Engine damage questions

[Olham 164]

No, in the Albatros you hear that the engine is damaged.

You get a clunky sound, or even worse, like gravel in the gears - depending on the amount of damage.

Sometimes, the engine gets running slower and slower (with no leaking tank), until it cuts out completely.

 

But yes, after receiving hits, I mostly check for fuel leakage.

The real life pilots would have smelled it, but I need to use that aid.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Hmmm...well perhaps the engine and tank are somehow tied together in a way not related to the fuel loss.

 

Or perhaps the is a separate problem with the Alb engine?

 

Or maybe your just unlucky Olham! Of course I share that bad luck since the bulk of my campaign flying this year had been in a Alb/D III with Jasta 11.

 

Whatever it may be I am satisfied there is some kind of issue which is beyond my expertise to even guess at! I'll leave it to the professionals.

 

Think I will revert to the Stock DM for now.

 

My thanks to HPW though! I've used your DM since it came out and my MODS folder is packed with all your other stuff so please continue the great work. S!

Edited September 29, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[+epower 23]

Longtime Lurker, first-time poster, at least on this second incarnation of the forum... First off, a big salute and thank you to a remarkable community, and to all those who've spent countless hours producing mods and otherwise improving the OFF experience.

 

Been flying British lately and I've noticed a related but different phenomenon with regard to Alb DII, DIII and the Halb DII which I had not understood until DukeIronHand posted his fuel tank observations. Concentrated hits to the cockpit and engine produce a fire which burns for some seconds then goes out. I'm assuming this is the fuel tank contents burning off. I've noticed this both in QC and campaign. It seems to me that once a fire of that magnitude gets started on a canvas and dope covered craft that the conflagration would be unstoppable, as it is with the stock damage model. Interestingly, I've noticed in HPW Ultimate DM 1.1 that while the fire always goes out (damn those boche onboard fire-contol systems) sometimes the pilot continues flying, sometimes the pilot dies shortly thereafter, as evidenced by the black aircraft icon on the TAC.

 

I wonder if the pilot is too fire and bullet resistant in HPW DM 1.1. If I understand things correctly, fuel tanks are usually located between the pilot and the engine. It is possible that deflection shooting from behind could hit the engine and gas tanks but not fall far enough aft to strike the pilot. Not sure how the visible effects relate to damage but I would think that a fuel tank fire should spread and consume the aircraft and hapless pilot.

 

I'm very happy to do additional testing.

 

Current set up:

 

(Installed via JGSME)

HPW Ultimate DM 1.1

HPW_GermanFM_Pack_1.0

HPW_AlliedFMPack_1.0

 

(Installed directly)

Elephants tracers

Creaghorns tracer effects (no damage debris)

Creaghorns Soundtweak II + Patch

 

<S>

 

epower

[Olham 164]

Welcome to OFF and the forum community, epower!

If you send me a PM with your hometown and country, I'llgladly add you to our "OFF Pilots Maps".

Edited September 29, 2011 by Olham

[Shiloh 12]

A most-hearty welcome to these forums epower.

 

New guy buys the rounds so a virtual Warsteiner if you please.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Been flying British lately and I've noticed a related but different phenomenon with regard to Alb DII, DIII and the Halb DII which I had not understood until DukeIronHand posted his fuel tank observations. Concentrated hits to the cockpit and engine produce a fire which burns for some seconds then goes out.

 

Welcome epower!

 

Yes I saw the phenomena you mention above several times with the Pfalz/DIII and Fok/Dr1 and DVII - the only aircraft I tested at length besides the Alb DIII.

 

Ironically I never saw this with the Alb/DIII because it didn't last long enough under enemy gunfire but I saw it multiple times with the first three aircraft I mention.

Big flame from the engine area that lasts, as you say, for several seconds then goes out with no apparent fuel loss or loss of engine power.

As I probably fly the Alb/DIII more than any other aircraft I never saw this in a campaign flight though I try to avoid getting hit!

