Dammit! Early British Campaigns are tough

[Olham 164]

Thanks for the reminder, Lou - I will study it closely to increase my chances of survival.

[Javito1986 14]

I couldn't even get the DH2 off the ground. Damn wing gave out on me on take off, hit a tree. Good war story for the grandchildren. Grandpa trained weeks, deployed, hit a tree on the first mission and sat out the rest of the war. Dashing heroism!

[Olham 164]

Try again from Bertangles West - you should find the size of the field quite appropriate.

[Bullethead 12]

The DH2 has a tell that will help you avoid the BH spin. If I may, I will quote myself from the above-mentioned primer:

 

I must say, I'm rather honored to have a way of killing yourself named after me. That puts me in the same elite club as the great Minamoto no Yorimasa, the 1st guy known to have committed seppuko .

Like and old tree

From which we gather no flowers

Sad has been my life

Fated no fruit to produce

 

But in all honesty, I was not the discoverer of the so-called "BH Spin". Search this forum and you'll see. That person actually deserves this great honor.

 

"Fly it a bit and pull rather hard climbing turns to starboard and watch for the point when it almost seems like it wants to ‘shudder’, (hard to explain it exactly but watch for it a number times as you stall and fall into the spin and you will see what I mean). Once you can recognise that point you only need push forward on the stick to get some air speed back and continue the fight.

 

But what about getting into the so-called "BH Spin" while in a dive and accelerating, and not pulling hard on the stick in any way?

 

And his assessment of the plane's durabililty may well be the first great understatement of 2011.

 

IIRC, you dove the thing vertically into the mud from 10k or so and walked away

[Creaghorn 10]

name='Bullethead' timestamp='1296702077' post='473529']

I must say, I'm rather honored to have a way of killing yourself named after me. That puts me in the same elite club as the great Minamoto no Yorimasa, the 1st guy known to have committed seppuko .

Like and old tree

From which we gather no flowers

Sad has been my life

Fated no fruit to produce

 

finally somebody who knows a little bit more than toranaga and kill bill, about one of my favourite subjects (samurai and medieval japan)

[Dej 17]

I have to say that I've never encountered the BH-type spin and am glad of it. The DH2's tendency to drop into a spin when you push the envelope just a little too much to nail the Einie that's so almost under your guns is quite common enough.

 

From mine own DH2 combat experience I can only reinforce what it says in the Primer, shallow bank with lots of rudder, nose down by preference, level by exception and up only if you've airspeed to spare... and even then not for long.

 

NEVER, EVER follow the enemy down unless he's definitely the last one. Stay aloft and let him come back up to you, lean over the side to see where he's zooming back up then track him round in a shallow bank using your rudder... you'll get him as he loses airspeed and levels out. Patience is a virtue in the DH2 that WILL give you victory IF the enemy affords you the luxury of time.

 

The DH2 can be handled nimbly but only in the dive so use that tactic for evasion... and then be prepared to give up and make for home.

[Olham 164]

Banking hard / turning tight in a steep climb is not a good idea with the DH-2 - you would have to gain

a lot of energy for that first, through a dive.

 

Diving with acceleration did not yet lead to that deadly "BH spin" for me - no idea what you get there.

 

For Creaghorn (perhaps you know, who wrote this):

 

Die Schneiden des Schwertes bedeuten

Leben und Tod

doch keiner weiß, welche Schneide

für was steht

[Creaghorn 10]

Banking hard / turning tight in a steep climb is not a good idea with the DH-2 - you would have to gain

a lot of energy for that first, through a dive.

 

Diving with acceleration did not yet lead to that deadly "BH spin" for me - no idea what you get there.

 

For Creaghorn (perhaps you know, who wrote this):

 

Die Schneiden des Schwertes bedeuten

Leben und Tod

doch keiner weiß, welche Schneide

für was steht

 

don't know this quote, but i would say that's s not samurai related, since the katana swords had only the front side of the blade. european swords in medieval times had swords with two sharp (compared to katanas, still as sharp as a brick) edges.

