SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 3,970]

Well I think I have some references around my hard drive...

 

Just to get this out:

 

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x tanks, 2 x AIM-9X, 4 x JAGM (modded Brimstones), 2 x GBU-38, 1 x GBU-12, 1 x GBU-51, ATFLIR

Opposition: Two Mig-19s

 

Takeaways: This is a fight I did last week just out of curiosity more than an attempt at a real report, but nontheless... Dealing with the MiG-19 boils down to just plain power and maneuverability. As such since I had a heavier load I was at a real distinct advantage, eventually killing both MiGs... However it should be pointed out that you shouldn't get too cocky as I managed to let one MiG get a bead on me (one shot tracers at me, real nice green ones...) and shoot off a tailplane and if I remember a wing. But it can be done, but another takeaway is tactical patience. They're frustrating to get a gun kill with at this loading, and if your missile goes stoopid (and I had to be fair to limit myself to two, one for each plane) you're left with your gun with a heavy load, which if you can't jettison (out of fairness) then the Mig will eventually get you.

[+daddyairplanes 8,880]

@ Ceasar the 102 doesnt have a gun, but the Six does! i forgot that while it is still designed for being a fast genie lobber, it actually handled very well esp in the later years. it was being considered by Gen Agan, head of ADC during Vietnam, to be deployed for escort duty up north! the "bubble" canopy, gunpod and ariel refuel capability are results of his desire to get into the game!

[Caesar 305]

This time we're going to the Summer of '69. F-8J Crusader vs. F-100D Super Saber, 2 fights.

 

Loadouts (Both Fights):

F-8J: 4x AIM-9G, 4x 20mm, 100% fuel

F-100D: 4x AIM-9B, 4x 20mm, 100% fuel

 

Fight #1

 

The F-8J Crusader handled the F-100D a heck of a lot better than the Voodoo. The MiG Master doesn't have great thrust to weight, but I've found that it can sustain its turns better, and regain energy faster than the Super Saber. The fight started neutral, then went into a one-circle. I wanted to be sure that I didn't burn away my energy, so I put the Crusader into a 5g turn against the Super Saber. The Saber pilot was pulling harder and began getting nose on, so I pushed to a 6g turn. The Saber did get nose on, but I was too low and he didn't have a firing solution.

 

 

He kept pressing horizontal, so I went vertical. As I reached the apex of my loop, I attempted to rudder-roll and force the nose to slice down into the Saber. This did not work very well; I did get nose on for a second, but was too far away, and entirely out of energy. I did have a positional advantage, however, and decided to exchange altitude for airspeed, bringing the nose down. Once at the Saber's altitude, I had built enough energy to turn with him. I had the Sidewinder tone, but the bandit was still turning too hard for me to employ it. I had been pulling a bit hard to keep up with the Saber and we both began to run out of energy. We began a downward one-circle spiral.

 

 

I was trying to figure out where I needed the Crusader energy-wise, so as not to give the Saber the advantage by pulling too little and widening my loop, but also needed to ensure I didn't get too slow and make myself a sitting duck. I had built some speed, but trying to get on the Saber's tail had burnt it down again. The Crusader can't sustain "g" as well as later or more powerful fighters, so it wound up being about a 2.5g turn at 250KIAS at about 3000 feet AGL that kept me gaining on the Saber, ever so slowly.

 

 

The Saber couldn't even sustain this speed, and was falling down into the 210KIAS region as I slooooowly rebuilt speed and continued gaining. Eventually, the Saber tried to press vertical as my nose was coming on his six. He didn't have the energy to start, nor the thrust to push himself through and he pulled back horizontal just as I achieved nose-on. I gave a bit of lead and took a snap shot. The Saber detonated off the Crusader's nose. Racks of 4 20mm guns on planes like the Crusader, Saber and Voodoo are pretty friggin' devistating! Fight #1 over in 3 and a half minutes.

 

 

 

Fight #2

 

This one took about 2 minutes and 40 seconds. Using what I learned from the last fight, I knew I had the Super Saber in both acceleration, climb, and turn rate, especially if I beat him down on energy. I started this fight with a more aggressive two-circle, loading 8.3g, turning towards the Saber's nose. I got nose on a few seconds before the Saber, but his plane is pretty small, and I know the AI is better at getting "face shots" than I am. I perform a moderate-g barrel roll over the Saber to prevent him from shooting me.

 

 

This time, I pull horizontal and the Saber goes vertical. I figure, he's gonna run out of energy. It's an exact opposite of last time - the Saber rudder-rolls his nose onto me, but more precisely. Fortunately, I'm speeding along and can put on some "g" to prevent him from shooting me. He's low enough on airspeed that he can't effectively shoot, and doesn't ever take a single shot. He blasts through my altitude, and I press vertical. Rudder roll, get nose on, this time I don't have the energy and I pull to get co-altitude.

 

 

 

 

During my fall, I've regained power. We both come through our turns and barely miss nose-on. We continue the one-circle, but I've got the Power (and The Touch - get it? get it? HARRR!) to get towards his six. I get within parameters to send an AIM-9G his way, which fires and tracks, but then looses its target. Fire a second and it goes stupid. I was at some angle-off, actually. In this case, it doesn't matter. My energy state gets me on his six and I have him saddled. Get him in the center of the pipper, shoot and miss the first time. Second time the burst tears the Saber apart (doesn't blow up like the first one, though). Game over!