 

I am afraid this is may be HPW thing also as I never saw it with the Stock DM.

 

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited September 29, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[Olham 164]

New guy buys the rounds so a virtual Warsteiner if you please.

Hey, you like that beer too?

Same for me, epower - make it a large one; you're added to the map.

[+epower 23]

Barkeep! A round of beers for one and all.

 

 

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I'm reading your posts and observations with interest and will comment later today as time permits.

 

I will say now that I am aware of the little fire that goes out. I deliberately chose a small fire over a large fire because the effect on the airplane is the same--about 50% of the time the aircraft will go out of control and crash, and 50% of the time it will keep on flying in a straight line, slowly losing altitude. It made more sense to me for a plane to keep flying with a small fire rather than to keep flying under a blazing inferno, which you sometimes see under the stock OBD game. Unfortunately, the CFS3 game engine does not seem to recognize that fuel tank fires and explosions can totally disable or destroy the pilot or aircraft, and I cannot seem to trigger fuel tank fires and explosions that damage other parts of the aircraft, such as the wings, which would send the aircraft plunging into the ground. In essence, we are left with a choice between some fires and occasionally odd behavior, or no fires at all.

 

(I think the main reason for this is that most fuel tanks in WWI planes are in the fuselage, while most fuel tanks in WWII planes are in the wings, so a fire followed by an explosion and loss of a wing makes sense in a WWII plane but not in a WWI plane).

 

Welcome to the forum, epower, and thank you for your willingness to help test the DM.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Well Herr Olham it would appear your long held suspicions are exactly right - at least to me.

 

In doing my "tests" (flying straight and level on autopilot) vs 3 Sop/Cams I used the first HPW DM and the HPW Ultimate DM.

I have not done stock yet because of the big (to me) news that I wished to come here and report.

 

The Alb DIII, at least for me, very quickly suffers a fuel tank hit, followed by a quick loss of fuel (per the HUD) and associated engine shut down, almost every time.

I have not tried the others in the Alb series yet.

 

I did the Pfalz DIII, Fok/Dr.1 and Fok/DVII and they almost never suffered a fuel tank hit prior to something else destroying them from rear attacks.

 

Did see some short lived flames(?) but no tank hit per the HUD.

 

Does someone else wish to double check this?

 

Edit: Double post + clarification

 

Olham do you use the HPW damage mod(s)?

 

It would appear that the Alb/D III fuel tank "issue" is a HPW DM thing.

Again I did not try the other Alb models.

 

I could not duplicate the apparent problem with the stock DM.

 

As a salute to the stock DM I thought it was cool that when the pilot was wounded bullet holes appeared around the cockpit - this probably occurred with the HPW DM also but I was too busy timing the fuel loss.

Duke,

 

I'm a little perplexed about your troubles with the Alb DIII fuel leak. Fuel leaks are handled exactly the same way in the DIII as they are for the Fokker DVII, Pfalz DIII, and all other in-line engine types. The only difference I can think of is that the "hit box" for the Alb fuel tank might be drawn larger than the hit box for those other planes (the Alb series had a rather large fuel capacity). The size of the hit box on the Alb DIII is exactly the same in my DM as it is in the stock version because I have not altered any of the hit boxes on any of the planes (I don't know how to do that).

 

Also, Olham does not report having the same problem.

 

My guess is that you may have just had a run of bad luck against a very tough opponent in the Sop Camels. Were they aces perhaps or from an elite squadron? Aces seem to have an uncanny ability to concentrate their fire on a very precise area of an opponent's plane. If you fly QC, try setting your opponent's skill to novice or veteran instead of ace and see if you get the same results.

[Creaghorn 10]

also it is a hughe factor what bullet spread is chosen. a second in the line of fire with tight or normal setting is causing much more damage than a second with wide setting.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

No, in the Albatros you hear that the engine is damaged.

You get a clunky sound, or even worse, like gravel in the gears - depending on the amount of damage.

