P4 AI suggestion / request

[Hellshade 110]

There's a change to the AI that I think would bring even more excitement to the game. Let me know what you guys think.

 

Actually, two changes.

 

1st - That the AI become more aggressive towards enemy aircraft more often. In other words, if I'm alone against 6 EA, at least 3 to 4 of them would be actively attempting to shoot me down and flying aggressively after me. Not just 1 or 2 with the rest "flying cover" until they see their wingman killed. This would force me to fly much more defensively, checking my 6 more often. Giving me less time to line up a foe because one of his wingman is likely lining up on me even as I am getting ready to shoot. It would make fighting off multiple attackers a far more harrowing experience. Survival under those circumstances was very low, I am sure. Possible, but unlikely. I would definately have to choose my fights more carefully too.

 

2nd - That my planes ability to take damage without severe loss of controls after just a few short hits was strengthened. If that is not possible then perhaps just lowering the gun accuracy a bit more though that affects the player too. I think the first option would be better if it's even possible.

 

Sometimes when I fly against multiple aircraft, I think "they should be more aggressive, considering how outnumbered they know I am." The current OFF AI is definately some of the best I've seen in a WWI flight sim, however since the Devs are already looking to improve it in P4, it would be even better if being surrounded was more about being attacked by several planes at once than by 1 or 2 planes at a time while the rest "waited their turn". For what it's worth, EVERY flight sim I have seems to work this way at the moment. Several planes fly around while one or two carry the fight to the player. IF OBD could make this change, it would definately be ground breaking and, quite probably, the fact that it hasn't been done this way by anyone may mean it's either very difficult to do or too difficult to do and still maintain a fair chance of survival by the player.

 

It's just an idea. What do you guys think, if it can even be done?

 

Hellshade

Edited March 17, 2011 by Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Well, my opinion and impression is, that the AI is already quitey aggressive.

I find it almost impossible to fly Creaghorn-style, and not to get into a fight almost every sortie.

And that they never attack all at once, seems historically correct to me - you wouldn't create

a furball, if it's not necessary, but rather let two scouts do the job against a single one.

 

About your second point: maybe the hit areas could be more defined, so that engine hits

have to be really concentrated on the engine area, and rudder only on the rudder angles

and wires. The rudder, wings and elevators should be possible to shoot through the mere

fabric, without doing much damage to the control.

Also, large areas of the fuselage could be shot through - depending on the angle of course.

Hit from behind, the fuselage is merely a small oval, and the rounds would hit the pilot,

tank or engine.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Olham

[Lewie 7]

Sounds like Hellshade wants an 'Albert Ball' setting in configuration,... ( I keed.....)

[Dej 17]

I think much may depend on the Jasta or Squadron one is taking on. I certainly have had 'six on my six' in the past, granted I was running for home all on me Jack Jones but none of these buggers were holding off. IIRC one of 'em was Joachim von Betraub, so if the others were Jasta 30 too, maybe there's a difference when they've an ace with them, or are an elite unit.

 

I'm not sure about the damage modelling question, because sometimes I can take a quite lot of damage and nurse the kite home, which is an aspect of the sim I really enjoy and sometimes it seems like a single bullet ruins my day. I'm only an armchair pilot and couldn't say whether the responsiveness or otherwise of the controls is an accurate reflection of damage taken or not. Sometime it seems excessive but really I'm speaking in ignorance.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Dej

[Creaghorn 10]

There's a change to the AI that I think would bring even more excitement to the game. Let me know what you guys think.

 

Actually, two changes.

 

1st - That the AI become more aggressive towards enemy aircraft more often. In other words, if I'm alone against 6 EA, at least 3 to 4 of them would be actively attempting to shoot me down and flying aggressively after me. Not just 1 or 2 with the rest "flying cover" until they see their wingman killed. This would force me to fly much more defensively, checking my 6 more often. Giving me less time to line up a foe because one of his wingman is likely lining up on me even as I am getting ready to shoot. It would make fighting off multiple attackers a far more harrowing experience. Survival under those circumstances was very low, I am sure. Possible, but unlikely. I would definately have to choose my fights more carefully too.

 

2nd - That my planes ability to take damage without severe loss of controls after just a few short hits was strengthened. If that is not possible then perhaps just lowering the gun accuracy a bit more though that affects the player too. I think the first option would be better if it's even possible.