 

but similar to your quote is the legend about the difference of the two most famous swordsmiths masamune and muramasa. about masamune's swords it's said it's peaceful and calm temepered, while the muramasa blades are bloodthirsty and evil (maybe the inspiration of star wars light and dark side of the force?).

 

another method a samurai had to find out what spirit his sword has, is to hold it into a stream while swimming leaves were passing by. at a sword with calm spirit, the leave is going to flow around the edge, at a bloodthirsty sword the leave will run through the blade and will be divided into two pieces.

[Olham 164]

That sounds like an intro of a PC game - thrilling!

 

My quote was from a Zen monk of mediaeval time - Ikkyu Sojun, also named "The Crazy Cloud".

I had also wondered about the two sharp edges - I knew the Katana is sharp only on one side.

 

Compared to the European knights, the Japanes Samurai have put much effort more into the

fighting techniques and even philosophies.

While the Europeans tried to protect themselves with heavy armor, the best Japanes sword

fighters seem to have been dressed very light; open for deadly injuries - if you could hit them.

 

I like that scene in Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai", where the sword fighter has to kill that man,

who insists in a duel. You don't see his movement, and it takes some time, until the opponent

realises, that he is deadly struck.

[Creaghorn 10]

That sounds like an intro of a PC game - thrilling!

 

My quote was from a Zen monk of mediaeval time - Ikkyu Sojun, also named "The Crazy Cloud".

I had also wondered about the two sharp edges - I knew the Katana is sharp only on one side.

 

Compared to the European knights, the Japanes Samurai have put much effort more into the

fighting techniques and even philosophies.

While the Europeans tried to protect themselves with heavy armor, the best Japanes sword

fighters seem to have been dressed very light; open for deadly injuries - if you could hit them.

 

I like that scene in Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai", where the sword fighter has to kill that man,

who insists in a duel. You don't see his movement, and it takes some time, until the opponent

realises, that he is deadly struck.

 

yes. the samurai were lightyears in front compared to european knights. in battles samurai wore also heavy armor, but made from bamboo, more resistent than metal armours, but very light and agile. in fact, a good samurai sword is still one of the most prefect things, mankind has ever made. even to this day in the era of technology.

the downfall of this culture began when the borders for foreigners were opened again and the tenno tried to adapt everything from western culture.

[Olham 164]

When I see a Katana, I stand in awe of it. I just don't know, how you can make such a sword from steel,

how you can shape it so perfecly. I would actually like to see the whole process.

Such a sword, if it was a good one, must have had a very high price, and an incredible value.

Weapon high-technology that is.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Olham

[Creaghorn 10]

When I see a Katana, I stand in awe of it. I just don't know, how you can make such a sword from steel,

how you can shape it so perfecly. I would actually like to see the whole process.

Such a sword, if it was a good one, must have had a very high price, and an incredible value.

Weapon high-technology that is.

 

 

here you have the making of a katana.

 

i was once in front of a window of a jewelry. there was an original katana for sale from about 1610. for about 8000€. reason it was so cheap is because there were traces of fights and the condition was not too good. i went inside like a small child. i told him i wouldn't buy it because of no money, but i would like to see it. the owner led me to a room in the back where he showed me his collection of different katanas of different eras between 1500 and 1650. all original. some of them were of daimyios. they looked so brandnew, like they were built yesterday. i was even allowed to take them out of the scabbard and hold them, wondering how many heads must have been taken with it. but it went even better. he led me to another room where he had a pole of bamboo mats rolled together standing, asking me to try out the sharpness of the sword at this mat. one must know that bamboo mats were rolled together as a pole, because they had about the same consistence as human arms and legs. so if there was no criminal prisoner near, where to try out the sharpness of the sword, the samurai used those poles for testing. was amazing. btw. a good short baseball cut has a similar bat motion as a cut with the katana. no simple hacking but more a mixture of hacking and pulling to use the sharpness of the blade to it's fullest. i almost didn't feel the cut through the bamboo at all. almost like in the danny kaye movies where he cuts with his sabre a candle and then blows to it where it then falls down. was a great experience, maybe only those know to appreciate, who a interested in the culture and history and way of life of this era.

