was a hardcore communist in Cuba and that the kid grew up also being commited to the cause. As far as Cubans are concerned, there is no such thing as an ex-communist.

 

Sure enough, the kid had to leave town quick.

 

There's been a lot of hits throughout the years because of situations like those. I always wondered how the Germans managed to avoid that.

[Von Paulus 8]

Very fascinating.

Every folk deals at his own way. It's a question of cultural background also.

Generally, latins are more impulsive. But...

As some may know, there was a dictatorship in Portugal which last 48 years. Ended in 1974 with a coup d'etat, a "revolution", done by a military faction.

During the period of the dictatorship, the state political police (called PIDE), arrested and tortured people who were against the regime. Like it was expected, there was a kind of persecution for those who were PIDE's members. But nothing really serious. It was a bloodless revolution. I still wondered how was it possible.

How was it in Spain after Franco's death? I don't remember to have read anything related to the prosecution of ex-members of the secret police force.

Can any Spanish forum member enlighten me about that?

Edited May 19, 2010 by Von Paulus

[shotdown 8]

Nothing happened in Spain Von Paulus. But I'm afraid this might change now thanks to some idiot politicians who are trying to bring us back to the last days of the II republic, the period that led us to our civil war.

[+Gepard 11,296]

Perhaps one reason that it went relativly well here in Germany is that the germans are not as hottempered (hope this is the correct english term) as cubans or other southlanders.

[macelena 1,070]

The reason why i think that there are no such retaliations, beyond being temperamental or not, is because people just wants to live in peace, leave the past behind and all that, along with the trouble finding the repressors, mainly when the future you see is relatively promising, as happens in most western countries.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Perhaps one reason that it went relativly well here in Germany is that the germans are not as hottempered (hope this is the correct english term) as cubans or other southlanders.

Yes, that is the correct term.

 

I actually factored this in to an extent since Germans are known to be a rather calm people.

 

Over here? Cubans/Puerto Ricans/Dominicans/Colombians/Mexicans/Salvadorans are pretty much the Latinos i've been around the most enough to gauge threat levels to within a fine point. All are known for hair trigger tempers(Depending on the situation).

 

 

Macelena's point was very interesting from a cultural point since all listed above are descended from Spaniards during their colonial period. Yet Spain avoided vengeance also (From what i have researched) and yet all of my list consider payback as almost a matter of course.

 

Makes one wonder.

 

A question i will pose to all is how would one respond in a family situation? As in ...Say one of your close relatives was put in a bad spot by someone and you find out who did it?

 

So many factors have to be accounted for but i figure it should add to the original premise of this thread.

[shotdown 8]

Yet Spain avoided vengeance also (From what i have researched) and yet all of my list consider payback as almost a matter of course.

 

Makes one wonder.

 

 

Revenge against who? That's the trick, you know; the people who had the power in the last days of Franco's rule kept it under Franco's successor (our current king Juan Carlos). They were the ones who made the change to our democracy (I say democracy because Imust call it by some name but...) and even among supporters of the presumed anti-Franco parties (specially the socialist party) there are a lot of people who were actually in very high positions with Franco or where enjoying the advantages of having some relative in those positions. And now that a few decades have gone by some of those people are trying to show themselves as freedom fighters who oppossed Franco (even a former misnister in the times of Franco said some months ago that he had been anti Franco back then)

[+Gepard 11,296]

A question i will pose to all is how would one respond in a family situation? As in ...Say one of your close relatives was put in a bad spot by someone and you find out who did it?

 

Revenge, the honour of family, etc Sounds like a sort of vendetta.

This will become a never ending story of revenge and counter revenge. For instance: A man was arested by a policeman. He takes his revenge and engage the policeman. The son of the policeman takes his revenge to the man, The son of the man takes his revenge to the son of the policemen. etc.

If you ask me its a very stupid behaviour.

[JediMaster 451]

Ah, you've just defined Muslim-Israeli relations for the past few thousand years!

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Revenge, the honour of family, etc Sounds like a sort of vendetta.

This will become a never ending story of revenge and counter revenge. For instance: A man was arested by a policeman. He takes his revenge and engage the policeman. The son of the policeman takes his revenge to the man, The son of the man takes his revenge to the son of the policemen. etc.

If you ask me its a very stupid behaviour.

Actually, it doesn't go that far. There are certain things which can leave one without any allowable reason to retaliate. "Son of a cop" would have zero right seeing as his father was doing dirty work. As a matter of fact, if he opens his mouth he just might get knocked off too. Informers are pariah as well, there is no way that you can justify ANY action if one of your family is a known rat. As a matter of fact, the best course in that case to to cut them loose and what happens, happens.

 

Street level politics is just as intense as what goes on in the UN.