Sometimes, the engine gets running slower and slower (with no leaking tank), until it cuts out completely.

 

But yes, after receiving hits, I mostly check for fuel leakage.

The real life pilots would have smelled it, but I need to use that aid.

 

Welcome epower!

 

Yes I saw the phenomena you mention above several times with the Pfalz/DIII and Fok/Dr1 and DVII - the only aircraft I tested at length besides the Alb DIII.

 

Ironically I never saw this with the Alb/DIII because it didn't last long enough under enemy gunfire but I saw it multiple times with the first three aircraft I mention.

Big flame from the engine area that lasts, as you say, for several seconds then goes out with no apparent fuel loss or loss of engine power.

As I probably fly the Alb/DIII more than any other aircraft I never saw this in a campaign flight though I try to avoid getting hit!

 

I am afraid this is may be HPW thing also as I never saw it with the Stock DM.

 

Edit: Grammar

 

Now, on to the engine.

 

As Olham noted, the engine makes a noisy clunky or gravelly sound when it is hit. This appears to be a hard-coded CFS3 sound effect, because it seems to happen whenever the engine receives ANY damage and regardless of the comparative durability of the engine. Fortunately, it does not seem to cause an immediate loss of power. I can't rule out the possibility that the engine will give out eventually from these minor hits, but it seems to take a long time. Engine power and performance seems to be mainly a function of percentage of hit points consumed. For example, an engine with 100 hit points that has received 25 "hits" will only operate at 75% power. This is the main reason why I substantially raised the engine hit points, in order to deal with this problem.

 

I may be able to do something about the fire issue, but the problem again is this is likely to create "flying, flaming coffins" that continue to fly, seemingly without ill effect, all the while spewing out great big balls of orange and yellow flame.

 

also it is a hughe factor what bullet spread is chosen. a second in the line of fire with tight or normal setting is causing much more damage than a second with wide setting.

 

Another good point, Dan.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Do we have a consensus that fuel leaks are a little too common using the Ultimate DM, or do most people feel they are about right? The necessary changes are easy to make, they just take a little time to copy them to all 477 aircraft models.

 

Also, how do those of you who use my DM feel about the engine fires? Underdone, overdone, or just right? Does the fire going out bother you? I can add a longer lasting fire, but it may be at the cost of causing the "flamers" to come back.

 

I'm leaning toward making these changes, but thought I'd get some feedback first.

[Olham 164]

- I do NOT have too many leaking tanks (flying Albatros D.II, D.V and D.Va mostly).

 

- I DO feel I have too many engine damages in above planes.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Like I mentioned earlier, I've been satisfied with the current DM mod. I don't want to see the flying burners make a come back.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Duke,

 

I'm a little perplexed about your troubles with the Alb DIII fuel leak. Fuel leaks are handled exactly the same way in the DIII as they are for the Fokker DVII, Pfalz DIII, and all other in-line engine types. The only difference I can think of is that the "hit box" for the Alb fuel tank might be drawn larger than the hit box for those other planes (the Alb series had a rather large fuel capacity). The size of the hit box on the Alb DIII is exactly the same in my DM as it is in the stock version because I have not altered any of the hit boxes on any of the planes (I don't know how to do that).

 

Also, Olham does not report having the same problem.

 

My guess is that you may have just had a run of bad luck against a very tough opponent in the Sop Camels. Were they aces perhaps or from an elite squadron? Aces seem to have an uncanny ability to concentrate their fire on a very precise area of an opponent's plane. If you fly QC, try setting your opponent's skill to novice or veteran instead of ace and see if you get the same results.

 

 

Well I did it a lot and the Alb/DIII almost always suffered a quick hit to the fuel tank that quickly drained it shutting off the engine. Think I only had a fire once. These attacks were from the rear or rear quarter.

 

The other three I tested, in a "as identical" situation as possible, almost never had this issue. I think maybe their was one fuel leak (that was quite slow) between the three of them.