 

Sometimes when I fly against multiple aircraft, I think "they should be more aggressive, considering how outnumbered they know I am." The current OFF AI is definately some of the best I've seen in a WWI flight sim, however since the Devs are already looking to improve it in P4, it would be even better if being surrounded was more about being attacked by several planes at once than by 1 or 2 planes at a time while the rest "waited their turn". For what it's worth, EVERY flight sim I have seems to work this way at the moment. Several planes fly around while one or two carry the fight to the player. IF OBD could make this change, it would definately be ground breaking and, quite probably, the fact that it hasn't been done this way by anyone may mean it's either very difficult to do or too difficult to do and still maintain a fair chance of survival by the player.

 

It's just an idea. What do you guys think, if it can even be done?

 

Hellshade

 

to 1st, i think that's rather a quick mission behaviour than in campaign. although in real it's realistic and poured into rookies heads permanently, that only one or two should attack a single plane, to avoid the risk of collision, and the others are behind to cover or take over if the attacker has to turn away due stoppage or loss of momentum etc. also i think it depends of the quality of AI. not only if elite or good etc., but also if they are rookie AI pilots in a squadron.

 

to 2nd IMO damage to fuselage and wings shouldn't have a negative effect at all to the moment some wingtip breaks or canvas rips off. and then the effect should be very noticable.

currently is for both, AI and yourself like this. you get hit somewhere in the wing or something and your controls are cut by about a half. then you get some more hits because it's tougher to be evasive and your or the AI AC gets almost unflyable and then you or the AI are easy meat. that's how kills in BHAH are mostly done. slowing the AC down and then making the kill.

IMO it should be rather like this. if you get hit into the wings or fuselage, there control should stay as good as before until the moment some hit percentage is reached, and then the wingtip or part of the wing or whatever should fall off and cause an immediate and severe loss of control. so not a 100% control...getting hit 70% control...getting hit 30% control thing, but a 100% control...getting hit 100% control...getting hit 100% control...getting hit, something brakes visually...10-20% control, depending of what brakes. of course if flyability stays at 100%, it doesn't mean the structure isn't weakened. so if you get hit several times, it might happen that you should on purpose fly more cautious, because on a sharp turn or dive, you might suddenly lose a wing or something.

so the only hits which should cause immediate effect are meat or metal, all other hitboxes should have no, or hardly effect to flyability until something serious brakes. some small holes in canvas shouldn't have such an impact as it is now. and hitting cables and stuff is practically impossible. cables break when the wingpart it's holding breaks, not because a bullet is cutting the cable. that's highly unprobable.

there are many examples of pilots, regurlarly returning from a sortie with dozens of hits. albert ball is a prominent example. but i doubt the many holes had such a negative effect on his flyability. there is a reason why one had to aim for meat or metal, because hitting anything else had almost no effect at all. no shooting him slow and then finishing him up.

IMO this DM should be for AI and yourself. that would reduce kills, making killing tougher, would be tougher for AI to kill you.

if HPW would create such a DM i would gladly test it and try out.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Creaghorn

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

On the second point, Hellshade, this can probably be done. Actually, my current 2.5 DM already has some of these features. Furthermore, my latest DM (not released yet) has made the cables even more resistant than in 2.5.

 

The other stuff, such as the wings and fuselage as Creaghorn suggested, can also be tweaked. My understanding of the CFS3 DM is that most, if not all, aircraft components lose effectiveness on a proportional basis (Caution: I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but I think it is). For example, if a component has 100 hit points, than the loss of 10 hit points means that the component is now only 90% effective. Furthermore, certain events (wingbreaks, fires, fuelleaks) can be triggered once a certain percentage of hit points have been used up.

 

Therefore, it should be possible to make certain components, such as wings, maintain their effectiveness longer even after hit while still allowing for catastrophic failures by increasing the hit points but decreasing the percentages for certain failures.

 

As an example, assume an engine has 100 hit points but gets a fuel leak at 50% damage, and a small fire at 80% damage. Currently, a loss of 20 hit points on such an engine causes the engine to run at approximately 80% effectiveness. By doubling the hit points to 200, 20 points of damage would now only cause 10% loss of effectiveness. If you reduce the fuel leak from 50% to 30% and the fire from 80% to 50% at the same time, the engine would then get a leak at around 60 points of damage and catch fire around 100 points of damage. These are just examples, of course, the real trick is getting the balance just right. However, it is certainly doable.