[Olham 164]

You lucky man - that must have been a great day you had there.

 

We had the same idea, and I found this link - amongst many others. I'll watch them all.

Now I know what they mean when the say "eolded steel". Very impressive.

 

The traditional Making of a Samurai Sword (Katana)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc&feature=related

 

 

 

[Creaghorn 10]

You lucky man - that must have been a great day you had there.

 

We had the same idea, and I found this link - amongst many others. I'll watch them all.

Now I know what they mean when the say "eolded steel". Very impressive.

 

The traditional Making of a Samurai Sword (Katana)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc&feature=related

 

 

 

 

my link is the very same, just in german

[Olham 164]

Shows, we have good taste & judgement!

[Bullethead 12]

finally somebody who knows a little bit more than toranaga and kill bill, about one of my favourite subjects (samurai and medieval japan)

 

I wish I knew more on this subject. I've read enough about the period to get the gist of it and be familiar with some of the key characters and events, but I'm certainly no expert. I did, however, read Musashi's 5 Rings long ago .

 

I suppose you'll be getting the new Total War Samurai game when it comes out?

[Creaghorn 10]

I wish I knew more on this subject. I've read enough about the period to get the gist of it and be familiar with some of the key characters and events, but I'm certainly no expert. I did, however, read Musashi's 5 Rings long ago .

 

I suppose you'll be getting the new Total War Samurai game when it comes out?

 

actually i didn't play any pc games regarding samurai yet. what i played most with friends was the board game "shogun", which is a little bit similar like the game "risk", just with many more options and possibilities. for instance you have not only soldiers like in risk, but samurai, footsoldiers, daimyos, musketeers (not d'artagnan but the soldiers with muskets), ninjas you can hire for assasinations or espionage. we even invented additional rules which were not in the game, like rainseasons, where the soldiers can only move with half speed (half dice), or half speed when passing the mountains of the Kwanto area etc. was really fun. even secret agreements among each other etc.

 

musashi's 5 rings are a tough read, but a must. also to read "bushido", way of the warrior.

btw. musashi did exactly that, what uma thurman did in kill bill vol.1. he was insulted by a member of a sword school, the next day he went there and asked the master to come out for a duel. instead he had to fight his way through to him against dozens of enemies at once. he was the one who perfected the way of fighting with two swords. he said it's stupid to die with a sword in his hand, and to have the other (Wakizashi) in his belt. was a cool guy, wasn't he?

[tranquillo 10]

Wonderful stuff. Don't get me started on ancient Oriental practices - you won't get me to stop. I've been studying them for more than 20 years now.

The Katana is, indeed, a sword to be reckoned with. So many of these ancient practices were spiritual practices and that is the key.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Creaghorn, you are a lucky soul indeed to have had such a rare opportunity. I envy you that. My basic understanding of the samurai way comes primarily from such films as “The Seven Samurai”, “Samurai Rebellion”, “47 Ronin”, “Throne of Blood”, “Ran”, “The Last Samurai”, and of course “Kill Bill”, volumes 1 and 2. I imagine this gives me a slightly inaccurate understanding. Although, I have read fair portions of Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War”, so perhaps that strikes some sort of balance.

 

.

[Bullethead 12]

actually i didn't play any pc games regarding samurai yet. what i played most with friends was the board game "shogun", which is a little bit similar like the game "risk", just with many more options and possibilities. for instance you have not only soldiers like in risk, but samurai, footsoldiers, daimyos, musketeers (not d'artagnan but the soldiers with muskets), ninjas you can hire for assasinations or espionage. we even invented additional rules which were not in the game, like rainseasons, where the soldiers can only move with half speed (half dice), or half speed when passing the mountains of the Kwanto area etc. was really fun. even secret agreements among each other etc.

