SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Heretic 2]

I think somebody more experienced in the Phantom can give a report as IMHO its good for a bomb truck and that's it.... Bur that's my limited experience rather than an opinion with the Mig Killers on the forum...

 

Well, most of my SF1 flying was in the Rhino, so I'd say I've got some experience fighting MiGs. Not as much as the professionals tho', but it's enough to survive and catch a few with guns.

 

 

 

 

As far as SoCal being updated I don't think so as I updated it on my own.

 

Mkay. So I guess it's DIY then. Hooray for tutorials in the Knowledge Base! :D

[Caesar 305]

Okay, gang, I've been flying a lot of Turkey sorties, so I figured I'd take a bit of a break...sort of. Two DACT reports thus far, first is an A-4F Skyhawk vs. F-14A Tomcat. That's right, I decided to school some Turkey students and go against my beloved F-14. Second fight was two legends: F-8J Crusader vs. F-4J Phantom.

 

Engagement 1 Loadouts:

A-4F: 2x AIM-9H, guns, 100% fuel, no tanks

F-14A: 4x AIM-9H, 4x AIM-7E-2, guns, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

This first fight proves that the AI can't handle the Turkey well at all. Unlike some of the more modern planes, which use their thrust and turn rates to their advantage, or even some earlier planes like the Phantom and Crusader, the AI does not seem to be able to make calculated, energy saving turns in the F-14A, nor does it drive the fight to the vertical, where the Tomcat has the advantage. This was a basic one circle fight, where I had just firewalled my engine (no burner) and put on a sustained 6g turn against the Tomcat. The Turkey crew initially turned with me, but then for some reason, cut throttles. He's in a heavy jet at 100% fuel, and the TF-30's aren't helping his cause, now he takes it out of blower?

 

 

 

It takes about a minute for me to decidedly get on his tail, but once I got behind his 3/9 line, he begins dolphining the plane! Let's burn more energy that we don't have, shall we? This winds up putting me right on his tail. Screw this guy, he doesn't deserve a quick missile to the ass (which by now I could have delivered with ease.) Close on the F-14 and tear him apart piece by piece with my 20mm. Like the Tornado, the Tomcat took three good bursts to kill, fired within about a 15 second period total. The first burst caused him to pull high, but I followed. Second burst caused him to try to unload nose low, and third finally caused the crew to punch out. What an embarrassment! Well, true, A-4F's and Super Fox's would better both F-14's and F-15's (even later F-16's and -18's!) if those later fighters fought the Scooter's fight (which this Tomcat did), but it wasn't even funny.

 

Bingo, Maverick's dead, you're outta there, kid.

 

 

 

Engagement 2 Loadouts:

F-8J: 4x AIM-9H, 4x 20mm gun, 100% fuel, no tanks

F-4J: 4x AIM-9H, 4x AIM-7E-2, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

 

 

This fight took longer, but was almost entirely offensive on my part. It was, above anything else, a drawn out one-circle, which turned into a descending one-circle. When I was getting onto the Phantom's tail, I was somewhat low on energy, but faster than the Phantom, which meant that I couldn't get my nose on him completely, and was probably going to overshoot. A rolling scissors ensued for about two iterations, and it then flattened, with the F-4 just barely getting inside my turn. I pushed the nose vertical, dropped flaps and pulled to get inside of his turn. He ran, and I stood on the rudder to get my nose to slice down. It did, but the F-4 was getting away. Fortunately, he went in a straight line for a bit, then turned into me, but hadn't regained enough energy to effectively loose me. I went to gun for a high angle-off attack, but the F-8's cockpit got in the way and I couldn't see the F-4. He shot out in front of me, and I kept pulling moderately, which allowed me to get on his six. He was now climbing and getting away. Hell with it, FOX 2! I figured he's got enough energy to get away, I'm just trying to get him back into gun range. Nope, Sidewinder Hotel hits right under the tails and the Phantom detonates about a mile in front of my Crusader. Wow, wasn't expecting that one.

 

 

 

The second fight, like the first, called for energy management, but the F-4 didn't piss it away like the F-14 guy did. For the most part, my F-8 was in a 5g or less turning fight, but with some random spikes into the 9g region to get nose positioning (didn't work well anyway). Since I took on the Echo, I might take on the Fox in a Turkey to see if there's much difference, I think the AI just botched this fight.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18F with EPE, 2 x tanks, 1 x ATFLIR, 2 x GBU-38, 1 x GBU-12D/B, 1 x GBU-51, 2 x AIM-9X, and gun

Opposition: F-22A with gun.