 

 

[Hellshade 110]

so the only hits which should cause immediate effect are meat or metal, all other hitboxes should have no, or hardly effect to flyability until something serious brakes. some small holes in canvas shouldn't have such an impact as it is now. and hitting cables and stuff is practically impossible. cables break when the wingpart it's holding breaks, not because a bullet is cutting the cable. that's highly unprobable.

there are many examples of pilots, regurlarly returning from a sortie with dozens of hits. albert ball is a prominent example. but i doubt the many holes had such a negative effect on his flyability. there is a reason why one had to aim for meat or metal, because hitting anything else had almost no effect at all. no shooting him slow and then finishing him up.

IMO this DM should be for AI and yourself. that would reduce kills, making killing tougher, would be tougher for AI to kill you.

 

if HPW would create such a DM i would gladly test it and try out.

 

I would agree with that completely. It would reduce the number of kills players get significantly too.

 

Of course, I can see where others who already have a low % hit rate are going to not want such a DM because they will likely end up shooting down nobody far too often. If most people have a hit % of 15 - 20%, then one must imagine that many of those 100 to 200 rounds that did hit an enemy plane didn't hit meat or metal. I believe Polovoski once told me they tried something like this and everyone felt like they were playing against "flying tanks" because no amount of damage seemed to bring them down. To me, this might actually seem more historically accurate though because pilots in the real war were not coming home with kills on every mission, let alone flights like Olhams 5 triplane kills or my own multi-kill ventures. I think most pilots did come home "empty handed" from most missions or perhaps with one kill. The number of confirmed kills would of course be even fewer. I would say that one benefit that everyone could appreciate out of that situation is that making Ace would indeed be a significant achievement worth bragging about. Also, medals earned would have a greater feeling of accomplishment.

 

You are right that player pilots would live longer and it would reduce the kill count. I think for the majority of players though it might make the sim too frustrating. God bless OBD for having tried and supported multiple DMs in the past, however that got understandably too difficult to continue to support. If HPW were to create such a DM I would love to fly it too. Especially for the thrill of having my plane hit but not immediately cut my ability to manuever by 30 to 70% from a single bullet.

 

On the other hand, I personally would still prefer the AI to be more aggressive especially when there are multiple planes against one. I must have a little Werner Voss in me, where I love the thrill of the fight when surrounded.

 

Hellshade

[Creaghorn 10]

I would agree with that completely. It would reduce the number of kills players get significantly too.

 

Of course, I can see where others who already have a low % hit rate are going to not want such a DM because they will likely end up shooting down nobody far too often. If most people have a hit % of 15 - 20%, then one must imagine that many of those 100 to 200 rounds that did hit an enemy plane didn't hit meat or metal. I believe Polovoski once told me they tried something like this and everyone felt like they were playing against "flying tanks" because no amount of damage seemed to bring them down. To me, this might actually seem more historically accurate though because pilots in the real war were not coming home with kills on every mission, let alone flights like Olhams 5 triplane kills or my own multi-kill ventures. I think most pilots did come home "empty handed" from most missions or perhaps with one kill. The number of confirmed kills would of course be even fewer. I would say that one benefit that everyone could appreciate out of that situation is that making Ace would indeed be a significant achievement worth bragging about. Also, medals earned would have a greater feeling of accomplishment.

 

You are right that player pilots would live longer and it would reduce the kill count. I think for the majority of players though it might make the sim too frustrating. God bless OBD for having tried and supported multiple DMs in the past, however that got understandably too difficult to continue to support. If HPW were to create such a DM I would love to fly it too. Especially for the thrill of having my plane hit but not immediately cut my ability to manuever by 30 to 70% from a single bullet.

 

On the other hand, I personally would still prefer the AI to be more aggressive especially when there are multiple planes against one. I must have a little Werner Voss in me, where I love the thrill of the fight when surrounded.