 

 

 

Takeaways: The Crusader is a pretty good gunfighter compared to the Saber, and far more maneuverable than the Voodoo. It primarily lacks power and sustained turning performance, but it does beat those other Century-Series fighters even there. The package of 4x AIM-9's and 4x 20mm cannons is a pretty effective loadout for blasting bandits outta' the sky.

[xclusiv8 35]

I never see the A.I do these manouvers you guys see. Mine just go round and round in circles. Dont belive i have ever seen them go verticle. Sometimes they go up and then fast down and keep doing that.

[Caesar 305]

For me, it depends on the plane. I've noticed ThirdWire American fighters like to press vertical, as do the Soviet MiG-17, -19 and -21 if they're offensive. Not sure what defines it, but there are planes that do it, and others that usually don't.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: A-4G Skyhawk with 4 x AIM-9M

Opposition: F-14B(96) with 4 x AIM-9M and 4 x AIM-7 Sparrow

 

Year: 1985

 

Needless to say that the Skyhawk was used a lot during "Top Gun" (the real one) and was prized for the small size and impressive roll rate. Since I have the DLC one and wanted to try it I tried it... Anyways started neutral (both of us facing away from each other, starting to like that setup). The lighter Skyhawk can turn inside more than the Tomcat itself so it really wasn't hard to get a tone with the 9Ms for a quick shot. However I wanted to be nice and let him play a bit but in the end he turned and he overshot, extending slightly with me pulling hard getting used to the restrictions of the Skyhawk more as I turned into him. He started a circle so I went vertical, came over the top and he was moving slow and I took the shot, downing him. If you notice with the June 2011 patch that some of the aircraft splashed while there were some fragments.

 

Takeaways: Not much as it is easy to turn into a heavier plane with a lighter one, obviously to the chagrin of Tomcat pilots.

[Caesar 305]

One thing to remember: weight isn't everything. The F-14B has a far superior thrust to weight ratio compared to most versions of the Skyhawk (between .92 and 1.08:1 compared to about .61:1; the one exception being the Super Fox, which was about the same) and better wing loading (roughly 55lb/sf compared to 71lb/sf). This equates to better sustained turning performance, higher sustained "g", better acceleration, climb, and performance in rolling and flat scissors. I do wonder to myself how to make the F-14 and F-15 tougher opponents, because like you show in your DACT, I eat them alive when I fly the Scooter, and that's not typically what I hear or read when it involves a Scooter fighting an F-14B or F-15 in the real world.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Very true... And to the general public this is how it works in game and not real life, as Caeser pointed out so eloquently. But then again I think the lower thrust to weight ratio is what saves me since it goes faster and i go slower I can work him to what I want, which I do on "offline" bouts, I'll lower my thrust to prevent an overshoot and set him up (usually) for a radar guided missile kill.

Edited June 30, 2011 by EricJ

[Caesar 305]

Going back to 4th-gen again, this time we've got the F-14A taking on the F-8J, 14 October, 1974.

 

One of the things I've come to notice is that the game handles its older series fighters pretty aggressively. In this instance of a 1v2 against the 2 F-8's, the F-8's survived longer than many modern opposing fighters I've gone up against in DACT, including the MiG-29A, F-15C, Mirage 2000C, F-14B, among others.

 

Loadouts were:

F-14A: 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

F-8J: 4x AIM-9, 4x gun, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

Fight started off as a one-circle, since I know I've got the performance edge over the F-8's across the board, but also that I'm huge and if one of 'em gets nose-on in a two-circle, he's a lot more likely to hit me than I him. At 15,000 feet at my weight, I've got a 5.5g sustained turn available. I initially go slightly nose-low to get about 8g going into the threat. As I get closer, I know I want to try to snap the nose around quick, so I don't want to loose too much energy and drop the turn to 5.5g. I get nose-on way before the F-8's and close, performing a Max-g pull to try to get a firing solution. I have pulled a bit too late, and push nose-low to build energy.

 

 

 

As I pull up, the Crusaders have split. One of them is coming nose-on, the other is working to my six. Again, big plane vs. small plane nose to nose = bad for me. High g barrel roll over the F-8 and continue vertical press, this time to try to wing the nose around quicker than my opponent. He gets some separation (about 1.5 miles, too close for AIM-7, and head on so no heater shot). Now its a one-circle, and I go for a sustained 6g turn (full blower, about 5.5k feet) - this is higher than the F-8 can do by a bit, and I'm gaining pretty rapidly.

 

 

 

F-8 wingman had abandoned his press and was back with F-8 lead. I maintain my turn into the F-8's. I see that the wingman is trying to hold position on his lead's tail, which makes him a bit of an easy target. I bring the turn again to around 8g, which bleeds off my airspeed, and plants me onto his six. Lead can't do anything. Perfect firing parameters, Fox 2, AIM-9 Golf to the tail. With the wing finished off, I make some minor adjustments and lead's on my nose. I get tone, but this has to end correctly. Select gun, get a good tracking solution, and guns on the F-8!