 

I had done a similar bout in the SF2 Screenshot Topic but a heavier load, so I modified by Afghan strike loadout by adding an additional 9X for the fight. Turns out I didn't need it after all. As it was unarmed except for its gun it should be noted that I had to visually acquire it. After the merge I went high and turned into him, managing to stick with him most of the way. The only limiting factor of course that I blacked out easier due to the lower G tolerance of all the weapons (and I was 62,890 pounds as well) so most of the fight in order to keep energy was to keep it in burner most of the time. He managed to get me nearly into a horizontal scissors and I broke away. He turned east and I reacquired him with my 9X after trying to gun him down or at least I tried to set myself up for a gun kill prior to the scissors but that didn't turn out as I liked. As he turned east he came around to the west with me pulling on top of him on my perch and took my first shot with the 9X tracking and killing him.

 

As noted the F-22A is a phenomenal aircraft and should not be taken lightly. As noted sometimes I give the enemy weapons but in all sense of the word I would have been shot down before I even got within visual range. Then again I start out with him heading towards me so...

[+daddyairplanes 8,668]

EricJ in your Thud report you said you had a Mig on your tail for most of 14 minutes. in real life, if a Thud pilots bombs were gone and the mig was on his six, standard tactic was to open the throttle all the way. or as i heard it told, nothins faster than a scared Thud!!!

also am i seeing the screenies right? is that a french mig v brit Thud?

[+EricJ 3,937]

@Heretic I have little experience in the Rhino (F-4) other than strike missions and small training missions and can shoot down a MiG with a good Sparrow. And yeah adapting the map to SF2 standards is not very hard, best bet is to also check the topic about adding carriers to maps here in General Discussion.

 

@daddyairplanes No you're seeing right as when I switched aircraft I didn't switch nations (EF2000 vs. Mirage 2000C fight) so didn't pay attention to detail when changing

[+EricJ 3,937]

First off Dels, I hate you

 

In all seriousness....

 

Bout 1

 

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X, 8 x AIM-120.

Opposition: F-31A with gun.

 

In short the F-31 is just simply lethal. The F-31 is of course a "What If" concept borne out of the X-31 technology demonstrator and well... it's agile to say the least. This bout started off with us in the merge and we overshot each other. Well usually I can turn into my opponent and well do what i gotta do but this thing.. it's on you like flies on s*** instantly as while I was trying to figure out where it was it was coming from my right getting into gun range and by the way firing. So I tried to shake him and well just couldn't as I tried to pull into him, nope right on my ass and not stopping either. Maybe I should have cut thrust and forced an overshoot but then again I think it would have just set him up for a better shot as I tried it before and at the merge just got chopped to shreds. I blacked out quite a bit but still he was on me so eventually he gunned me down just like that.

 

Takeaway? If you have long range missiles use your BVR-Fu

[+EricJ 3,937]

2nd bout

 

Me: F/A-18F with EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and gun

Opposition: F-31A with gun

 

I thought with a lighter loadout I'd be good to go but it's just the same way, just maybe with a different view on how I get shot down. The only notation is that before the last image was taken I had thought I was at Mach 1... nope my engines were shot and my tailplanes gone. Some of my right rudder was missing. Needless to say I ejected and got another Purple Heart.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F-22A with 2 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-210C and gun

Opposition: F/A-18F with EPE, 2 x AIM-9X and eight x AIM-120C and gun

 

I started this off by coming from his 9 o' clock simply because I knew he'd shoot me down if it was a head on. As soon as he saw me he pulled and I followed.. sort of. I say sort of because I was hanging with him but couldn't bring my nose closer for a better shot and at some point I went vertical and I thought he was going away from me but in reality he was burning hard for a 9X kill. Had he been more on the ball he would have gotten a kill as I was coming up. He did manage to get into another position and thought he fired or was about to but I ejected flares and so he didn't take a shot. Eventually I turned into him and he went east a bit and we engaged in quite a few horizontal and vertical energy circles. Towards the end he was right above me while I was near vertical I shot my 9X and killed him.

 

Takeaway is my description. If it sounds confusing then it was confusing as the EPE Fox Super Hornet can turn quite well and you have to work for your shot in order to get it. It's confusing because if I think about it now we were in a bubble and must have hit the majority of degrees in it and if it was for real then well I would be kinda just chillin after what could best be described a "vertigo fight" because even simulated I'm kinda feeling it right now.

 

Oh sorry Wrench for the debris in LA...

[Heretic 2]

Seeing the F-31...I'd do things I can't post about here to get my hands on the model and 'pit source files to adapt it for FSX...I've always wanted one of those!