 

Hellshade

 

that's why it is a good idea HPW can create such a DM so it will be optional who will use it. or if it would be the official DM and one has too few kills in his opinion (the holy grail for me, but for sure not for all) one can still raise the bullet impact power in workshop.

not every pilot died. many of them survived the war. but 90% of the survivors did not end the war with ace status. why is it like that? certainly not because they have been yellow. they were often very good stick and rudder pilots, with hundreds of flying hours, but in all those months or years of combat they managed to get down 3 kills, if any. so there must be a reason for that. why didn't the aces have 400 kills? why did they have good months and sometimes half a year between two kills, although flying sorties every day? because it requires, as julius buckler wrote:

-guts

-good aiming

-and a good portion of luck

 

there were many pilots who often came back with ton of holes, but without being harmed. at least for a while. they even had nicknames because beeing such bullet catchers.

also there is everywhere mentioned that in rookie stages, be it mccudden, richthofen, rickenbacker etc., they said they have seen the enemy, shot at him, were sure they hit him often but wondered why the fellow does not fall down. why the enemy is not even impressed by all those bullets. some even didn't notice it at all beeing under attack. the reason is that after the 2nd or 3rd kill they realized slowly the know how. to get really close, aim at meat or metal and then with some luck the fellow goes down.

aiming well is the keyword in getting kills. currently, even with all those mods, it's enough to spray bullets around, so you slow down the enemy and then you cache him when he has lost enoguh ability to evade, and vice versa.

it should be that if you spray your bullets around towards the enemy, chances are arm you will ever get a kill. just listen to the interviews in the BHAH credits. if you want to have a kill, then hit the pilot or the engine or petroltank. or hit one wing or the elevators with a long enough salves until it falls off or the canvas is completely torn apart.

currently, mostly one gets shot down because he gets crippled by bullets, loses ability to control his AC, tries to crashland and than flies into a tree or rams himself into the ground. the reason why one gets shot down or why often AI crashes is the lack to control the AC.

almost every original claimreport i have read so far had the same reasons of enemies crashed.

AC goes down in flames

out of control, probably because of wounded or killed pilot,

damaged engine or petroltank,

because the AC has catastrophic structual failures, losing wings etc.

 

i have never read a real claimreport of somebody crashing because the controls were affected too much. it always had a reason as listed above.

 

so if HPW has time to create, i would gladly like to try out such a hardcore, but IMO realistic DM where you really really have to hit meat or metal if you want to have the small chance to get a kill, or if something else then hitting with many many bullets into the same damagebox. i would go so far to make the cables completely indestructible because i doubt bullets would ever snap off cables. it's not about making them tanks. it's about hitting the right spots. therefore having to fight for the kill and get really really close. where it means more to down a two seater than a scout, as it was in real, because you had to get really close, into the gunners fire sometimes, and hit the right spots, otherwise you'll get nothing.

let's get to the point where having 5 kills is really ace status and really means something. where having enough kills to get the PLM is really hard work over virtual months or years, as it was in real. where you can be proud to say, i have survived 12 months of combat and i have 10 kills. not i have 5 days and have 20 kills.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Creaghorn

[+Polovski 428]

The first DM we did was tough like this in the early Phase 1, helped keep kills realistic, and less effects were seen given nothing was wrong most of the time. Most people seemed to prefer soem hollywood and more effects so we made it less tough slightly in P2. People didn't like it was too easy so in P3 we ended up with something in between, and then an extra tough DM. IN the end we merged into a semi tough one lol. There are so many variables - if all is perfect and just like real life damage, most people would still get too many kills as we have many 1000's of hours extra flying mostly.

 

Or you make the NUMBERS correct then people who are not so good say it's too tough or get bored because no flames and booms ;). So we made it best we can (fairly tough) and gave options to lessen it or tweak gunnery etc.

 

Harder would go back to P1 method full circle but maybe that's an option...

[Creaghorn 10]

The first DM we did was tough like this in the early Phase 1, helped keep kills realistic, and less effects were seen given nothing was wrong most of the time. Most people seemed to prefer soem hollywood and more effects so we made it less tough slightly in P2. People didn't like it was too easy so in P3 we ended up with something in between, and then an extra tough DM. IN the end we merged into a semi tough one lol. There are so many variables - if all is perfect and just like real life damage, most people would still get too many kills as we have many 1000's of hours extra flying mostly.

 

Or you make the NUMBERS correct then people who are not so good say it's too tough or get bored because no flames and booms ;). So we made it best we can (fairly tough) and gave options to lessen it or tweak gunnery etc.

 

Harder would go back to P1 method full circle but maybe that's an option...

 

maybe the solution would be to go back to p1 method, and there is still the option to raise the bullet strength. so normal, you have to hit meat or metal to get an effect or hit the wings etc. with lot of bullets to get a kill. the explosions, ripped off wings etc. would still occure. however, they are not gone, you just have to hit the right spots to see them. and for those who want it quicker and easier, raise the bullet strength and the result would come sooner, although the same DM.