 

 

 

 

Total fight time was about 3 minutes, 10 seconds. Again, the AI fights pretty hard with those Vietnam-era aircraft. I had a better thrust to weight, better wing loading, and could outperform the F-8 across the envelope, but they put forth a valiant effort, and worked pretty well to try to hit me from multiple angles at one point.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F-14B(96) 4 x AIM-9L, 4 x AIM-7M

Opposition: A-4G Skyhawk with 4 x IRIS-T

 

After the above fight I wanted to see it for myself... I'll say that it takes more IMHO to muscle the Tom than the Skyhawk. The Skyhawk had the advantage of off-boresight missiles while I had limited off boresight missiles. Started off and wheeled around getting my nose into the Skyhawk after him, so he overshot and we did some circling with me pressing him but he was lower, trying to spike me with an IRIS-T, missing by sheer luck and I turned into him some more. Eventually we turned and he went high, starting to either lose visual or simply runnning out of energy. In any case I had a shot, I took it, and missed. Okay kept on tracking him while I'm keeping the nose on him as much as possible, since the canopy frame was in the way I had to go for a near HOBS shot, killing him.

 

Takeaways. Again based on Caesar's post above, the Skyhawk should typically lose or make it a fair fight. However in the game... if that IRIS-T had connected this report would have been much different as per the bottom screenshot (which somehow is out of sequence) shows he had me dead to rights. So in the SF2 series the Skyhawk is a little beast but that's all I have to say on that.

Edited July 1, 2011 by EricJ

[+EricJ 3,970]

F/A-18F Weight: ~52,000lbs with 2 x AIM-9X, 8 x AIM-120

Two A-4Gs Weight: ~41,000lbs combined with 4 x IRIS-T each

 

Which proves Caesar's opinion

 

Started off neutral with both coming around with me pulling my nose into one quick. Again move move move when dealing with high maneuverability aircraft and I took no time in setting up the first Skyhawk for a 9X kill. Checking the map I noticed the remaining Skyhawk "shadowing" me off on my 7... 8ish but turning into me. I turn back into him and we overshoot slightly with him not getting a missile off. I turn back into him using my superior manueverability against him getting behind him. He notes I'm coming in hot so he slows up with me nearly ramming into him. I pop the brakes go idle to get him out there so he's not crowding me. I'm about to stall so I retract the brakes and throttle up again, while he goes lower and I turn into him. I nose up for a HOBS shot, thinking it'll go stoopid but connects.

 

Takeaways: The faster and more maneuverable the fight, the quicker it's going to be. Because when I'm doing fights like this here's my mantra: Knock it down to one to make it more manageable. Sure killing both is a great idea, but you have to stay aware and move and think fast. Reason being is while you're focusing on that one, the other is coming around to box you.

[Caesar 305]

Did a 1v1 in the F-14B against an A-4F Super Fox Skyhawk, and a 1v1 in the Super Fox against the F-16A Block 1. The Super Fox was well known for embarrassing fighters that should have gotten the better of it, thanks to the fact that it was stripped down to reduce enough weight to give it a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio (at low internal fuel quantities), and was already a nimble little airplane, difficult to keep sight on, and with the slats unlocked, a horrendous jet to try to kill in close. Its light weight helps it to build available "g" quickly, and the plane can turn quite well. The Super Fox involved in these fights, however, was a "hard wing" version; easier to take on in a tight furball. The first fight lasted for 2 minutes and 38 seconds, the second, 2 minutes and 10 seconds.

 

Fight #1:

 

Loadouts:

F-14B: 2x AIM-9L, 2x AIM-7M, gun, no tank, 75% internal fuel: .98:1 T/W, 55.5 lbs/sf WL

A-4SF: 2x AIM-9P, no gun, no tank, 100% internal fuel: .71:1 T/W, 71 lb/sf WL

 

Since I can't set the enemy fuel state, I had the better T/W from the start, and better wing loading. One of the things I hadn't realized before the fight is that the gun was stripped too! (I just installed the Super Fox) So, I was vigilant to keep the Scooter's nose away from my Turkey Beast head on. Fight started neutral, and I began a one-circle. Initially I was pulling 8.5g into the threat, which was still bleeding energy a bit at 15,000 feet. Because I was expecting to have to press vertical, I let off to 6.5g which helped regain a bit of energy while still producing a good turn (think the Beast sustains around 6.5-7g at 55,700 at 15k feet, 450KIAS).

 

 

I start getting nose on, but I'm not going to be in a good firing position, so as we pass, I press vertical. I probably should have done so more aggressively, since putting a 4g pull onto the plane resulted in me burning a lot more altitude/distance and energy. The Fox stayed horizontal, coming slightly high to begin to follow, and I had a bit of energy to rebuild. As I came down from my perch, I had built a respectable amount, but not enough for a full aggressive press.

 

 

 

The A-4 was still traveling horizontal, and I pulled into him. He reversed and a flat scissors ensued. Here's where the Fox got the advantage: I'm lower on energy, loaded up, and his instantaneous turn is better than mine at slow speeds. After about two iterations of scissor, the first massively to my disadvantage, the second just barely so, I explode into the vertical again. By now, I'm at better than 1:1 T/W, and the Skyhawk again cannot match me. Since I entered the vertical at lower energy than I had hoped, I dropped the flaps to wing the plane around a bit quicker. It worked, the Fox running out of energy as he attempted to follow pure vertical. He takes long enough to recover the plane that I'm able to ease my nose into a threatening position.

