1948 War for Independence/1956 Suez Crisis

[Tomb 0]

You have actually flown a Seahawk for real?

 

i wish

 

however professionaly, flight control is a speciality of mine as is flight simulation

 

after a while you can get a good idea what configuration results in what kind of stall/spin

 

i could bore you with many..many pages on this and i will if you want ;)

 

anyway just to check i pulled the pilots notes for the sea hawk F2/F3/F5/FGA4 and 6

 

stalling and spinning is covered in part 3 pages 65-66

 

suffice to say aileron control is maintained post stall, thier is pleny of warning and wing drop is gentle with recovery occuring immedialty the standard recovery action is take.

 

that aint what happens with this sea hawk model

 

will that do you ?

 

incidently all the performance diagrams are in thier...i think the sea hawk may be underperforming a bit...not done a detailed check..yet..do you want me to ?

 

regards

[+Dave 2,320]

We are looking for another FM guy. We are in need of them because we have maybe 4 who can do it. Have you looked at the data.ini's at all? You think you can do anyhing with them?

[Wrench 9,733]

yes yes...need for FM people.....yes yes....

 

wrench

kevin stein

[Tomb 0]

looking at the data.ini...

 

i get the general idea..but it will take me time to learn

 

at i at the moment comparing the mig15 model (benign stall) with the seahawk model (vicious stall)

 

to see if i can spot what causes it and what to change

 

it does not seem to to be obvious as washout which i would expect

 

as with any flight model it does not do to wade in with a blunt axe..as many items are interelated and changing one thing changes something else.

 

i may end up cutting up bits of code and pasting it all back together to get the desired performance from the model until such time as i can do it from scratch

[Wrench 9,733]

With what little I know ... I'd suggest looking at the 3W Mustang ... it's straight wings are similiar in shape to the Seahawk, and might be somewhat closer than the swept-wing MiG-15. I know ther's differences in placement (mid-wing vs low-wing) with the various and sundry aerodynamic statements, but it's just a thought on my part

 

Good luck! We DO need more FM people!

 

wrench

kevin stein

[Tomb 0]

yup solid advice

 

however its the stall/spin portion i am looking at at the moment

 

as far as the seahawk goes the load out between models is wrong, that looks easily correctable

 

FB3-no outboard Rocket stores stations should be present only two inner pylons per wing of which only the inner may carry a bomb (totalx2)

 

FGA4 adds outboard rocket wing stations plus the inner and outer plyons may carry bombs (totalx4)

 

FGA6 more powerfull engine fitted otherwise same as FGA4

 

not in suez but for information

 

FB5 more powerfull engine version of FB3

 

F2 no bombs, only inboard drop tanks

 

drop tank types are 88gal metal and 77gal plastic ( total +1408lbs/1200lbs)

 

the sea hawk was considerable slower with the metal tanks fitted, need to fiddle with the drag index of those tanks to replicate that

 

for example

 

clean 520kts no mach limit (nose pitches up at .85mach with full forward stick)

 

2x77gal 480kts mach .82

 

2x88gal 440kts mach .7

 

max G is 7.3G clean 5.4G loaded

 

best climb clean is 320kts, loaded 295kts, reduce by 20kts for every 10,000ft

 

max rate of roll 350kts

 

stall clean 90kts (full fuel+ no ammo)

 

stall clean 95kts (full fuel+full ammo)

 

stall as above 100kts (full fuel+full ammo + drop tanks)

 

max mach achievable .85, buffeting starts at .83

 

landing speed 105-110kts

 

nose lifts off at 80kts and aircraft flys off at unsticks at 110kts

 

moderate pitch up when flaps are raised

 

the FGA6 (more powerfull engine )

 

max climb +12%

max speed +1%

max range +1%

max endurance +3%

 

as you can see thier is a bit of work to do thier to hit those numbers and get the difference between types config right

 

first thing about flight modeling is actually having the data to work with

 

for the sea hawk, this i can provide reasonbly well...

 

hopefully thier are folks who can answer a few questions...such as what units are being used in various portions the data.ini file,

[+Dave 2,320]

Tomb the loads were based on a variety of other factors from the model standpoint. So they are staying as is due to that fact. Listen, I appreciate your work but these planes have been out for years. This mod is out and so far no show stoppers. Do you mind if we just move on? I have other mods to work on now. Thanks for your enthusiasm though.

[Tomb 0]

the model may well have been out for years..

 

but its been incorrect all those years

 

its not a worry i can make some corrections myself and put the file up for those who want it

 

it more of a place to start learning some aspects of this code with a model i have reasonable proper data for.

 

thanks for your time anyway

[Tomb 0]

its taken a little while but i have figured out the FM code enough to correct the flight model so the aircraft behavior at the stall/spin is as described in the flight manual

 

currently the sea hawk spins if you cough in the cockpit with back stick or tight turn

 

the Seahawk manual describes the stall/spin as requiring nose high and with full back stick the seahwak will slowly drop a wing

 

this i have now replicated..it will still spin...but you have to provoke it and those carrier approaches will be a heck of a lot safer

 

also the sudden loss of speed and flicking into a spin has been cured during tight turns.