(Although the thrust vectoring won't work in FSX)

 

 

 

in real life, if a Thud pilots bombs were gone and the mig was on his six, standard tactic was to open the throttle all the way. or as i heard it told, nothins faster than a scared Thud!!!

 

I must be doing it wrong in the campaigns then.

 

Because just firewalling the throttle and saying "bye,bye" doesn't work against Fishbeds. :|

 

 

 

@Heretic I have little experience in the Rhino (F-4) other than strike missions and small training missions and can shoot down a MiG with a good Sparrow.

 

I've learned the hard way that even a Sparrow won't save a Phantom more than once. It's all in guns, lol.

[+EricJ 3,937]

True getting a Sparrow kill is a matter of sneaking up on him and shooting him that's about it...

[+EricJ 3,937]

Been busy for a couple days so couldn't get anything done.

 

Me: F-22A with 2 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120, gun

Opposition: Su-30MKI with 2 x R-73, 2 x R-77, 6 x R-27R, gun

 

After shaking the rust off I decided to take on the MKI. Although I admit everytime I do a Flanker vs. Raptor engagement and I think of an image I saw at DeviantART that showed the F-22 being shot down by a Flanker. Seriously the later Flanker variants are advanced.... but it can't handle the Raptor. Anyway started the merge and began the fight. The visual arc I think is over modeled as I really don't think the 5 to 7 accurately models the visibility of the aircraft. We started the turning fight and he tried to shoot at me with one Archer but missed with no use of countermeasures. He tried again when I was high and he was low again with no countermeasures at the time. The missile simply couldn't make the intercept in order to engage. He had managed to get ahead of me and had I been focused on a gun kill I probably would have gotten a shot off or winged him. Forcing me into an impromptu horizontal scissors which he did force me to overshoot but as you can see from the relevant picture that he didn't have an angle. turning inside he headed west as he couldn't get a lock and he turned around to the east in which I lined up for the 9X shot, firing and killing him.

[+daddyairplanes 8,668]

try a guns only against the Flanker. if we get into it with china , one would think they would sortie a gaggle of older gen fighters to deplete the 22's missles, then send in the flankers when our guys are winchester!

[+EricJ 3,937]

True but I think in some cases the MKI is overmodeled (i.e better than it probably is) so other than that scissors I had no real range on him anyways. And good point

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X, 8 x AIM-120, gun

Opposition: Su-30MKI with 4 x R-73, 2 x R-77, 6 x R-27R, gun

 

Well daddyairplanes good hint as I got a guns kill on the MKI. Started off prior to the merge ejecting flares as I knew he'd turn into me (visual blind arc disabled for AI purposes) and try and pick me off with an Archer. Well he did and the first one was defeated by both flares and maneuvering. The second one he tried to snapshoot me with missed by maneuvering. Then he flattened out and we began a convoluted horizontal scissors with me going to idle and popping the brakes. Once he realized I wasn't going to play he decided to go into the energy fight and take me out that way. It should be noted that I did try and gun him down earlier (damn Vulcan has tooo high of a rate of fire...) but kept on missing due to his maneuvering. Once I realized he was going for the energy fight I went vertical, came over the top and continued to try and gun him down. He managed to dodge and when I had my pipper just forward of him I let loose killing him. Overall comparison is that the EPE Super Hornet can match the MKI in the close fight with little difficulty. It's just I like to play with the opposing aircraft to evaluate its actions.

 

Takeaway is that the MKI when properly weighted down (18,400 instead of 17,500 I think) it acted much as expected a plane that size should perform. But it is a highly maneuverable aircraft but once you get past it's arsenal it is possible to destroy it in the close fight. The other takeaway is that even the basic Archer is easy to defeat, and if you're aware he's got them then a steady ejecting of flares should get you into the knife fight and take the launching aircraft down.

Edited March 7, 2011 by EricJ

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: Su-30MKI with 4 x R-73, 4 x R-77, 2 x R-27R, 2 x R-27RE

Opposition: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X, 8 x AIM-120 and gun.

 

Decided to go role reversal and try the MKI out... Before merging the Super Hornet managed to get a 9X off and somehow or some other it missed, which is fine but didn't know he shot it at me. Got into the merge and I'll let the screenshots show but I will say that in reality the situational awareness is sorely lacking in the real MKI so if (and the EPE Super Hornet could) get in the kill slot and smoke you. The Su-30MKI is just heavier and for a good portion the Super Hornet was on my ass quite a long time before I managed to extend the brake forcing an overshoot and near mid air collision which was helped by the ability to see through the back, which if I hadn't I'd be shot down way long before I got my turn.. Once I had him I fired my first R-73 missing due to defeat by flares. Fired another one and was defeated. Fired the third one and that one I believe was the kill shot while the fourth one missed.