 

 

Those huge flaps generate a lot of lift, but also a lot of drag, so I bring them from full down to "take off" configuration, full blower to try to continue my press and regain speed. It works, and the Fox doesn't have enough energy to go on. He pulls high and left, but I've got enough speed by now that I'm matching him without the Turkey giving me grief about pulling harder on the stick. The Fox levels off to reverse, putting him in the heart of the Lima envelope, just under a mile from my nose. Fox 2! Kill.

 

 

 

 

Takeaways:

I could always modify the Super Fox to carry less internal fuel to get it closer to what the aggressor pilots had, but I also fear that may cause the plane to immediately RTB. The plane starts with roughly 5600 lbs internal, and from what I understand, aggressors flew it at around 2000 lbs. As it stands, I fought the fight as I had to: use the vertical to my advantage. My end fuel state was 9050lbs, still more than 50%, and my total weight at fight's end was somewhere around 52850 lbs (compare to the A-4's 15480 lbs start weight). Will probably try for a 1v2 some time in the next few days.

 

Fight #2: A-4F Super Fox vs. F-16A Blk 1

 

In Fight #2, since I was the Fox driver, I took off with less gas to better represent the Aggressor Fox. Compared to the F-16, the Super Fox had only slightly worse thrust to weight and wing loading thanks to those damn LERX's the F-16 has making vortex lift. Since I don't know exactly how to calculate it, I won't know his exact wing loading in a turn, but if I remember correctly, its somewhere around 45 lb/sf when the Viper is fast enough in a turn to generate it.

 

Loadouts:

A-4SF: 2x AIM-9L, 50% internal fuel, no gun, no tank: .90:1 T/W, 49 lb/sf WL

F-16A: 4x AIM-9L, 100% internal fuel, gun, ECM pod: .92:1 T/W, somewhere between 85 and 45 lb/sf WL

 

Having fought the F-16 before, I know that starting two-circle is just asking for a Heater to the face when using 9L or later (usually a 1:1 exchange, but he's got flares and I don't), so one-circle it is! This again illustrated to me the great instantaneous turning capability of the A-4. The little bugger loads an 8.3g turn into the F-16, but because it builds "g" as quickly as it does, can keep that "g" going for a while. By the time I'm down to 350 KIAS, I'm still at about 8g, and am nose-on on the F-16, the Sidewinder tone going in my ears. I could fire, but he's at a bit of angle off, and I only got 2, so I want a better firing solution.

 

 

 

I'm initially able to hold my turn with the F-16, but with his afterburner going, the F-16 starts getting away. Rather than try to go over the top, I roll the Super Fox on its back to try to get nose-on quick. This happens about 3 times as the F-16 continues a horizontal descending turn. Each time, I'm going from around 230 up to about 330 KIAS between 4 and 7g. As we run out of altitude, I know I have to take the fight horizontal again, and pull hard into the Viper. I'm feeding in too much rudder, unfortunately, and the Skyhawk begins to depart. I fight it, nose-low at, probably 2500 feet AGL. Skyhawk recovers, but I know that Viper hasn't been wasting his time. He's coming in from high, about 7 o'clock. I pull into him hoping to make the Lawn Dart a Lawn Dart, but it doesn't work.

 

 

 

On the other hand, the Scooter's 720-degree per second roll rate and g-build help quite a bit, and I reverse into the F-16. A two-iteration scissors ensues, and we're getting nose-on each other nearly simultaneously. Well, knowing he has a gun and four heaters, I decide to take the initiative. I pull into him at the start of the 3rd iteration as he pulls into me. Just as we get nose-on, I fire an AIM-9L at his snot locker. Closure rate was slow enough, and distance great enough for the heater to acquire and maneuver head-on into the F-16, which detonates just below, nose-on. Good kill, fights over.

 

 

Takeaways: The one thing to remember about light planes, which also justifies EricJ's beliefs that a lighter fighter can usually give a heavier one a run for its money, is that they can typically build available "g" and turn rate quicker than the big boys (if not sustained). As the screen of my nose-low pull shows, I had about 6.9g on the jet at .59M to curl into the F-16 - that's pretty damn good. And I didn't even have the slats! Suffice to say, NEVER underestimate a Scooter, especially a Super Fox, 'cause he will eat you alive.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: Mirage IIIC with 1 x Super 530, 2 x Matra Magic Mk.2

Opposition: F-4E(78) with gun, 4 x Sidewinder, 4 x Sparrow

 

Year 1980

 

Fresh off the download I tried the DLC Mirage IIIC on a whim. I started neutral and turned slowly into the Phantom, which all things considered has a better turn rate than the Mirage. I expected the delta wing to be better but then again we're looking at the time, 1980 versus the Mirage 2000C, which has a far better turn rate than the Mirage IIIC. The Phantom pulled me into an energy circle in which I was actually losing and all things considered since I was down on energy I didn't consider it at the time, trying to just keep the bird aloft... Instead I turned into the Phantom (not recommended with all aspect weapons on the target aircraft) but managed to get my nose on the Phantom, launching my first Magic. It tracked fine and splashed the Phantom.

 

Takeaways. Honestly I was surprised at the handling of the Mirage or the tightness of it. Of course it is an older plane so it wasn't a surprise. Also of note is the use airbrakes to help your nose get on the enemy plane when trying to get a good solution. It's recommended of course if you're behind the target and not advisable (unless you're lucky) against multiple opponents. However since I was dealing with one it helped to slow the aircraft down and allow a tighter turn.