 

of the three most important things julius buckler and others mentioned we can't emulate guts, because you don't risk your real life. but the need for good aiming and needing some luck to get a kill is something we can do IMO.

[Olham 164]

Ditto to that.

There are enough settings in "Workshops", which would allow to make it easier.

[Hellshade 110]

let's get to the point where having 5 kills is really ace status and really means something. where having enough kills to get the PLM is really hard work over virtual months or years, as it was in real. where you can be proud to say, i have survived 12 months of combat and i have 10 kills. not i have 5 days and have 20 kills.

 

That would be yet another stand out aspect of the sim, to be sure. Right now, the medals come so quickly and easily that for the most part, nobody notices them. Indeed, if your pilot doesn't have all of his medal boxes fulfilled by the end of 5 or 10 missions, it's odd. Considering how much work is going into revamping the medal system for P4, both graphically and from a historical award perspective, it would be a shame to just give them away as if they have no meaning.

 

I worry about it being too tough for the majority of players but Creaghorn has a valid point that you can easily switch your guns to Strongest to help overcome the difficulty in shooting down enemy planes.

 

God bless OBD for being so willing to at least actively listen to their userbase and consider the ideas brought up. I know in the end they will make the best choices, as always.

 

 

Hellshade

[Creaghorn 10]

to be honest, for most people campaigns or careers are little more than QC with random sorties. because of the many kills and the quickly frank lukish getting killed, many doesn't experience how it is to have a real campaign. to experience the progresses of war, the news, the moving frontlines, to learn your squadron mates by name and almost really mourn them if they die.

mostly it's jumping into bloody april, having 3 flight hours with 5 kills, die, making new career in spring 1916,having 8 flight hours with 15 kills, die, jumping into 1918 etc. IMO that's no real campaign.

 

now imagine it's very tough to get a kill, and it's also tough for AI to kill you. now imagine you start a career in jasta 2 in spring 1916. you fly together with imelmann, richthofen, boelcke etc. you experience how after two weeks you still have no kill, but imelmann has his first. you land your completely bullet riddled AC and you are lucky to live. after 4 weeks you finally have your first kill. you'll celebrate it. then you experience the death of boelcke. some days later (when already having about 50 flight hours) you make your second kill. in 1917 you experience what's going on on the frontlines. you experience that the enemy is bringing new types of AC. and so it goes until you get shot down, or become an ace or whatever. that's a real campaign. that's what makes fun, what makes you really apreciate an iron cross, let alone some higher medal. that makes you apreciate the campaign. you want to know what will happen next. will the russians surrender as the rumors say? will nivelle have success to break through the lines?

 

if it's tough to shoot down, and to get shot down, you'll often land crippled, but alive, as long as you don't get wounded or killed or have some catastrophic structual failure. you then really will have the chance to experience a campaign.

and if it would be like that, and in p4 perhaps even smart AI who regroup and fly away again, than it will be the ultimate realistic campaign. where you can die at your first sortie, but also have the chance with some luck to live a year or more

 

 

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Not to make this thread about me, but did anyone have any thoughts on my post, above? Are my suggestions the direction you think you would like to go, or do we have some other suggestions for the DM?

 

Also, I am close to releasing a mod to increase the bullet spread a bit. At the hardest level, it does become more dificult for me to shoot down more than one or two opponents per sortie. Furthermore, I can make it even harder if desired--but that begins to cause significant problems for the AI, making it a little too tough for the AI to shoot you down.

[Creaghorn 10]

Not to make this thread about me, but did anyone have any thoughts on my post, above? Are my suggestions the direction you think you would like to go, or do we have some other suggestions for the DM?

 

Also, I am close to releasing a mod to increase the bullet spread a bit. At the hardest level, it does become more dificult for me to shoot down more than one or two opponents per sortie. Furthermore, I can make it even harder if desired--but that begins to cause significant problems for the AI, making it a little too tough for the AI to shoot you down.

 

i think that's the way to go. if you hit engine, petroltank or pilot, there should be immediate effect, if canvas or wood gets hit by you or you get hit, there should be hardly to none negative effect to controls until a certain level is reached and then the negative effect should occure suddenly from 100% to whatever. both for AI and you. don't get me wrong. if you or AI hits the pilot with the first pass, then you or the enemy should be dead immediately or at least get wounded.