 

i thinks its possible a bit too benign now so i will tweak it to what i have experianced in flight simulators for an aircraft of this size and wieght for spin entry

 

so it will be subjective at this point as to the precise onset of a spin since i dont know any seahawk pilots to ask who have spun it

 

but it will behave as per the manual for the incipient spin entry.

 

if this is of interest i will make the rest of the changes to the other seahawk models since i built a Seahawk F-1 model to teach myself the needed FM code.

 

then you can update them as req'd

[Tomb 0]

ok the seahawk now hits the spin/stall charecteristics as described in the manual, final tweaking to the FM done, you can do erect and inverted spins and it will bite you if pushed too far, stall warning stall onset around the right speed's, G limit raised from 6 to 7.3, across the deck speed stability at the requisite 110kts is bang on, so now i am going to leave well alone, i could be here a long time trying to be perfect

 

now to create the seahawk F2 to learn how to sort out the load outs which i just noticed are incorrect, the drop tank plyons should be the outer pair not the inner pair, and bomb availability should be on both pylons for the FGA variants, also to remove the rockets from the FB3 varient

 

onwards and upwards

[+eburger68 199]

Tomb:

 

Thanks for the update. Very interested to try out your new flight model.

 

Eric Howes

[Tomb 0]

Ok the new flight models for the FB3/FGA4/FGA6 are ready

 

as i am new here i need some info on how to upload the files etc

 

fight perfomance is as follows

 

for a clean aircraft

 

the nose will lift off at 80kts

 

fly off speed is around 110-120kts

 

for the climb

 

accelerate to 200kts

 

climb at 2000ft/min accelarte to 300kts

 

climb at 300kts until .7 mach

 

climb at .7 mach

 

Approach speed 110kts

 

she's very stable now with the flaps and gear down so all you need is small throttle movements to maintain the approach and take the wire

 

stall, you will get the usually rumble 10-15 kts as a warning, she start to sink, you will need full back stick to stall in approach configuration at which point she will slide off on one wing (but with a high rate of decent)

 

accellerated stall

 

usual shudder then stall, she will spin if mis-handeld at this point and will spin inverted if bunted too hard

 

recovery is standard from erect or inverted spins

 

you can now turn and burn with her now, G limits hace been corrected and the handling is nice enough to get to the edge...it will still bite if pushed really hard though

 

Mig 15 will out climb and be faster than you though...other straight wing jets...you can take em with more confidence than before that horrible suddenly lose all airspeed down to 30kts and spin has been eliminated

 

Load outs

 

Major changes here

 

all versions

 

Drop tanks on the correct (outboard) pylons now

 

FB3 bombs on the inboard pylons only NO rockets

 

FGA4/FGA6 Bombs available on both pylons and rockets available

 

But the original model has the inboard four pylons as rocket stations (incorrect)they need shifting outboard so at the moment only 6 instead of 10 rockets can be carried (i lack the knowledge and the tools to place the 4 needed rocket pylons correctly without a lot of time consuming guessing as to the corrct co-ords)

 

the sea hawks played a major role in the SUEZ crisis, you should now be able to enjoy flying them

 

other issue, the FGA4 on the carrier will slow roll until it crashes, seems to be a problem when its on a carrier deck, it's fine on land, beyond me to fix this..seems to be a FGA4 3D model issue

 

seperate issue

 

SUEZ SHOW STOPPER

 

cyprus is marked as hostile territory so the RAF wont be taking part (Canbarra/Venom,Hunter) you get shot at on the runway if you try in the CAMPAIGN

 

i was wondering where the RAF were (as a Fleet air arm pilot CAMPAIGN which works fine)

[+paulopanz 2,853]

Good news Tomb !

 

Before uploading new FMs please check the updated ones (by Baffmeister) in the new Sea Hawk serie that I'm uploading now (1,2,3 up 4 pending for approval, 5 uplaoding now and 6 to come).

 

ALL planes involved in Suez crisis of ALL Squadrons with historical numbers included.

 

Making ALL original serial numbers for F3/4/6 and compared with Acig.org OBB I noted that 800 squadron had all FGA.6 and 810 squadron almost all with very few FGA.4, if not Yet converted to FGA.6 standard ...

 

.... so I included in my incoming FGA.6 pack 800 and 810 Squadrons, but if You will think to revert to FGA.4 You could transfer the relative folders.

 

An edited and upgraded 1956 campaign is in testing, too.

 

Paul

[+Dave 2,320]

 

SUEZ SHOW STOPPER

 

cyprus is marked as hostile territory so the RAF wont be taking part (Canbarra/Venom,Hunter) you get shot at on the runway if you try in the CAMPAIGN

 

i was wondering where the RAF were (as a Fleet air arm pilot CAMPAIGN which works fine)

 

Now how the hell did that happen? It wasn't like that before. I will look at it sometime today.

 

Paul

 

What upgrade campaign?

[Tomb 0]

will take a look paulo very soon....