[+daddyairplanes 8,880]

sounds almost like the engagement in The Warbirds again except with AAMs! that said if there were 3 reasons for multiplayer in SF2 it would be 1.You 2.Ceasar 3. this thread!

[+EricJ 3,970]

Well... i've actually thought about it and yeah that would be interesting But its all about being professional

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F-4E Phantom II (78) with 4 x AIM-9L and 4 x AIM-7M and gun

Opposition: Mirage IIIC with Super 530F and gun

 

Started off neutral... and the AI handles the Phantom (along with most others) with ease, but when I fly the Phantom, I just think I have a real bias as we started off with me easily turning into him, but that was about it after that as I did get a nose on shot but he was moving too fast across my canopy. So I pressed for a kill and at one point the Mirage got below me trying to spray me with bullets but they didn't connect. Again with the Phantom wallowing like a pig I still pressed for the kill. I managed to eventually turn into him (bad mistake, remember my previous post on the danger of doing this?) getting a winder off but he also shredded me, but I was hospitalized and got a Purple Heart out of the deal.

 

Takeaways. The Phantom is still not my preferred ride but for the Phantom lovers it's not bias but it's way too clunky for me. I feel that if you can get yourself in a good spot then you can shoot him down easily with Lima winders.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F-5F Tiger II with two AIM-9L and 150gal tank, guns

Opposition: Mirage IIIC with Super 530, guns

 

This went waaaay better than the one with the Phantom, keeping it era-specific rather than What If as I've done sometimes in the past. In any case started neutral and turned into him. I tend to really pull on the stick heavy, problems when you fly advanced aircraft (other than the Super Hornet) you have more "play" in pushing the envelope. In any case I had a shot, but I didn't take it as I wanted to play with him. In any case about another thirty seconds he started a circle and extended and I pulled my nose past him and launched my first AIM-9L and it killed him. It should be noted that the "killscreenshot" my flap setting... Yeah I'm glad I got him or he could have come around and worked me good.

 

Takeaways. it's been a very long time since I flew the F-5 (other when I was helping VicRamano/FastCargo) in doing the skinwork, but since it was era-specific I felt that was a better idea than a heavier (and not just the Phantom) aircraft. The F-5 handles well against the Mirage and as I said before, I could have easily shot him down but had to take some time, which is a liberty that sometimes you can take.

[Caesar 305]

Got a pair of fights today, first is a modern set up, Tomcat vs. Typhoon, second is a look at two light fighters, Tiger II vs. Fishbed.

 

F-14B Tomcat (96) vs. EF-2000 Typhoon

 

I didn't take too many pictures during this fight, expecting to have to do a lot of maneuvering, but it wound up taking about 1 minute and 55 seconds. The Typhoon can be a tricky opponent, since it max performs at lower speeds than most fighters, i.e. it has both higher turn rate and smaller turn radius at closer to 350 KIAS compared to other planes which are typically max performing at around 400-450.

 

Loadouts:

F-14B: 4x AIM-9X, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

EF-2000: 8x ASRAAM, 4x AIM-120, 100% fuel, gun, no tanks

 

Fight started with the typical one-circle, but I am surprised that the EF-2000 hasn't pulled harder into me. At my current weight, I'm just below 1:1 TW, but will achieve 1:1 within seconds of the start. I've got a solid 9g turn into the Typhoon, and notice that I not only get nose-on, but am pulling to lead the Typhoon. I relax the turn a bit, then pull hard to try to slide onto his tail. During my pull, I begin burning energy a bit too quickly, and we wind up in a one-circle, with me slightly outside of shooting parameters on the Typhoon.

 

I go nose-low, but rather than do pure vertical, I keep the turn in the horizontal and ease off on the g, letting the Tomcat's GE engines rebuild energy. They do so quickly. The EF-2000 had gained some separation, and then pulled hard across my nose. I have tone and figure this sucker's got 9X's, they should give me an easy kill. FOX 2! The next-gen X-Ray goes stupid. The EF-2000 driver also did not adjust his turn, but kept pressing into me, releasing flares upon my firing. Fortunately, I had good energy and kept my pull into the Typhoon. As we passed, I was burning airspeed and the Typhoon reversed into me. A flat scissors ensued, but I was at just the right energy state for such a fight. I cut the throttle for the first iteration, forcing the Typhoon in front of me, and pulling into him, now modulating the GE motors between military and blower to get the performance I need.

 

 

 

Second iteration, I'm still behind the Typhoon, and he reverses again, with me still inside of his circle, this time slightly low. He runs at this point, but is right in front of my Tomcat. This time, I don't waste a shot at angle off - got burned earlier, not gonna let that happen again. I let the Tomcat's nose reach the Typhoon's hot exhaust and get a good tone. The Typhoon has begun to reverse as I fire my second X-Ray, which guides true and is not fooled by the Typhoon's flares. Solid contact, good kill, fight's over.

 

 

 

Takeaways: The EF-2000 wasn't the most difficult opponent, but he was also loaded up with more stores and more fuel than me, which undoubtedly affected his performance. I also didn't let the Typhoon use his instantaneous turning advantage against me during most of the fight. When I pulled into the scissors, I suddenly thought "damn, this is stupid!" but by then it was too late. I was fortunate, however, to have the responsive GE engines, and was able to keep the energy where I needed it to best the Typhoon even in that fight. Things just worked for the Turkey today.

