SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

I've doing multiple guns only against Su-27, MiG-29A, F-16A and F-15C, ranging from angels 10 to 20 in the F-14A. However i am low on disk space so i can't really capture any videos yet. I'll try doing a mid-late 70's fighter sweep and see if i can record it.

Tip on flying the TF30 cat, try not going bellow 350KIAS in a sustained turn and bellow 290KIAS when going for the killing nose pitch/final aim when flying against 4th generation AC. If the adversary tries to cause an overshoot by dropping in the 250KIAS regeion or bellow, just go in the vertical and/or do a dispalcement roll and line up for another shot. The bigger they are, the easier they will be to hit.

[cougar_1979 37]

Here it is, Vietnam 1975, a flught of 4 F-14A's gets dropped by a flight of MiG-17's
At the end, 1 Tomcat is down (sadly my wingman, does anyone have a clue as to how to make them useful? when i order them to attack targets they do OK, but when i tell them to watch my six they are next to usless and die way too often). All the MiG's a ground fodder by the end. Not much of an eventful ancounter except near end when one of the buggers manages to get on my tail and it takes a bit of an effort to spot him and shake him. Not too much effort though. The lesson applied here is never bleed off to much energy in a multi-bandit environement, as you never know when you may get jumped on
Enjoy

[Do335 382]

(sadly my wingman, does anyone have a clue as to how to make them useful? when i order them to attack targets they do OK, but when i tell them to watch my six they are next to usless and die way too often).

same here, i'm currently experimenting the break command. if the wingies can't cover each other, maybe just send them all out to attack. the "engage air" command always seems to put no. 2 and 4 in limbo mode..

[FalconC45 162]

I tell my wing man to engage an air target when its about 9 or 5 nautical miles out. Have good success. Use the same range if I want my wingie to protect my 6 and it works. For the second flight, guess I'm lucky cuz they do attack air targets when I ask them to.

 

Falcon

[cougar_1979 37]

Yeah, flights 2 and 3 always seam to fare better, even when just told to attack air. It's the wingman that you have to babysit. It would be much easier if i could fly as number 2, and cover his back. That way at least he would show some initiative.

So far, in over a dozen engagements i have only once seen my wingy shoot down someone when told to cover me.

@Do335 Is there a command to get them all out in attack? Or do you mean, to select individual targets and give orders one by one?

[Do335 382]

when flying missile fighters no.2 is indeed manageable, just target him on whatever you prefer. after that target is shot down no.2 will go to attack mode on his own until rejoin command is issued. if bandit gets on his tail, a msl shot can clear his six since the attacking bandit doesn't maneuver against you. or, just ask him to cover me, save his missiles only to lob 'em at rtbing migs at the end...no.4 is mostly a lost cause because player has no command to control him. the one thing i found that worked when flying phantoms was just flight rejoin. 4 will kick in burner and leave the mig in the dust while you turn around to engage preferable with sparrows. i suppose this works for cats v mig17s too.

 

however i'm mostly flying f-86s these days. apparently there're no missile and afterburners which.. changes things.

 

@Do335 Is there a command to get them all out in attack?

i'm somewhat hoping the break command does that, flying more missions to find out atm but.. wouldn't hold my breath on it :|

Edited August 22, 2014 by Do335

[saisran 84]

Based on my experience flying campaigns. No 2 shouldn't be asked to cover your six. the only reliable command seems to be "attack my target or "Engage Air/Engage ground" The only way to keep them safe is to keep them within sight. Find a bandit at asked your flight to converge on them. When flying pre-supersabers campaigns. no 2 and no 3's gunnery has always been better than me. I find a target and hunt it down while repeating attack my target command. if i find a bandit closing in on my six i get no 2 and 3 to attack it and try my best to rejoin them or else they will be swarmed by a flight of faggots and be broken down to 1v1. Friendly AI gets dumb when under this situation. This was strengthened by my earlier flight. Decided to rest the F-14 and improve my piloting using a much older but more manouverable jet. Started a new campaign. My squad of Furys tangled with a bunch of mig-15s and meteors. Climbed up with my wings and dove in on the meteors. Targeted the trailer, ordered the attack and we cut through the flight guns ablaze... of course i missed but one of my wingie didn't. Got in to following circles with one of the meteor. the flight was spread apart so i got 2 and 3 on the next clossest bandit. after my quarry reversed his circle. my wingie bagged their target so i prompted them to go after the meteor trying to save his friend from me. was able to predict my quarrys' next move and bagged him after he reversed his turn, change his mind and reverse his turn again. By this time my squad has bagged the last meteor and the first mig-15 that joined the fight. i was able to hit one on a head to head (was a suicidal attempt to get at least two kills). No 3 is already out of ammo so its now number 4 that goes on attack mode.  (Yup, 4 only goes active when no 3 is either dead or gets dry). At this point number 3 is a sitting duck and no 2 should be running out as well. Since the remaining migs are on escape mode i decided to do the same before enemy reinforcement arrives.