 

Then you'd love the Total War series. All these things were features of the original Shogun more than a decade ago and have been there ever since, and will be in the new Shogun 2 due out in about 6 weeks. The main difference is that combat takes place in a 3D tactical situation with you as general. As daimyo. you have raised and trained the various units in your army at the strategic level. Now, as general, you have to put them in formation on the battlefield and give them orders in a realtime battle where every individual soldier is modeled. Truly epic carnage worthy of the battles of Nagashino and Sekigahara. You can even do things like Dan no Ura, although the game is set in the Sengoku Period several centuries after the Gempei War. You should really check this game out.

 

musashi's 5 rings are a tough read, but a must. also to read "bushido", way of the warrior.

 

5 Rings is no harder to read than Shaw's Fighter Combat . In fact, reading Shaw is where I 1st heard of Musashi, because Shaw put quotes from the 5 Rings at the start of several chapters. So I read Musashi as part of learning to do energy tactics in virtual WW2 fighters. And that's what gave me the most respect for him, because that's the ultimate proof of his genius. He claimed that his ideas were applicable to all forms of combat from single duels to mass armies, but he wrote in the 1600s. Even gliders were then still a wet dream.

 

btw. musashi did exactly that, what uma thurman did in kill bill vol.1. he was insulted by a member of a sword school, the next day he went there and asked the master to come out for a duel. instead he had to fight his way through to him against dozens of enemies at once.

 

If you say so. I was under the impression that such tales were legends invented much later. I thought pretty much all his duels were just that, 1-on-1 affairs. But the legend of the lone swordsman vs. the horde had to come from somewhere.

 

he was the one who perfected the way of fighting with two swords. he said it's stupid to die with a sword in his hand, and to have the other (Wakizashi) in his belt. was a cool guy, wasn't he?

 

Well, he wasn't unique in that. After all, the rapier plus main gauche, or the claymore plus dirk (with or without the targe) were tried and true methods for both the battlefield and the duel over in the gaijin world at about the same time Musashi wrote. Those are my favorite ways of fencing, BTW. Renaissance street brawling instead of Olympic rules . I had a lot of fun in my SCA days being a "swasher", too poor to buy armor but able to do the Errol Flynn stuff .

[Hasse Wind 46]

I'm no expert on samurai history, but I imagine it's much the same with their history as with other medieval or ancient historical sources - much of them is crap, lies and exaggerations by the authors of the day. That's why it's usually so hard for modern researchers to determine the number of men that took part in a battle that was fought 1000 years ago, for example. The old historians were often more interested in telling a good story than preserving the facts about what actually happened in the period they were writing about. So if there was a battle that had 10 000 men fighting against each other, it was easy to add one zero and get a much more exciting story with 100 000 men at war.

 

A great example is ancient Greece history and the Persian Wars - if you read the ancient Greek authors, you get the impression that a few brave Hellenic warriors fought against millions of Persians. Only in the 19th century did the new historians realize that such numbers were simply impossible for the ancient empires to arm and supply.

 

One must always be critical about historical writing, especially if the text is centuries or even millennia old. And anything that is written during a war should be examined even more critically, as it's usually full of propaganda, subtle or not. A good example for this forum is the memoirs written during the Great War or shortly after it.

[Bullethead 12]

I'm no expert on samurai history, but I imagine it's much the same with their history as with other medieval or ancient historical sources - much of them is crap, lies and exaggerations by the authors of the day.

 

That's an interesting issue. True, propaganda and legend-buliding has always happened and happens even today--we've seen a few examples in the current wars. But OTOH, the pendulum for the credibility of ancient sources is swinging back the other way these days. This is not to say that everything should be taken at face value. However, such accounts shouldn't automatically be dismissed, either.