 

Like the F-14 energy management is the key here when dealing with the Super Hornet EPE (which I doubt will be released pending reality) to get the kill rather than brute force because it'll dance around you and take you out. Other than that the MKI is a real good plane but since it also lacks TVC (in-game) you can only do so much.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18E Stock with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120 and gun.

Opposition: Su-30MKI with 4 x R-73, 4 x R-77, 2 x R-27R, 2 x R-27RE

 

Decided to go with the "low end" or the current download of the Super Hornet and still came out on top. Entered the merge with the MKI turning and launching flares at me. I have done a reality edit on the F/A-18F and apparently I get more separation with the Archer than without so my E is going to be fixed. Anyways after his shot he stayed low and flew past me. Before this I had adjusted the visibility settings of the fuselage (so now it actually blocks your view rather than allows it) which produced a different result than yesterday. Today the MKI was less aware of its blind spot, which shows maybe how good the AI can actually "see" or maybe it's just me. In any case once I turned into him he automatically entered into a horizontal scissors trying to force me to overshoot. I did try and gun him but he managed to dodge that shot as well. Having realized that I throttled down to idle and deployed my speedbrakes trying to stay behind him. The MKI continued to try and work me into one nearly getting me but having such a low speed I managed to turn into it and staying "behind" him. I let him extend and after getting bored for him to do something I shot him with an AIM-9X.

 

The most important to realize is that the MKI at the loads listed above is 15,000 lbs roughly heavier than the E Super Hornet. And the consistent part is that whether he "sees" you at two to four miles he can turn into you, lock you and get a missile off fairly quick so if you're not paying attention or not Archer aware he can shoot you down.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: M2000C S4 with 4 x Matra Magic II, tank and gun

Opposition: MiG-29A East German with 4 x R-73 and 2 x R-27R, gun

 

In a nutshell the M2000C and A MiG-29 seem pretty well matched iin terms of maneuverability as we both spent a few times passing each in different angles and altitudes. We both simply outmaneuvered each other, though the MiG-29's radar did set off the RWR when he managed to turn inside of me. Sensing a possible R-73 shot I ejected flares, which may or may not have been needed but why take the chance when you don't have to? In any case he did not fire on me and I took the opportunity during one pass to try and shoot him as the main reason was just to see how the Magic IIs worked out. He drew me into a circle fight in which I went vertical but then again he eventually turned into me and passed me again. He started to lose energy so I tried for a gun pass but no luck and settled tor the missile kill. He came around again this time coming low and then from my perch took my second Magic shot and nailed him.

 

Takeaways. The Fulcrum-A is a tough airplane and small, allowing you to easily lose him in the background if you're not using the padlock function, and even then for the "killscreenshot". Eventually I had to use F6 in order to get a good picture as the canopy rail got in the way of when the Magic blew the Fulcrum's wing off.

[xclusiv8 35]

How do you guys set up these missions? Do you start on the runway and then meet up on a specific waypoint?? How do you do it?? Thanx

[+EricJ 3,937]

I start in the air just behind and to the left of my opponent as well as he.

[Caesar 305]

Okay, it's been a few days, then in a week or two it'll be a two-month hiatus for a particularly useless TDY. Anyhow, fights for the day are set in 1974, F-14A Tomcat vs. A-4F Skyhawk (reverse of my last DACT report). The A-4F is definitely a nimble little bastard, and it'll get on you right quick the instant you let it. I flew two fights against the A-4F.

 

Fight 1 Loadouts-

F-14A: 4x AIM-9H, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

A-4F: 2x AIM-9H, guns, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

Fight started neutral, and I went for a max performance turn, but pulled a little too hard a little too early, resulting in about an 8g turn that I let bleed down to 6.5, then 6. I had nose-on first, but no face-shooter to hit him with, so, thinking big plane=big target for guns, little plane=little target for guns, I opted to pull into the vertical. As we passed (I went right above him) the Fox driver took a snap shot, which caused me to pitch quick just in case; no hit, so I continued a high loop to get on him.

 

 

He began a turn, and with gravity aiding me on the way down, I initially thought I'd be able to hang with him, but I hadn't built up enough energy, and the Scooter started to get away. I was too fast for flaps, too slow to match his maneuver, and had more than 18k to work with, time to go nose-down. I began a low half-loop, a bit extreme to be called a yo-yo, but it kept me behind him, and let my energy build a bit. Plugged in the burners and pulled up onto his tail. I fired an AIM-9H which he pulled into, and it missed. Great, he'll probably out turn every damn missile I've got; he's gotta go with guns. I closed, had enough energy to stick to him and outmaneuver him by this point, got in range and hit him with a snap shot, damaging his left wing, fuselage, rudder, and I hadn't noticed it yet, but causing the pilot to punch out!