[cougar_1979 37]

That was a very helpful post! I will try to implement it in my next dozen 2 and 4 VS many and see what results i can get.

[Do335 382]

Based on my experience flying campaigns. No 2 shouldn't be asked to cover your six. the only reliable command seems to be "attack my target or "Engage Air/Engage ground" The only way to keep them safe is to keep them within sight. Find a bandit at asked your flight to converge on them. When flying pre-supersabers campaigns. no 2 and no 3's gunnery has always been better than me. I find a target and hunt it down while repeating attack my target command. if i find a bandit closing in on my six i get no 2 and 3 to attack it and try my best to rejoin them or else they will be swarmed by a flight of faggots and be broken down to 1v1. Friendly AI gets dumb when under this situation. This was strengthened by my earlier flight. Decided to rest the F-14 and improve my piloting using a much older but more manouverable jet. Started a new campaign. My squad of Furys tangled with a bunch of mig-15s and meteors. Climbed up with my wings and dove in on the meteors. Targeted the trailer, ordered the attack and we cut through the flight guns ablaze... of course i missed but one of my wingie didn't. Got in to following circles with one of the meteor. the flight was spread apart so i got 2 and 3 on the next clossest bandit. after my quarry reversed his circle. my wingie bagged their target so i prompted them to go after the meteor trying to save his friend from me. was able to predict my quarrys' next move and bagged him after he reversed his turn, change his mind and reverse his turn again. By this time my squad has bagged the last meteor and the first mig-15 that joined the fight. i was able to hit one on a head to head (was a suicidal attempt to get at least two kills). No 3 is already out of ammo so its now number 4 that goes on attack mode.  (Yup, 4 only goes active when no 3 is either dead or gets dry). At this point number 3 is a sitting duck and no 2 should be running out as well. Since the remaining migs are on escape mode i decided to do the same before enemy reinforcement arrives.

interesting... putting the player in command mode. i may not be able to let go like that, but will try it out.

[saisran 84]

http://youtu.be/fJTJV7VScYk

 

Tried my hand on capturing game play. Pardon the poor graphics but my laptop isn't really that powerful so i'm using a software that doesn't drop the frame rates, and lost a lot of quality uploading to youtube.

 

I was hoping to demonstrate how to use the AI wingmen but i got too concious on the recording part trying to make it as short as possible so i failed to do several things. 1. not to look too pathetic compare to the AI 2. Watch my surrounding and protect my squad properly 3. isolating targets and 4. not getting killed.

 

If you watch the video you can see the AI is able to jump in close to the target and get a high percentage shot. i was just throwing bullets to confuse the bandits and got a lucky kill. However i failed to notice an enemy and no 3 got shot down. the bandit soon came after me so i tried to fly as straight as i can trying not to get shot down so as to allow no 2 and 3 and easier shot on the one trailing me. This is a good tactic when your in a fast fighter than cannot turn. Coz once the enemy fixated on you it wont defend itself. part of the command chain should be "rejoin" and guide your flight out of the fur bull. In the end i missed the vampire that flew over my canopy. I figured that it wont be able to make the turn and catch up but it did i died. 

To be fair to the AI wingmen. I had better success using this strategy in campaign mode than what is captured in the video. There wil be times where no 2 will  say negative on the attack which means he got lost or something and cant get a visual on your target. Call him back to formation and once he's plane is close enough hell be happy to get the bandit off you.

[Do335 382]

sweet! we need more sf2 videos.

the fury is a monster with those 20mikemikes!

Edited August 24, 2014 by Do335

[saisran 84]

sweet! we need more sf2 videos.

the fury is a monster with those 20mikemikes!

 

Those guns really are awesome. Though they were a nightmare to fly with a keyboard. Glad i finally bought a flight stick. I'm not being grateful and no offense meant but could use some advise on how to work the FM of the Fury It has this tendency to nose up dramatically at low speeds ( great during dog fights) but nose down during high speed. Kinda tiring on the wrist during the long haul to and fro. other than that. ITs a Damn Sexy Plane!

[cougar_1979 37]

After some experimenting with different orders and taking more of a commanding role i got this video. Unfortunately not the one to be my first choice, but my PC crashed and i could not save the original footage. It was a 4 VS 8 and although i lost no4, i did manage to save no2 and no3 on two separate ocasions. This one was much more docile 4 VS 4, NAVY Phantoms VS some MiGs. Except for some wingman delegation, and over the top battlescape evaluation, nothing special. I didn't even get to properly use my gun pod. I will try some Crusader II flights later on. Enjoy

[cougar_1979 37]

The quality on this one suffers, but it had to be done if i was to upoad it tonight. 4 F-8s VS at least 5 MiG-19s. These guys are by far the most tricky dogfighters i've encountered over SE Asia. I did my best to clear any bandits from my wingies six, but no4 seams to have bought it. I should not have left the second flight to attack on their own. And these are my first 2 gun kills in the last of the gunfighters. Anyways, a lot more dogfighting in this one then the previous one. I hope you like it. Any recomedations and shared experiences are welcomed :)

 

[Do335 382]

you're on a roll cougar! keep em coming :)

[saisran 84]

Thanks for the vid. I'll try to upload a video where the AI truly outclassed me. Haha.