 

Has anyone else tried the "auto-pilot vs 3 Sop/Cam" set-up with the Alb/DIII. The issue was so apparent I find it difficult to believe its just me.

[+epower 23]

I will say now that I am aware of the little fire that goes out. I deliberately chose a small fire over a large fire because the effect on the airplane is the same--about 50% of the time the aircraft will go out of control and crash, and 50% of the time it will keep on flying in a straight line, slowly losing altitude. It made more sense to me for a plane to keep flying with a small fire rather than to keep flying under a blazing inferno, which you sometimes see under the stock OBD game. Unfortunately, the CFS3 game engine does not seem to recognize that fuel tank fires and explosions can totally disable or destroy the pilot or aircraft, and I cannot seem to trigger fuel tank fires and explosions that damage other parts of the aircraft, such as the wings, which would send the aircraft plunging into the ground. In essence, we are left with a choice between some fires and occasionally odd behavior, or no fires at all.

 

 

Do we have a consensus that fuel leaks are a little too common using the Ultimate DM, or do most people feel they are about right? The necessary changes are easy to make, they just take a little time to copy them to all 477 aircraft models.

 

Also, how do those of you who use my DM feel about the engine fires? Underdone, overdone, or just right? Does the fire going out bother you? I can add a longer lasting fire, but it may be at the cost of causing the "flamers" to come back.

 

I'm leaning toward making these changes, but thought I'd get some feedback first.

 

HPW,

 

If the CFS3 game engine doesn't allow you to trigger a catastrophic failure from a fuel tank fire, then I'd say the small fire is preferable, especially if alternative is the return of the "flying Burner." I think what threw me initially was the large fire which then went out. Perhaps an even smaller fire is the way to go? As you say, 50% of the time the pilot is overcome and dies with the plane usually losing control. If the plane glides in a slow descent for the other 50% of these situations, I can certainly live with that. In either case, the enemy craft is out of the fight.

 

 

Creaghorn mentioned bullet spread earlier and this may have much to do with results I've been seeing of late. I did re-enable HPW Front Guns Mod, with AI Gun Range set to Normal and my Main Guns set to less accurate... it's now much more difficult to set these planes alight. Being an old Luftwaffle from my WB days I always get in close (old habits die hard) but with these gun settings, shooting from inside 80 yards seems mandatory. In QC with the twin gun aircraft and even with the Pup, I'm seeing more wings shot off now.

 

I can't comment about the frequency of fuel leaks since I've been flying the Sopwith Pup exclusively in my recent campaign but I'd hesitate to ask for a complete revision of 477 aircraft models just yet. I may give the auto-pilot Alb/ DIII vs 3 Sop/Cam scenario a go and see what comes up with different gun settings.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thank you for the feedback. I will hold off for a little while longer while I wait to see if anyone else has an opinion on this issue. BTW, a revised Ultimate DM would not require a complete revision--just a change to a couple of lines of code. It's the testing and then copying those changes to 477 models that takes most of the time.

 

Olham--

 

I wish I could do something about the grinding engine noises, but that seems to be hardcoded. I could remove the sound file, but many players might not like that, even if the sound does not necessarily indicate the engine is kaput. OTOH, there are other indications the engine is failing--lower RPM's, lower speed and poor climb, perhaps lower oil pressure (have to check on that), and of course, engine on fire is a sure sign you are "in the soup."

[Olham 164]

No, HPW, don't work on that.

Today I had that noise, and it made return back over the lines,

just in case. Then the engine lasted fine all the rest of the flight.

So yes, it makes that noise after each and any hit, but I can live with that now.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Maybe if I reduced the sound level of the grinding engine a little bit? It sounds like a bunch of loose rocks in the engine cylinders as it is now. The first time I heard that loud sound I thought my engine was about to tear itself into little pieces!

[Olham 164]

Well, I know the new P4 sounds are in good hands. So I can wait - I'm used to my "cement mixer" by now.