 

F-5E Tiger II vs. MiG-21bis

 

These two aircraft are very evenly matched; the F-5E and T-38 were used by TOPGUN to simulate the MiG-21 since the foundation of the school, and the Tiger II is even used to this day by VFC-13. Like the A-4 Super Fox, the Tiger II can be a surprisingly difficult opponent thanks to its instantaneous turn rate and its well-known ability to "snap" its nose around at slow speeds.

 

Loadouts:

F-5E: 2x AIM-9J, guns, 100% internal fuel

MiG-21bis: 2x AA-2, 4x AA-8, gun, 100% internal fuel

 

The fight starts with a one-circle, and I get nose-on first, but the AIM-9J is a rear-aspect missile and has no chance for a shot. We pass by each other, and begin a nose-low turn. I check my airspeed for a moment and suddenly realize that the MiG-21 has reversed and begun to pull vertical just as I pass him. "Loose Sight, Loose Fight" - oh damn! Well, I pull horizontal into him and the Fishbed begins a yo-yo. I pull high myself and we have the start of a rolling scissors. Because I had made a bit of an extension while the MiG was performing his yo-yo, the scissors is spread literally over a mile of separation, but we're both pulling into each other's lift vector, trying to sustain angular momentum to achieve an advantage.

 

 

 

At about the third iteration, I pull back a bit hard on the stick at the top and end up in a position of advantage. The MiG now pulls pure horizontal to run. I put on a sustained turn at about 6g and get onto his six. He's going straight, and begins to pull up. FOX 2! Juliet 1 comes off the rail stupid. FOX 2 again! Same as before. WTFO? Guns it is and I realize I'm going to overshoot. I reef on the stick for all I've got and the F-5 over-alphas and departs. Lucky for me, that rudder's humongous authority is usable and I recover the stricken Tiger very quickly.

 

 

Post-Recovery

 

Not only that, but the MiG doesn't have time to get to a position of advantage. He's high and going towards my 3 o'clock. I nurse the Tiger's nose back to a threatening position and the MiG is flying fairly straight, probably making up his game plan. He starts a series of maneuvers to try to get me out front, but I've got him saddled and am not going to let him make me (nearly) overshoot again. Take a snap shot with the gun and miss. Still saddled, boresight lock, bit of finessing and take another gun shot. This one saws off the MiG's vertical stab, causing the pilot to punch out. Fight's over.

 

 

Takeaways: The Tiger is a maneuverable little plane, but you have to be careful with it. I did some fam hops before this fight to re-learn its envelope, and learned that it will depart damn quick in an over-alpha. It can get that nose around quick, but if you pull too hard, expect to go on a ride. Fortunately, it recovers pretty quick too, unlike the Voodoo. It is a very even match for the MiG-21, handles the horizontal slightly better, and like the Skyhawk, should not be underestimated within visual range.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F/A-18A with 2 x AIM-9L and 2 x AIM-7F and gun, 300 gallon tank

Opposition: Mirage IIIC with Super 530F, gun

 

Starting off I turned into the Mirage, easily getting my nose on him readying for a shot but however I decided to play with it keeping him defensive by him starting an energy circle. He then extended south and that's when I took a near HOBS shot shooting him down.

 

Takeaways: As you can tell the real lack of information is pretty simple: The early model Hornet easily outmatches the early Mirage by maneuverability (didn't take the time for weight similarities however I feel it's evenly matched given the same energy state we both had) and that's about it.

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120, guns

Opposition: Four Mig-23MLD with 4 x AA-8 and 2 x AA-7, guns

 

I figured if Ceasar can do it, I can give it a shot (no pun intended). Started off neutral and instead of banking to the right I came over the top, targeting the first MiG-23. I had a good shot so I took it, however my first 9X tracked into his wingman while the first targeted Flogger came around and overshot me. I was getting lock indications from the other set so I had to jink in order to disrupt the shot. Keeping tabs on the overhead map I followed my target, firing my remaining 9X, downing him. Now it got interesting as I had AMRAAMs and gun, and wasn't looking for a gun kill. In any case I targeted another Mig, in which he extended to the west, allowing for a WVR kill the last Mig was flying in formation with the third kill but thankfully he didn't turn into me and shoot me with sn Aphid. The remaining Mig-23 was coming around for the kill slot so I pulled up and came around. However it looked like the remaining Mig was actually heading north (had be been on the ball I probably would have taken an Aphid or Apex up the engines) so I locked him up and fired my remaining AMRAAM, downing him. 2 minutes and 32 seconds later I'm wondering if I should head on down to Disneyland...

 

Takeaways: I tend to imagine that scene in Top Gun with the "MIG-28s" swarming around Iceman or whoever when I flew this, or how I figured this probably looked from an outside point of view. Essentially it was at some point... But in another case when you have more than two it gets... interesting. In any case the major point is knowing your aircraft and weapon capabilities. I only had two WVR weapons and were readily expended without them going stoopid on me, which is born out of getting your aircraft within near perfect firing parameters. Sure the first shot hit the "wrong" aircraft but I still managed to shoot my original target with the remaining 9X. In the case of the AMRAAMs it's taking a less maneuverable weapon, and employing it in the WVR fight with highly maneuvering targets, maneuvering your aircraft for the kill. And the last point is remain defensive but take the offense as soon as you can get it whenever you can. Sure in a loosest sense I got tunnel vision but keeping focused on the target while preventing a shot from another opponent is the name of the game here.