 

would agree, i only have s/n for 810 sqn with the FGA4 i have the 17x FGA4 aircraft s/n if you wish (i have the FB3 and FGA6 s/n's also for the other units

 

what we really need is a hero to come up with a Sea Venom FAW21 to complete the carrier set

[Tomb 0]

hmm conflict with 800sqn here i have two sets of serials one set for the FGA4 and another set for the FGA6

 

will look into it a bit more

[+paulopanz 2,853]

Well, while the FGA.6 is uploading (18 skins ... 56+mb) I was testing an upgraded campaign using an edited OOB, new SeaHawks, some other planes & skins added, with ALL planes from all sides flyable and no SQUADRONLIST.INI needed.

 

BTW I'll send it to Dave for testing/editing, when (?) ready. He his our Suez team leader.

 

I have the A-Team Sea Venom in skinning, too ... but it's a real hard job for me to draw the lines (wings done) ... so it's going on so slowly ..

 

... and I falled in love with new Mig-15bis by TW.

 

Paul

[Tomb 0]

ok tried the new version

 

hmm

 

i think my version flys much nicer...you wont even think its the same plane

 

agree with the hunter cockpit i have gone for that as well

 

with regards to weapons ..you know i had not looked at the wieghts

 

she is 3000lbs over wieght with a full load and 350lbs over wieght clean.

 

this clearly needs looking at

 

ok i will do a new change to the weapons since i have the weapon load chart and wieghts for the F2/FB3/FGA4/FGA6 i will try to make it match that

 

rocket types are 10x60lb or 20x25lb

 

max wieght limit weapon load is 10x60lb rckts + 2xFT which gives 16,200lbs according to the manual

 

inner two wing pylons should be jettisionable and the outer pair also for the FGA4/FGA6

 

i think the data.ini is in KG's but the in game weapon load screen is in pounds so i will know i am in the right area by checking it

 

i think you have just given me a bit more work to do

 

LoL

[+paulopanz 2,853]

Hugh, my own great FM Guru, made a dedicated readme for his data.ini tweakings.

 

There is a weapon pylon 4 issue with this model, that Hugh and Alex talked about some days ago.

 

But I'm only a painter.

 

All I know is that new SH serie taxies, take off, flies and land much, much better than original one.

 

This plane had the same RR Nene engine of MiG-15bis but never had his performances ...

 

My personal data editing was about the front geardoor light deleted in F.1/5 models (but I can't remove the 3D shape ...) and fixed in F.6 (retractable now).

 

Any upgrade will be - as usual - welcomed.

 

Good - hard - work.

 

Paul

[+Dave 2,320]

The loadouts for the rockets aren't correct because the loadouts are mirrored. It's a problem with the model. Also 800 sq flew two types of Seakhawks at the same time during the Suez according to my sources. So thus why you have 2 sets of decals.

[+paulopanz 2,853]

The loadouts for the rockets aren't correct because the loadouts are mirrored. It's a problem with the model. Also 800 sq flew two types of Seakhawks at the same time during the Suez according to my sources. So thus why you have 2 sets of decals.

 

My references:

 

Acig.org serial numbers for 800 Sq Fga.4: XE391, 400, 411, 435, 436, 437, 438, 454, 455

 

810 Sq Fga.4: XE405, 333, 335, 403, WV796

 

 

 

Warpaint serial numbers for Fga6: XE339-344 362-411 435-463 489-490

 

Fga4: XE327-338 WV794- 807 etc.(All upgraded to Mk 6 standard)

 

So, if I'm not wrong, 800 Sq had only Mk. 6 and 810 had 2 Mk.6 and 3 Mk.4 (if not yet upgraded in 1956 to mk.6 standard)

 

Paul

[+baffmeister 1,205]

I'm no FM Guru Paulo, I was just trying to get the Sea Hawk to behave when under AI control. Like everyone else, I would like to see a more authentic FM for it. Cheers.

[+paulopanz 2,853]

I'm no FM Guru Paulo, I was just trying to get the Sea Hawk to behave when under AI control. Like everyone else, I would like to see a more authentic FM for it. Cheers.

 

Hugh, You always solved every FM issue for my skin repaints(Ouragan, Marut & SeaHawk), so You are MY personal FM Guru (taxing and take off master), and great friend.

 

BTW If something should be upgraded all we be happy.

 

Cheers.

 

Paul

[+Dave 2,320]

Woops it was 810 squadron. Too many 800 series squadrons.

[Tomb 0]

"wings over suez" gives 800sqn as FGA4's, the difference between FGA4 and FGA6 was an engine change, the current air

display Seahawk is called a FGA6 but started life as a FGA4...it's had the engine change.

 

i understand XE codes were new build FGA6's but have been unable to find pictures of HMS albion during SUEZ

 

but from some personal descriptions they were flying XE codes...FGA6

 

also 800sqn were nominally FGA4's on Ark Royal..so i have to wonder if during SUEZ, 800 sqn took over another sqn's aircraft on Albion

 

hence the dual set of serials ?