New DLC: Iranian F-14A

[thodouras95 25]

How many AIM-54A/C Fired from navy F-14's?

None of them shoot their targets down and it has a reason

You know what's the reason

According to Tom Couper's opinion the US Navy can't installed the AIM-54's correctly

But the reverse of it is really attractive

During Iran-Iraq war we had fired many AIM-54 from 80 till 10 mile distance in front of many kind of fighters

No matter Soviet or France fighters they are

Or no matter they are Su-22MK-4's,MiG-25's,Tu-22's,Mirage F-1's,Super etandard's,or Mirage III's(Egypt gave IrAF 3 Mirage III with US made ECM Pods)

And these fighters used the last version of ECM available at that time For example Soviet made the war a real lab for test his weopons and systems

If Iranian AIM-54's downgraded so they can't reach their targets

In a time IRIAF F-14 fired 3 AIM-54 to first to two C-602 fired from Tu-16(K-6D) second Tu-16 and the result is clear the Tu-16 and of of the C-602's shot down but the other C-602 explodes in the air before the Phoenix reach it

In the battle with F-1's they use heavy ECM but inspite of that Tomcat and phoenix don't have any problem with them

So never tell it again

I wonder you know why IRIAF F-14's don't have the IR seeker or explain it?

 

You should read more carefully.I said that the change was so tiny tiny tiny tiny that in actual combat an IIAF/IRIAF F-14A and a USN F-14A would perform exactly the same.I never said they were downgraded to be unable to reach their targets.That would be the claimed Hughes sabotage, which did not happen on more than 20 missiles.The "downgrade" I am talking about was known to the Shah and Iranian military authorities, they agreed upon it themselves so that the Congress would have no problem in letting Iran buy the jets.

 

Also, in the book's own words: "There is only one minor difference - the speed at which the AWG-9 and AIM-54 radars changed their working frequency, or jumped wavelengths to counter jamming, was slightly slower on our systems.This was a politically motivated change to quieten those opposed to the sale of F-14s, and similar highly sensitive systems, to Iran.The modification meant that the Navy could legitimately tell Congress that the systems supplied to Iran were less capable than those used by the US military.In reality, the processors mounted in our jets were barely 1/100th of a second slower than those used in Navy F-14s."

 

So, as simple as possible: They WERE downgraded, but the difference was so small that, in actual combat, there was NO difference whatsoever.So, one could say that they were inferior only in theory.

 

But even if the systems actually weren't as good as Navy F-14s, the Tomcat was such a good plane for its time that an airframe with half the capabilities would probably still be immune to most types of jamming.

 

 

To clarify - this applies to one of the F-14Ds in OSW (1999) - the ordy put the arming shoe or whatever on backwards it has been said

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately - the above is not proof that the ECCM was not downgraded - because these is no evidence to suggest the ECM pods etc in use by the Iraqis were functioning or could use the correct modes, frequencies to jam the missile properly etc - basically even downgraded AIM-54s could still have been good enough for the job.

 

 

Iranian F-14As never got the IRST because they wanted to wait for the TCS - but they never received it because of the revolution etc

 

1.Thanks for addming another one to the list of theories on why those Phoenixes missed.I am now again in doubt.

 

2.The pods were definitely functioning.Whether or not the Iraqis could use them properly is another story.

 

"There is only one minor difference - the speed at which the AWG-9 and AIM-54 radars changed their working frequency, or jumped wavelengths to counter jamming, was slightly slower on our systems.This was a politically motivated change to quieten those opposed to the sale of F-14s, and similar highly sensitive systems, to Iran.The modification meant that the Navy could legitimately tell Congress that the systems supplied to Iran were less capable than those used by the US military.In reality, the processors mounted in our jets were barely 1/100th of a second slower than those used in Navy F-14s."

 

So, as simple as possible: They WERE downgraded, but the difference was so small that, in actual combat, there was NO difference whatsoever.So, one could say that they were inferior only in theory.

 

But even if the systems actually weren't as good as Navy F-14s, the Tomcat was such a good plane for its time that an airframe with half the capabilities would probably still be immune to most types of jamming.

[Carlos_Tex 2]

@morteeza

 

I seriuosly doubt that IIAF supplied Phoenixes were as good in terms of ECCM in comparison with USN rounds. And like migbuster says that doesn't mean Iranian Phoenixes were duds, as most research proved otherwise that the Phoenix did well in the war.

 

There were two incidents in OSW in 1999. One where F-15's and F-14's engaged the same group of IrAf MiG-25's. From what i could understand reading from the DoD report, F-15's engaged with Sparrows and the MiG's turned around. When the Tomcat crew fired its Phoenixes at long range, the MiG's were already flying back. Missiles have fuel too, and fuel runs out. Had the Tomcats fired the Phonixes in a similar situation the Eagles fired their Sparrows the outcome of this engagement could have certainly been different.

 

A MiG-25 flying at high speed, and even at high altitude should not ignore a Phoenix shot event at its Rmax range. The shot doesn't even need a High Speed/High Altitude to maxime further its range, because the closure rate will be incredibly high. Either the MiG-25 spoofs the missile with ECM or it turns back ASAP. According to Tom Coopers research MiG-25's that stayed went down by F-14/Phoenix and the ones that turned back... most survived, one was killed by an opportunistic F-5 crew while the Foxbat was returning to Iraq and one was seriously damaged by a Phoenix when the missile detonated behind the Foxbat who was returning to base at a mere 2.8 Mach.

