Historical tactics question...

[DukeIronHand 8]

While waiting for WOFF (not that I have a lot of time anymore or I would be playing OFF) I have been reading my books.

 

In several books, and mentioned by multiple people, it is said specically that German fighters would hold off from attacking Allied bombing missions until after they had dropped their bombs.

 

On its face one would think an attack prior would be much more practical for obvious reasons.

 

Was this actually a deliberate tactic or are people mistaking other behavior (waiting for additional units, waiting for archies to stop, etc) for this observation?

 

If this was deliberate what was the tactical thinking?

 

I have a couple of guesses but none seem to override the apparent benefit of attacking prior - at least in my mind.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Duke, it wasn't so much that they were holding off the attack as it was the amount of time it took them to respond and reach the Allied bombers.  German units stationed deep in their own territory for the purpose of protection were plagued with the same lack of 'early warning' systems that all the air forces in WWI suffered with, and because the attacking IAF bombers were coming in somewhere between 12,000' and 20,000' it took the German fighters so long to reach them that the bombers were normally on their return leg by the time the intercept was made.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Come on folks, I've only given a small portion of the answer to Duke's question here in hopes of getting the conversation rolling.  There is much more to it than this. 

 

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[Olham 164]

What you wrote sounds most reasonable, Lou, and I don't know anything to add.

So I just wrote this to keep the conversation rolling.

Could anyone put the kettle on? I'd love to have a strong cup of tea.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Oooo, and some fresh almond scones to go along with it.

 

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[rjw 47]

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Oooo, and some fresh almond scones to go along with it.

 

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And don't forget the clotted cream and fresh strawberry conserve Lou!!

 

In keeping with your challenge, I can't immediately add anything. I would need to research this more, but you have certainly perked my interest.

 

Maybe availabe aircraft for intercept was an issue at times?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

And don't forget the clotted cream and fresh strawberry conserve Lou!!

 

Well of course Robert, that should nearly go without saying. 

 

 

To the question, think along the lines of organization ... and caution.

 

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[rjw 47]

Ok Lou, this may be way off, but I'm thinking one concern would be bomber escorts so that would certainly stress caution on attack.

Is it possible one other factor would be rendesvous with other squadrons before attacking?

[Olham 164]

Scones! .... Hmmmm! In Cornwall I had them with cool clotted cream and raspberry conserve!

I'll never forget! Yummie!!!

[Hauksbee 103]

I'm on thin ice here, but, I believe that if the raid is carried out in the morning hours, the prevailing winds should be off the ocean toward land. The German fighters would have to buck a head wind while climbing to altitude.

[Creaghorn 10]

One reason was that the Jastas, and later the JGs were vastly outnumbered. So where the JG appeared they had better numbers since being concentrated at the certain spot, but around them the allied twoseaters passed through unmolested. since they couldn't be at different places at the same time, they let them go and tried to catch them on the way back.

[rjw 47]

Hauksbee. I like your answer as it has some merit. Never thought of that!

 

Creaghorn, also a very interesting point to consider

 

However folks, I have a feeling Lou has an ace up his sleeve that he is not revealing just yet. Hmmmmmm!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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No ace up my sleeve per se Robert, just watching to see what others here would contribute.  Creaghorn has hit upon one of the very essential points in answering the question, which is that the German Air Service fought the entire war outnumbered when one considers the figures along the entire Western Front.  However, by amassing units into specific AOs as needed for specific operations they were able to create a temporary superiority in that area.  And while they had fewer pilots overall the pilots they had tended to be more experienced, and more cautious, because of this ongoing reassignment.  They chose their fights carefully, tending to attack only when odds were as much in their favour as possible, and while Allied pilots ofttime saw this behavior as peculiar or timid, (or even cowardly), it was far from it. 

 

Another fact to consider is that jastas which were assigned to defend and patrol a certain area along the front did just that, and did not shag after incoming Allied bombers but rather left them to the AA and the defenders stationed farther back behind the lines.  Hauksbee's observation about the prevailing winds is also spot on and again points to the German pilots using every advantage they had in an effort to swing the engagement to their advantage.  Why battle against the wind and your enemy during said enemy's ingress when you can simply wait until they are attempting to return home at which point the wind would be in your favour.

 

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Edited November 2, 2013 by RAF_Louvert

[rjw 47]

Thanks Lou; Some very good points here and quite Elucidating.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Thanks for making me hungry after reading all this...I love scones!

 

One of my weak guesses was the wind but since it would effect both sides equally - at least during the actual combat - I dunno.

 

My other weak (but better) guess is that, during WW1 or so I understand, the formation would break up for the actual bombing, making attacks on the individual planes easier and then they reassemble if possible for the flight back home..

[Olham 164]

Many good points - and an interesting and very TOPIC thread! Thanks all!

[Hauksbee 103]

Why battle against the wind and your enemy during said enemy's ingress when you can simply wait until they are attempting to return home at which point the wind would be in your favour?

When I read about the effect of onshore-offshore winds, the author made the additional point that the Allied fighters/bombers had to fight the same wind on their return to base. And many German flyers racked up impressive scores by following crippled aircraft back over the lines and picking them off at leisure.