 

I need to start putting this in the gallery so I don't have this out of sequence stuff...

[+Spillone104 553]

To be honest the Matra 530 should not be used against fighter as it was considered a dead weight in most occasions. The Super 530F and the D (Doppler) are far better missiles, sort of a mini Phoenix but still not usefull at short range.

[Caesar 305]

Today's fight: F-14A Tomcat vs. 4x MiG-21bis Fishbed; year 1981. The MiG-21 Fishbed is a bit more challenging close in than the MiG-23. It has better maneuverability across the board, but slightly worse acceleration and no BVR capability. Compared to the F-14 at combat weight, it has worse wing loading, but similar thrust to weight. It can also handle surprisingly well at low speed/high alpha. Fight time was 3 mins 7 secs.

 

Loadouts:

F-14A: 4x AIM-7F, 4x AIM-9L, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

MiG-21bis: 6x AA-8C, gun, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

The F-14A has the advantage over the MiG-21 across most of the flight envelope. In this case, the fight was fairly one-sided. Initially, I pulled about 8 to 9g into the threat. One of the Fishbeds pulled away as bait while 3 of them headed for my tail. Unfortunately for the bait aircraft, I was equipped with the AIM-9L, and because he continued on that vector, the Lima I fired at him tracked and destroyed his plane with no problems. After firing, I continued my pull into the other Fishbeds. I varied "g" between 9g and 6g to sustain turn into the threat, but also to get myself into an advantageous position on the Fishbeds tails.

 

 

 

As the third Fishbed initially was falling behind, I started engaging him, but then #2 became lazy and provided an easier target, so I fired a Lima in his direction. This one missed, but I was getting into a good gun position, got lead, and sheared off his tail. I then pressed on one of the remaining two MiGs, while the second was trying to close on my tail. MiG#3 was below me, so I initiated a bit of an expanded yo-yo to get onto his tail. Coming down to his level, I fired and bagged #3 with a Heater, looked right, and saw the final Fishbed turning into me.

 

 

 

 

I pulled hard into him to try for nose-on and saw we were going to get it at about the same time. I kept the pull, but began deploying flares preemptively, expecting a close-range nose-on shot by an AA-8. I was inside of minimum range too quickly, and he never got a shot. I reversed the Tomcat and pulled towards the MiG's tail. Here's where the wing loading and superior sustained turning performance of the Turkey shined through. We were in a one-circle now, getting towards 250KIAS. I dropped my flaps to "take off" and continued my pull into the Fishbed. It was plainly obvious what was going to happen. The Tomcat took a few seconds, but got nose-on inside the MiG's circle, and I got a good tone. FOX 2! Smack! Fight's over, good kill.

 

 

 

 

Takeaways: the MiG-21 is always a bit trickier if you have to shoot them from the rear quarter, but given this set up, I think it would have taken similar time even if I were equipped with the AIM-9D or H. The first Fishbed I bagged was flying in a straight line; the Lima's better maneuverability wasn't even necessary there. Second kill was with guns, third and fourth were the ones at angle off and may have required a bit more working. Suffice to say, the MiGs were outperformed this time around.

[+EricJ 3,970]

To be honest the Matra 530 should not be used against fighter as it was considered a dead weight in most occasions. The Super 530F and the D (Doppler) are far better missiles, sort of a mini Phoenix but still not usefull at short range.

 

Unfortunately I just take what the game gives me in that regards and it's never had a problem using its guns

[Caesar 305]

This is an example of the payoff from the constant DACT we've been posting about. No pictures involved for this one.

 

In this case, I went in for some combat in the year 1977 in an F-14A Tomcat with my wingman in an F-4B Phantom II. The competition was a set of four MiG-23 Flogger L's that came to take us down. I was loaded with 4 AIM-7F between the engine nacelles, 2 AIM-54A on stations 1B and 8B under the glove pylons, and 2 AIM-9H on stations 1 and 8 above them, max internal fuel, and tanks. Initially we took off, and I figured, let's do an "Alt-N" thing to get into combat, since I'd have shot at far distance the instant whatever competition got in the air, and I wanted to give 'em a fighting chance. And a fighting chance they got!

 

Popping off the tanks, I detect a flight of four Floggers at about 12 miles off the nose. Lock up the first one and fire an AIM-54 in his direction. I break lock at 9 miles (Phoenix was PITBULL at this point) and selected the next Flogger, instructing my wing to attack. That's when three of the Floggers burned through my ECM and put 3 AA-7's in my direction. Soooo...no one noticed the F-4? Anyhow, hard break to try to beam their radars and deploy chaff. I can see the missiles' smoke trails and can see that two of the three took the chaff, which I am still pumping out, because #3 is not fooled. After realizing I was probably going to buy the farm, I did a hard nose-low rudder roll which caused the remaining AA-7 to get confused and it missed slightly behind and left of my Turkey.