 

It seems the folks who started downgrading the size of ancient armies back in the 19th Century did so more from hubris than from actual data. These were folks still soaking up the implications of their own recent Industrial Revolution and the rise of European nation states, which within living memory had made armies much bigger than they had been for many centuries before. Thus, when they saw accounts of ancient armies the size of Napolean's or Moltke's, they scoffed because they assumed that such sizes were impossible outside of their own modern situation. IOW, if the Europeans hadn't been able to do it before, then nobody else could have, either, especially if they were from "primitive, uncivilized" societies. But since then, we've deciphered many more ancient texts and learned a lot more from many archaeological disciplines. And in more than a few cases, the new evidence largely supports the numbers in the ancient sources. It seems ancient people figured out ways of doing things that hadn't occurred to Europeans, and/or that ancient populations were rather larger than previously supposed.

 

Anyway, we're getting way off course here, but it's something I find fascinating.

[Creaghorn 10]

I'm no expert on samurai history, but I imagine it's much the same with their history as with other medieval or ancient historical sources - much of them is crap, lies and exaggerations by the authors of the day. That's why it's usually so hard for modern researchers to determine the number of men that took part in a battle that was fought 1000 years ago, for example. The old historians were often more interested in telling a good story than preserving the facts about what actually happened in the period they were writing about. So if there was a battle that had 10 000 men fighting against each other, it was easy to add one zero and get a much more exciting story with 100 000 men at war.

 

A great example is ancient Greece history and the Persian Wars - if you read the ancient Greek authors, you get the impression that a few brave Hellenic warriors fought against millions of Persians. Only in the 19th century did the new historians realize that such numbers were simply impossible for the ancient empires to arm and supply.

 

 

you are for sure right. but i think things in japan were different. they had a different culture and a different attitude. of course there is always legendbuilding everywhere. that's why the red baron is so famous and why rommel is so famous and many others. but the honor in japan was a completely different thing than in the western world. and telling the untruth was one of the most dishonoring things a japanese can do, so i doubt that historians cheated with numbers. of course the story of him, beating a whole swordschool and then taking it's masters head is partially a legend. maybe in real he went there and they just talked it out while drinking sake. who knows? but musashi writes in his book "the five rings" how to manage fighting multiple enemies at once. those tactics you can adapt to any weapon of war. e.g he said that one should always attack the edges on the group because that's always the weakest spots. adapted in airfighting that means, get left-end-charlie for example. personally i'm pretty sure that there is much truth in this story, simply because they where zen warriors who did nothing else the whole liftime than practicing arts to it's absolut perfection. swordfighting, bow shooting, writing, even how to perfectly pour tea into a cup. and one swordfighter against multiple enemies is still a kendo-version in japan nowadays.

 

i think you mean the Battle of Thermopylae. as long as i know the old historians claim xerxes had 500000 soldiers, while rather hollywood talked about a million. you might be right because historians say nowadays that there were not only the 300 spartans, but also other soldiers. the 300 fought bravely against hordes of persians, that's verified, but they also said that leonidas might have done some tactical errors, which led to the surrounding and then the loss. the old greek historians rather talked about leonidas beeing betrayed instead of accepting that leonidas might have done errors (seems to happen more often in history as it seems). anyway, holding out several days agains an army 100 times bigger, to gain time is worthy enough to become a legend.

[+elephant 36]

Hey Creaghorn,

All the "myths" revealed about Thermopylae you mention, (except the betrayal) are already included in the 7th book of Herodotus, (Polymnia)...(the Persian Army according to Herodotus was 1,000,000 men, the Greek City States allied Armies were aprox.6,000).

So it's ancient history allready...(modern historians calculating Xerxes army to 300,000)

One thing about the betrayal thing that may reveals the "myth" about it, that is my own observation, is the name of the traitor: "Ephialtes" which in modern greek means Nightmare, in a literal translation from Ancient Greek though, often ignored, means: "someone who jumps over" and I don't think that this is coincidental.

 

Edited February 6, 2011 by elephant

[Wodin 0]

I love that film 300...how sad is that...