F4 Phantom question

[Wodin 0]

Just wondered if anyone knew why the F4 didn't have internal guns? Seems odd for them to have been left out when they where designing that plane...

[Caesar 305]

The prevailing thought at the time was that missiles would finish any fight well before planes would see each other. Why install a gun when you have missiles to kill someone 15 miles away? Of course, Vietnam changed all that with the WVR ROE that nullified the range advantages, combined with the fact that the missiles of the time turned out to be horrendously unreliable. Lesson learned: fighters need guns! F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, and even the new F-22 all were designed with guns.

[+daddyairplanes 10,253]

of course history buffs, in 1954 the original spec for what would become the F-4B Phantom 2, called the AH1 called for a quartet of guns similar to the F-100. then as Ceasar said the thinking of the time said guns were obsolete and the specs got changed.

[+Soulfreak 6,524]

F-4E, F-4EJ & F-4F have an internal Gun...

Edited March 1, 2011 by Soulfreak

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

Not all modern jets are designed with internal guns, just take a look at the F-35, not all versions have a gun!

[Wodin 0]

Thanks for the info....so how come the Brits didn't put missile racks on the hunter and I think the Harrier in the game has none either though I'm not sure....

[Wrench 9,857]

because when the Hunter was built there weren't any A-A missiles*. Sidewinders were under development starting around 53-54, and didn't reach operations with the USN until sometime around 57-58ish (have to double check.

 

Research=Knowledge.

 

 

*later model Swiss marks added 'winder capabililty, iirc, in the 70s*

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+daddyairplanes 10,253]

*later model Swiss marks added 'winder capabililty, iirc, in the 70s*

 

wrench

kevin stein

 

several late model hunters had 'winder rails, but those swiss models also had maverick Capabilty. talk about revamping an old warhorse!

[Caesar 305]

Not all modern jets are designed with internal guns, just take a look at the F-35, not all versions have a gun!

 

Not internally, no, but they do have a specially designed gun pod for the B and C, while the A's gun is internal. Think it has to do with the lift fan assembly in the B; but I don't know why the C's gun isn't internal - suffice to say they've all been designed with the compatibility to carry a gun.

[Slartibartfast 153]

 

several late model hunters had 'winder rails, but those swiss models also had maverick Capabilty. talk about revamping an old warhorse!

Well if it works why not... and they where being used for ground attack normally... and 4 30mm Aden's will generally make a mess of most things...

[Wodin 0]

@Wrench...I am researching...by asking questions on here;)

 

Thanks again....

[MigBuster 2,884]

of course history buffs, in 1954 the original spec for what would become the F-4B Phantom 2, called the AH1 called for a quartet of guns similar to the F-100. then as Ceasar said the thinking of the time said guns were obsolete and the specs got changed.

 

You also see it written sometimes that Guns were also left off interceptors because they didnt think the pilots would want to get so close to bombers with nuclear arms - whether that was really in their thinking - not sure .

[MigBuster 2,884]

@Wrench...I am researching...by asking questions on here;)

 

Thanks again....

 

Nothing wrong in encouraging you to look for credible sources of information though. Even a forum with knowledgeable people can sometimes provide wrong answers because they couldn't be bothered to check.

 

and when I say credible - that does not include the Media!

[PraetorH 166]

F-4E, F-4EJ & F-4F have an internal Gun...

 

... which is pretty much the same aircraft, downgraded more (F-4F) or less (F-4EJ). Of course you got a point that the USAF added a gun due to Vietnam experiences, while most costumers also opted for a gun.

 

Interestingly naval Phantoms still not not include a gun, even in the newest versions, but I do not know why. Can anyone tell me, please?

[Wrench 9,857]

bring-aboard weight issues, and saftey with the mountings

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+daddyairplanes 10,253]

think he meant the E style Phantoms Wrench. i believe it more to do with commonality (N's were revamped B's while S's are revamped J's) and institutional pride than mountings (not sure on wieght). the testbed for the gun nosed Phantom was RF-4C 62-1220 and the RF-4B was a RF-4C nose mated to F-4B airframe. the Marines had deployed RF-4Bs off of carriers. final part of my arguement is that max takeoff weight and "combat" wieght are around 1000 lbs more for the E than the S. could be taken care of by restricting use of the centerline station. just sayin........

[Wodin 0]

My WW1 and WW2 knowledge is very good indeed...post WW2 not that good...read a few books on Vietnam and Korea but not with regards to the air war.

[PraetorH 166]

Both your answers are interesting, Wrench and DA!