 

Something similar happened in another occasion in OSW. A pair of MiG-23's also turned back at full speed when a single AIM-54C was fired and the missile eventually ran out of juice before it could reach its target. It was a long rang Link-16 JTIDS shot. LTCDR Ron Candiloro, a Hornet pilot, was flying on the wing of a VF-2 F-14D flight witnessed this event. Because his Hornet lacked JTIDS he had no idea why the Tomcat crew suddenly turned north and accelerated. At that moment he wasn't on the same radio frequency as the Tomcats were, so he was surprised to see the white trail of the missile lofting and guiding to its target as he never heard a Fox 3!

[morteza1374 37]

@morteeza

 

I seriuosly doubt that IIAF supplied Phoenixes were as good in terms of ECCM in comparison with USN rounds. And like migbuster says that doesn't mean Iranian Phoenixes were duds, as most research proved otherwise that the Phoenix did well in the war.

 

There were two incidents in OSW in 1999. One where F-15's and F-14's engaged the same group of IrAf MiG-25's. From what i could understand reading from the DoD report, F-15's engaged with Sparrows and the MiG's turned around. When the Tomcat crew fired its Phoenixes at long range, the MiG's were already flying back. Missiles have fuel too, and fuel runs out. Had the Tomcats fired the Phonixes in a similar situation the Eagles fired their Sparrows the outcome of this engagement could have certainly been different.

 

A MiG-25 flying at high speed, and even at high altitude should not ignore a Phoenix shot event at its Rmax range. The shot doesn't even need a High Speed/High Altitude to maxime further its range, because the closure rate will be incredibly high. Either the MiG-25 spoofs the missile with ECM or it turns back ASAP. According to Tom Coopers research MiG-25's that stayed went down by F-14/Phoenix and the ones that turned back... most survived, one was killed by an opportunistic F-5 crew while the Foxbat was returning to Iraq and one was seriously damaged by a Phoenix when the missile detonated behind the Foxbat who was returning to base at a mere 2.8 Mach.

 

Something similar happened in another occasion in OSW. A pair of MiG-23's also turned back at full speed when a single AIM-54C was fired and the missile eventually ran out of juice before it could reach its target. It was a long rang Link-16 JTIDS shot. LTCDR Ron Candiloro, a Hornet pilot, was flying on the wing of a VF-2 F-14D flight witnessed this event. Because his Hornet lacked JTIDS he had no idea why the Tomcat crew suddenly turned north and accelerated. At that moment he wasn't on the same radio frequency as the Tomcats were, so he was surprised to see the white trail of the missile lofting and guiding to its target as he never heard a Fox 3!

I haven't heard the last paragraph

That was out standing

Thank you

[MigBuster 2,884]

1.Thanks for addming another one to the list of theories on why those Phoenixes missed.I am now again in doubt.

 

Yep - this came from another aviation forum regarding the 5th Jan 99 engagement (Other was 9th Sept)

 

From someone who was in during that time and is still in navy aviation...

VF-213 was intent on getting AIM-54 kills if a situation presented itself on that cruise. They practiced AIM-54 shots up to taking Southern Watch. The only problem was, a new AO (ordnanceman) had checked onboard recently with no Tomcat experience. (I don't have any either BTW, navy sent me elsewhere). He loaded the arming shoe? for all 4 AIM-54s on that flight backwards, so that when they were fired, the rocket arming pins sheered instead of being pulled. Each F-14 fired one, but once they dropped like Mk-54s vice firing off like AIM-54s, they cancelled the intercept. The Mig-25s were in the heart of the AIM-54 envelope and most definitely would have resulted in 2 high speed kills.

Edited May 9, 2013 by MigBuster

[macelena 1,070]

My ordy must be a dumbass then

[thodouras95 25]

[/size]

 

Yep - this came from another aviation forum regarding the 5th Jan 99 engagement (Other was 9th Sept)

 

From someone who was in during that time and is still in navy aviation...

VF-213 was intent on getting AIM-54 kills if a situation presented itself on that cruise. They practiced AIM-54 shots up to taking Southern Watch. The only problem was, a new AO (ordnanceman) had checked onboard recently with no Tomcat experience. (I don't have any either BTW, navy sent me elsewhere). He loaded the arming shoe? for all 4 AIM-54s on that flight backwards, so that when they were fired, the rocket arming pins sheered instead of being pulled. Each F-14 fired one, but once they dropped like Mk-54s vice firing off like AIM-54s, they cancelled the intercept. The Mig-25s were in the heart of the AIM-54 envelope and most definitely would have resulted in 2 high speed kills.

 

I hope things are this way, because when a person who loves the F-14 watches all those people talk about it negatively and reject the Phoenix as unmaneuverable and poor performing gets major butthurtitis and more doubts that can't be resolved.

[Carlos_Tex 2]

I hope things are this way, because when a person who loves the F-14 watches all those people talk about it negatively and reject the Phoenix as unmaneuverable and poor performing gets major butthurtitis and more doubts that can't be resolved.

 

The Phoenix did show some quality problems with AIM-54C rounds, cracks on Rocket motors, but this was a production problem and stuff like this can happen. That does not mean the Phoenix was a poor weapon system. It just did not have the opportunities in USN service. The Iranian experience tells us that it was indeed a valuable weapon system capable of defeating the most dangerous air threats.