 

This observation was nested in a larger discussion in which the author (can't, for the life of me, remember where I read this) divides WWI pilots into three categories: the Pioneers, the Romantics, and the Professionals. The first were people who were involved in aviation before the war. They didn't last too long. The second were from the days when you could go out solo hunting, which gave rise to the "Knights of the Air, mano-a-mano duels. This too, passed quickly. Lastly, the Professionals. They were the product of squadron tactics. Guys with no inherent interest in aviation, but just soldiers in airplanes.

[JFM 18]

Lou, that last sentence describes MvR, certainly.

 

Just want to clarify a point about the wind. The wind affected everybody the same way. The only advantage/disadvantage the wind gave to planes aloft was it lowered groundspeed when flying into it. Thus, British planes would be over German territory longer and give the Germans more time to attack. It wasn't that the wind slowed the British planes in the air and the Germans could "catch up" and attack. British flying home would often be in a headwind--but so would the pursuing Germans, wouldn't they? But Germans wouldn't be battling against any wind because in the air, it affects everyone the same. Once free of the ground, an airplane becomes part of the free moving stream of air. It's like canoes on the water, or people riding a moving sidewalk at the airport. You can interact with the person next to you as normally as ever, but you both are moving along much faster than those not on the sidewalk. Consider the people not on the sidewalk as being "on the ground," and the people on the moving sidewalk as "airplanes in the air." So if British planes were coming east and Germans were going west to meet them, headwinds or tailwinds did not affect them relative to each other in the slightest, because they were all part of the same moving stream of air. The only difference would be their groundspeeds, which have nothing to do with airspeeds. This discounts different wind velocities at altitude, but intercepting airplanes were, of course, at the same altitude.

[Olham 164]

Good explanation - thank you, Jim!

[Hauksbee 103]

 British flying home would often be in a headwind--but so would the pursuing Germans, wouldn't they?

I think the authors point was that the Allied pilot/straggler had the head wind as one more problem in a day that fast going to pieces for him. And if that wasn't enough, here comes that bloody red Tripe!

Edited November 3, 2013 by Hauksbee

[JFM 18]

I think the authors point was that the Allied pilot/straggler had the head wind as one more problem in a day that fast going to pieces for him. And if that wasn't enough, here comes that bloody red Tripe!

 

I didn't think that was stated clearly enough, and I've seen groundspeed often confused with airspeed, so wanted to augment the point.

 

BTW, sorry Hauksbee, I attributed a comment you made to Lou, the one about soldiers in airplanes. My mistake.

[von Baur 54]

Option A.

Ingressing Allied bombers are flying with the commonly prevailing winds, which allows them to get to their targets relatively quickly. Since there is no real early warning system, they are already fairly near their targets by the time German planes on the ground can be scrambled to intercept. Those planes then have to climb to altitude, by which time the attacking bombers likely have finished their runs and turned for home. If the German planes try to fly at the bombers as they approach their targets and cannot reach the same altitude prior to the bombers turning for home they then have to continue to climb as they chase them back across the lines. I imagine we've all experienced that frustration virtually, and there's no real consequences for our failure. German aircraft already on patrol might not see the enemy bombers approach at all unless they catch sight of the flak bursts and even if they do see the flak, the attacking bombers have good a lead. We're talking about aircraft with a top speed of around 100 miles per hour, unlike WWII where the fighters were 100 mph or more faster than the bombers. It's tough to catch up and climb at the same time when you're only 20-30mph faster than who you're chasing.

 

Option B.

The attacking allied bombers are sighted and their tracks plotted. Aircraft are scrambled and instead of flying toward the bombers they try to put up a net where they're likely to Egress, beating the retreating bombers to that point. That way they have all the time in the world to focus on getting to altitude. Once there they can turn toward the flak bursts and close quickly, gaining even more altitude and putting them in better position to attack as the Allied bombers struggle against the wind. This would also likely have been the reason the "the bomber will always get through" attitude was so prevalent at the beginning of WWII.

 

It's obviously better to stop the bombers before they get to their targets. But it's equally obvious that option B offers the better chance for success at downing some of them, given WWI limitations. And any bomber that's shot down on its way home is one less that will drop more bombs tomorrow.

[JFM 18]

Let's not forget that we're talking about several airplanes carrying a few small bombs that had extremely poor accuracy. It's not as if the skies were blackened by B-24s or something.

 

But regarding the original post, there are many, many German reports in which the call came in from spotters that planes were approaching, and off they went to intercept ASAP. No mention of "we waited until they dropped their bombs, then attacked."

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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A very good point Jim, WWI bomb raids amounted to nearly nothing when compared to those in the next war to end all wars.  And I also never read a report from the German side that indicated anything other than "Ve zaw ze enemy bombers coming und ve despatched our fighters to interzept az fast az pozzible".

 

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[Olham 164]

...I also never read a report from the German side that indicated anything other than "Ve zaw ze enemy bombers coming und ve despatched our fighters to interzept az fast az pozzible".

...exzept zatt vee don't speek no Inklish, mein Herr!

Mmuahahahahaaa!!!