 

please make it even harder than what you suggest so you will have to really aim well and have luck, and so also AI has to have troubles to shoot you or anybody down as long meat or metal are not hit. that would be great with less casualties, less kills for both, AI and you.

[+Polovski 428]

A lot of fiddling to make a DM that is 5%-10% harder just not worth it - most of the time things you see would be placebo. Been there many times. You need to make bigger jumps,50% etc. For the moment easiest thing is to just whack up the bullet spread in Workshop makes sure you get close and aim for something useful. The main problem is everyone wants smething completely different. You lot are hardcore, but many others aren't or who want more booms and fire yet not too many kills ;). Where it is is good for most. We had several polls over the years and got what we got.

 

We'd have to make another optional DM as we had before - maybe we can build it in using the backup tool, but we'll have to see.

[Hellshade 110]

On the second point, Hellshade, this can probably be done. Actually, my current 2.5 DM already has some of these features. Furthermore, my latest DM (not released yet) has made the cables even more resistant than in 2.5.

 

The other stuff, such as the wings and fuselage as Creaghorn suggested, can also be tweaked. My understanding of the CFS3 DM is that most, if not all, aircraft components lose effectiveness on a proportional basis (Caution: I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but I think it is). For example, if a component has 100 hit points, than the loss of 10 hit points means that the component is now only 90% effective. Furthermore, certain events (wingbreaks, fires, fuelleaks) can be triggered once a certain percentage of hit points have been used up.

 

Therefore, it should be possible to make certain components, such as wings, maintain their effectiveness longer even after hit while still allowing for catastrophic failures by increasing the hit points but decreasing the percentages for certain failures.

 

As an example, assume an engine has 100 hit points but gets a fuel leak at 50% damage, and a small fire at 80% damage. Currently, a loss of 20 hit points on such an engine causes the engine to run at approximately 80% effectiveness. By doubling the hit points to 200, 20 points of damage would now only cause 10% loss of effectiveness. If you reduce the fuel leak from 50% to 30% and the fire from 80% to 50% at the same time, the engine would then get a leak at around 60 points of damage and catch fire around 100 points of damage. These are just examples, of course, the real trick is getting the balance just right. However, it is certainly doable.

 

 

 

If you can do all that HPW - including making cables very, very hard to damage or break - I would be thrilled. More focus on the pilot, the fuel tank and the engine would be fantastic. Wings can be shot off, but only after a very significant amount of damage to them. After all, most of the time it's just ripping a tiny hole in the fabric so there shouldn't be much of a change to the FM. The longer the AI and myself can fly and fight effectively, the more intense the battles will become because it won't just be - 1. damage the EA. 2. Now that they can't manuever, shoot them like fish in a barrel. I'd like to come home with my guns empty, my plane full of holes and perhaps, if I'm lucky and good, a kill claim to file.

 

Hellshade

[Creaghorn 10]

A lot of fiddling to make a DM that is 5%-10% harder just not worth it - most of the time things you see would be placebo. Been there many times. You need to make bigger jumps,50% etc. For the moment easiest thing is to just whack up the bullet spread in Workshop makes sure you get close and aim for something useful.

 

 

that's what i mean. thanks pol. please make a hughe jump HPW

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Gulp! Methinks I will need a lot of virtual beer! :drinks: Gulp!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Summary of "hard-core" DM proposal:

 

Engines: Little or no loss of power from bullet hits. Fuel leaks, oil leaks, fires, acceptable.

Main wings: Little loss of control from bullet hits until many, many hits--then complete failure.

Cables: Indestructable or very low probability of hits? (Either or both can be done)

Rudders, elevators, ailerons: Same as main wings?

Reservoirs and tanks: increase hit points, lower threshold for leaks?

 

Keep in mind that I don't have the skills to alter the size or position of the damage boxes. I am not graphically inclined and would suck at GMax. Anyone willing to volunteer?

[Olham 164]

I am with you for a "hardcore" DM, Creaghorn and HPW - I won't learn it any other way.

 

As for engines: don't know how big the hit boxes are, but there should be a rest of "engine so damaged, it fails"

It only need to be very small, to decrease the chance.