 

 

Got closer, inside of the "safe" distance (the plane was still flying and I thought the pilot was still in control), and was starting to get above him, but he slid right in front of my nose, and damned if I wasn't gonna take the opportunity. Hazaaah! Guns! ZZzip! Off goes the port wing, its armament, landing gear, and other Tinker Toy bits. TOP RUDDER! I was probably less than 20 feet away with the Turkey's starboard wing from the Fox wreckage, but passed by without a strike. Close!

 

 

 

Fight 2 Loadout-

F-14A: 4x AIM-7E-2, 4x AIM-9H, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

A-4F: 2x AIM-9H, guns, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

Fight 2 was a lot faster. Considering that we were nose-on at nearly the same time last fight, I figured, why sustain energy? Rather, I pulled an 8.5g sustained turn onto the Scooter's tail at the start. The A-Minus Tomcat doesn't sustain energy like the Turkey Beast or Super Tomcat, but it does preserve enough energy at high airspeeds to allow for some good rough handling. By the time my AWG-9 locked up the A-4, I was at his 7 o'clock, with the Fox in a moderate left-hand turn.

 

 

I knew he'd beam my AIM-7's, so I waited a bit, slowed a bit, and followed him. Damn, can that Fox get his nose around! In about 10 seconds, he's beginning to get nose on me! I've still got 2+ miles, and know he's going to press for guns. Fox 1, and Fox 1 again! Ripple fired two AIM-7's knowing I still had about .8mi before Rmin, and that one or both would likely fail. The first Sparrow came off the rail and began guiding true, the second one ran off into the desert. The Fox pulled to try to beam the missile, but darned if the Great White Hope didn't slam into the Scooter just behind the cockpit. The whole aircraft burst into flames and began a spiral into the desert floor.

 

 

Takeaway: The AI cannot handle the F-14A in any sense, from what I've seen. The A-4F might be a nimble opponent, but rarely ever got around to threatening me. It was a more difficult fight than the A-4E when I went for guns, but nothing out of the ordinary. Respect the opponent and don't fight his fight. Any Time, Baby!

 

Edited March 10, 2011 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18E Stock with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120,gun

Opposition: F-29A Polecat with 2 x AIM-9M, 2 x AIM-120, gun

 

It seems that Ceasar's words of advice hold true for this What If design. Whatever really came out of the X-29 project may never be known but since we're dealing with the "combat" version of this plane... Like the F-31A the F-29A has a lot of energy and the ability to just turn into you whenever possible. Three times prior to this session the F-29A managed to turn into me, and while I was trying evasives easily launch a Sidewinder into me. So I had to edit the mission so I can at least get a fighting chance and not get shot down so quick. The forward swept wings and the canards give the Polecat impressive maneuverability allowing it to turn inside of your turn. Hence the Super Hornet since I felt that was maneuverable enough to handle the Polecat. So for nearly five minutes we managed to not shoot at each other, though the Polecat did manage to get a burst of 20mm at me at some point. Fact of the matter is that even breaking out of the energy circle is difficult as I had it's radar pinging my RWR quite a lot. And I also had to watch my altitude as I was nearly flying into the ground in order to get a confident shot. Even with the 9X it becomes instinctive for a good shot, and quite frankly the Polecat wasn't going to give me one, as I tried going vertical and after he launched his first winder he also tried to gun me in the same breath. His winder struck me and I ejected.

 

Takeaway... well the Polecat isn't a joke in a knife fight as along with the F-31A it's in a class of its own...

[+SidDogg 130]

...Let me guess.

 

...Most of ya'll fly with you Flight Model set to Normal...

 

 

 

 

 

SidDogg

[Caesar 305]

FM Hard, but to make it more even, I do fly with fuel consumption at Normal (AI doesn't ever run outta gas, so I don't burn mine as quick) and blackout on Normal (AI also doesn't suffer g-LOC or blackout, so I don't blackout as quick).

[+EricJ 3,937]

I do fly Normal and quite honestly don't feel any less of a pilot than anybody else here.

[Caesar 305]

Well, doesn't "Normal" better showcase the modern FM's than "Hard" anyhow? I thought I recalled hearing that.

 

EDIT: I use "Hard" because I'm usually not flying the new, super-modern hardware (and normally the Turkey, which I feel I can throw around better on "Hard")

Edited March 11, 2011 by Caesar