 

Okay, good, why the hell hasn't my wingman fired yet? And now I'm also outta' chaff! In the process of the defensive maneuvering, I notice that one of the Floggers is a flaming wreck, my first AIM-54 has done the job. From this point onward, I also notice two things: #1 - my wingman is utterly incompetent and #2 - the Floggers know this and focus ONLY on killing me. From my position below the Floggers, I pull pure vertical and hear a FOX 2 call from my wingman, which has no effect. I get the trailing MiG-23 on the nose, get tone and fire an AIM-9 at him. I immediately notice that it went stupid, so I put another in his direction, which tracks and shoots him down. Okay, let's see where the remaining two MiGs are.

 

Both of them are turning hard into me. Set the sights on one of them and send wingy to deal with him while I deal with the second one. Here comes the fun part. Over the span of no less than 3 minutes, my wingman is utterly incapable of harming "his" MiG. Not only that, the Floggers aren't even maneuvering to go defensive against the Phantom, but rather to be wholly offensive against me! I have to change who I'm engaging multiple times, and energy management, honed through our constant DACTs, is what keeps me alive. Every time one of the two Floggers gets to a threatening position, I had maintained enough energy to both maneuver to nose-on and close the gap to inside of minimum range so they can't shoot.

 

After a series of circles against both remaining Floggers, exchanging offensive and counter-defensive maneuvers, I get into a decidedly advantageous position against one of the two MiGs, while his wingman is facing the other direction (180-degrees+ of turn to threaten me). Initially, I see I'm two miles out and send an AIM-7F his way. The Sparrow Foxtrot initially guides, then goes stupid. Okay, I'm now inside of the Sparrow's minimum range, and am closing for gun. I check on his #2, tell the Phantom to shoot him again, then re-focus on "my" Flogger. Close to within 1 mile and then see #2 getting nose on again. S#!7. The damn Phantom is behind him and isn't shooting! I try for a quick angle-off snap shot but it misses, and now I've got to AGAIN pull into my attacker. This is the closest that #2 is to firing parameters, but he again misses the chance.

 

Sadly for #2, my Flogger (#1) hasn't made the best decision and tried to turn in my direction in his defensive pull. After a quick, high-g rudder roll, I spit my Flogger out, lock and he's traveling too fast. He falls outside minimum Sparrow range and I fire. This one guides and hits the Flogger. One to go. I hear over the radio "FOX 2" - holy hell, my wingman actually shot! Wait, it doesn't matter, the Flogger is pulling into me to try to kill me again, and wingy's heater doesn't track. I had begun a horizontal scissors slightly before wingy shot, and the Flogger was not winning. He pulled away a bit trying to run when he realized I was going to get onto his tail. I cycled weapons, initially selecting gun, then selecting Sparrow; or rather, thinking I selected Sparrow, boresighted the MiG as he pulled defensively into me at about 1.8 miles. FOX 1! Hrmm, what's with the long delay? The Buffalo rockets up and past my Tomcat. Oh damn! No way that's gonna hit at this close range! Not a big deal, I'll just keep my turn, but wait! The giant AIM-54 has achieved lead! The Flogger detonates off of my Tomcat's nose. Mission Accomplished.

 

Takeaways: In a 1v1 you can beat the opponent down on energy, and many times I do so. Also, when fighting with only rear-quarter shots, you have less to worry about, less angles to cut off. In this case, I had an opponent who had a BVR face shoot capability, as well as AA-8's which were at least a match for my Hotel Sidewinders. Indeed, the enemy did get shots on my Tomcat and nearly killed me before the engagement even started. On the other hand, had I not used "Alt-N" it'd probably have been far more one-sided. Remember, in a furball that starts with nose-on, if you survive the initial exchange, maintaining enough energy to maneuver is tantamount to survival. Had I tried for a low-energy rolling scissors fight, one of those three remaining Flogger's likely would have sent an AA-7 my way as my wingman faltered horribly to try to shoot one down. Instead, without any chaff left, it was maneuvering and energy that saved my ass every time.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,970]

Me: F/A-18F with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120

Opposition: Four F-5F Tiger IIs with gun and IRIS-T

 

Well... it started off neutral and by the time I turned into them all four were literally pointing at me like daggers. It had been a few days so my mind had to shake off the rust as I got over the initial shock and got down to business. The first order of business: Cut down the opposition. I managed to maneuver on my first kill, firing a 9X killing it. Moving on to the next one that was moving northwards then sharply turning to the east, with me firing a 9X. By this time the third Tiger II was coming up on my rear trying to setup for either a guns or missile kill, so I went vertical with him overshooting me. Somehow I got behind him (or the fourth) and went for an AMRAAM kill. Well... I missed due to the fact that the Tiger II was really close and the AMRAAM couldn't maneuver fast enough. Okay fine, I then overshot and broke out by going over the top out of a possible solution and managed to reacquire and shoot him down. The last one... not sure what was on his mind as he stayed low while I maneuvered unsuccessfully for another AMRAAM kill. Managed to go over the top and finally nail him.

 

Takeaways. The F-5 in all it's variants is a tough plane, and very hard to see, even with IRIAF camo applied. It's small size allows for misjudgement at speed and had the third Tiger been more on the ball I would have gotten smoked easily. That and the fact that at the very start all were pointing right at me. Not something that makes you happy but even the Tiger can best the heavier fighters if in the right situation.