 

Wings: sounds right

 

Cables: my choice would be "very low probability of hits"

 

Rudder, elevator and aileron: sounds right

 

Tank: tank hits did occur - even MvR was forced down by one. Maybe "increase hit points"

Edited March 18, 2011 by Olham

[Creaghorn 10]

Summary of "hard-core" DM proposal:

 

Engines: Little or no loss of power from bullet hits. Fuel leaks, oil leaks, fires, acceptable.

Main wings: Little loss of control from bullet hits until many, many hits--then complete failure.

Cables: Indestructable or very low probability of hits? (Either or both can be done)

Rudders, elevators, ailerons: Same as main wings?

Reservoirs and tanks: increase hit points, lower threshold for leaks?

 

Keep in mind that I don't have the skills to alter the size or position of the damage boxes. I am not graphically inclined and would suck at GMax. Anyone willing to volunteer?

 

i would say if the engine gets hit, then there should be definitely most of the time loss of power. the engine is something we are aiming for when shooting and something you definitely do not want to get hit.

main wings: spot on

cables: spot on

rudders: spot on

tanks: ok as it is. something we are aiming for when shooting. maybe increasing the chance for fire when having a petrolleak, because hot petrol can quickly ignite when it sprays onto a glowing hot engine.

one more thing is pilot. i don't know if there is more than one hitbox for the pilot. but a headshot should be immediate death for myself or AI, and the body should have the chance to either get wounded or also be immediate death. maybe 50/50 so pilot rather reducing hitpoints.

 

thing is that AI and yourself have to hit something vital to shoot something down and to have an effect. petroltank, engine or pilot. also there must be a chance for a quick kill. if i aim good and hit e.g the pilot, the fight is over. so hard DM does not mean that the engine or pilot have to be hit 100 times to get an effect. it's about aiming for the important parts. you can get a kill or get killed with 5 bullets when hitting immediately, or you can waste 1000 rounds for nothing when just hitting canvas and wood.

[Hellshade 110]

i would say if the engine gets hit, then there should be definitely most of the time loss of power. the engine is something we are aiming for when shooting and something you definitely do not want to get hit.

main wings: spot on

cables: spot on

rudders: spot on

tanks: ok as it is. something we are aiming for when shooting. maybe increasing the chance for fire when having a petrolleak, because hot petrol can quickly ignite when it sprays onto a glowing hot engine.

one more thing is pilot. i don't know if there is more than one hitbox for the pilot. but a headshot should be immediate death for myself or AI, and the body should have the chance to either get wounded or also be immediate death. maybe 50/50 so pilot rather reducing hitpoints.

 

thing is that AI and yourself have to hit something vital to shoot something down and to have an effect. petroltank, engine or pilot. also there must be a chance for a quick kill. if i aim good and hit e.g the pilot, the fight is over. so hard DM does not mean that the engine or pilot have to be hit 100 times to get an effect. it's about aiming for the important parts. you can get a kill or get killed with 5 bullets when hitting immediately, or you can waste 1000 rounds for nothing when just hitting canvas and wood.

 

I wonder how many other Pilots would enjoy a DM like this. Perhaps there should be a Poll to gauge the general interest level.

 

Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Well, as for most realistic conditions, I think Creaghorn is quite right.

If you fear, that it would become too tough, Hellshade - well, it is obviously not tough enough

yet; we make lots of kills in short time, which is totally unrealistic.

I don't say, OFF is easy to survive in realistc settings now - but that has other reasons.

For example, that the AI won't make an orderly retreat from a fight, but fights on to the last round;

or it's because we meet more enemy flights than the RL pilots did.

 

But as for the hits on an aircraft, I think Creaghorn is pretty much spot on.

MvR had 80 victories, Udet had 60 - but the way we are doing in OFF, we can achieve that in

only one month of flying. That is just too far away from the real air combat of that time.

 

Making the hit spots more realistic would be one good step on the way to more realism IMHO.

An even more evasive AI would be another (some scouts do already perform phantastic evasive

manoeuvres, but the two-seaters (except Roland C.II and Brisfit) don't do any.

 

And those who don't want it so hard, can still set up "Workshop" for easier results.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Olham

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

The one problem area is pilots. When I altered the pilot hit points, it screwed up the way the game determined if a pilot was dead or injured, resulting in "undead" pilots. In order to adjust the frequency of getting hits on the pilot, I think we are looking at having to adjust the size or shape of the pilot damage box. Unfortunately, that is beyond my level of incompetence and will probably require the intervention of one of the devs.