 

I kinda miss Eric and Caesar's DACT Reports. Those are always a good read.

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

both are still around here, but fairly active with other things now. EricJ esp shifted his attn over to ArmA and internet cats lately. but agreed they were some great reads when this thread started

[saisran 84]

internet cats! hehe

[Caesar 305]

Yep, still here, just have been doing other stuff.  I'll get around to posting a report again sometime in the future.

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

Caesar! (To the tune of everyone yelling Norm)

 

What have you been upto since you got back to CONUS? Thats when you seem to have tapered off the posts and mods

[saisran 84]

 

So the engagement started with me trying for a head to head and missing. Pulled up and looped round and almost lost control, then followed by some blind shooting and a lucky shot. By then my wingmen took over.

 

 

Demonstrating how bad a shot i was. Overshooting a couple of times and almost loosing it. My maneuvers aren't really that good by i managed to willed in a few kills. Yeah. Love my Fury!

Edited August 25, 2014 by saisran

[cougar_1979 37]

Saisran, if you allow me i can offer you some tips on air-to-air gunnery.
First and most important is practice practice practice. Unless you were born in the few lucky percent that are natural deflection shot takers, it is completely normal to hit nothing but thin air at the start of your aviator career. And unless you are in the unlucky few that just can't grasp off angle targeting, it is only a matter of time before you feel right at home.

Now for some more practical input.
Second, until you become extremely comfortable in your predicition skills don't open fire too early. On most of your videos you shoot from quite far away. Which is not a bad thing if you hit the target. But until your gunnery improves, try opening fire only after your target takes up your entire gunsight. Or even closer that that. Key to deflection shots is not where the bandit is, but where the bandit will be when the stream reaches it. In order to make a proper estemate, you need to be able to descern the bandit's lift vector and for that you need a clear sight of his/her wing orientation. So shoot from closer ranges.

Third, overshoots aren't bad on their own. In fact i prefer to overshoot all the time. What is bad is if a bandit ends up on your six after the overshoot or if you bleed off too much energy trying to prevent the overshoot in the first place. What i prefer is to let the bandit get away a bit and follow him in a lag pursuit. Don't lead him just yet. Build up your energy. Get either speed or altitude advantage or both. Now, most flight manuals will advise you to get your lift vector on the bandit and pull in order to get a good lead pursuit. I would advise you instead, to get your lift vector on his LIFT VECTOR. Therefore you intercept the point in space where he will be and can unleash your fire in advance. This is why it's imporant to be able to see his motion and shape clearly. As you start closing in, you will reach a point when an overshoot is imminent. It takes some time to recocnise it, but i think you are already able to  do this. When this point is reached don't break! Roll out of the turn, pull up out of the bandi't plane and get some altitude advantage again. During all of this keep your eyes on the bandit!  Lear to fly with your eyes out of the cockpit. As you gain altitude start rollin into the enemy again. Setup for another lag pursuit and repeat the above process.

I hope this helps mate!
Safe flying

P.S. I am uploading another DACT over SE Asia, but this one will take at least an hour and a half more to finish. Slow net and large file size.... :(

[zwz 0]

Can somebody play a F-16C block50 vs something? (Su-27, Mig-29, F-14, F-15, J-10, J-31...)

[Do335 382]

most flight manuals will advise you to get your lift vector on the bandit and pull

eehh, i'm not even sure that worked at all before the teen fighters appeared!...

[cougar_1979 37]

eehh, i'm not even sure that worked at all before the teen fighters appeared!...

Maybe it worked of you had a tighter turning craft and a lot of excess energy. It worked for me in IL-2, when flying the F-4 Wildcats in a dive against Zeros, but not for much else :P

Even then i prefered to fly vector to vector instead of vector to bandit. Flying directly to the bandit seams to me, is not just energy prohibitive, but also rather...... retroactive? It always seam to keep you one step behind the bandit. But that's just me.

 

Anyways. here is my next DACT. This one went horribly wrong :(

4 F-8s in two flights. I went up against at least 6 MiG-17s, 5 of which were primary targets. My original plan was to let the element attack and then follow them into the engagement with my wingman close behind (ordered to cover my six) in order to cover them and set lose my no2 at need. Unfortunately, this turned out to be more of SAM dodging contest then ACM. In the first minutes of the engagement i wound up dodging 2 SAMs and lost all sight of my element. By the time i found my way back to the fight, no3 and 4 were already dead, so it was me an no2 against the whole bunch. I set him lose few times in order to trick the 17s into bleeding them selves off in ever tighter turns, but in the end i ended up socring 5 of the 6 kills (2 with guns). The last kill was with bingo fuel so i had to abort any further pursuits and ordered back to base. At least no2 got back safely (and i did safe his hide once). Unless for some energy eggs and missile/gun use while bouncing this video has little educational value...... except for how NOT to lead planes into battle :(