Need info on F-4C Phantoms

[macelena 1,070]

Anybody can tell me about the use of Flare-Chaff dispensers in F-4Cs? 

 

I watched a TV Documentary about UFO intercepts by the Spanish Air Force, and on such an encounter in 1977 the pilot reported the bogey painted him on radar and he dropped chaff to avoid it. I have been unable to see further indications on the dispensers employed by the Spanish Phantoms, and having searched for photos of them i didn´t get anything showing the ALE-40s wich other late Phantoms carried. I play SF2, and the most advanced C variant, vintage 67, didn´t have them.

 

Does anyone know anything about this?  Spanish Phantoms were based at Torrejon AFB, where an USAF Phantom Wing was based at the same time. Being refurbished models, specially in the electronics area, they could have undergone the same modifications as their USAF counterparts. Does anybody know if there was such a feature retrofitted to USAF F-4Cs in the post-Vietnam era?

[+streakeagle 867]

First, despite tons of F-4 references, I have very little information on Spanish Phantoms. The best reference out of my collection for this purpose is "McDonnell F-4 PHANTOM Spirit in the Skies". Spain got their F-4Cs in 1971-2 and retired them by 1979. Given such a short operational lifespan, I doubt Spain spent much if any money upgrading them. I do not believe regular F-4Cs of any kind ever had decoy dispensers installed, but that is just a best guess. I say "regular" because Spain also operated RF-4Cs, which had flash cartridge dispensers mounted in the tail for shooting photos with flashes. They could and sometimes were used as decoy dispensers, particularly chaff. Another possibility is that Spanish pilots may have recognized the need for decoys to survive on the modern battlefield. So, they may have used an old trick: stuff the air brakes with chaff. 

 

Unfortunately, UFO stories are usually word of mouth rumors with sketchy if not wholly inaccurate "facts". It wouldn't surprise me if the original source of the story involved a completely different country or aircraft type.

Edited January 30, 2014 by streakeagle

[macelena 1,070]

Actually, it was an official report declassified by the Spanish Air Force, and it was more concerned about foreign intruders than extraterrestrial activity. I think it is a reliable source...despite the dubious show i first heard about it.

 

However, as you say, i find it quite weird, since i couldn´t find a picture showing any dispensers, or in any case i missed them. There were other reports of them carrying chaff, but this is the first instance i heard of them being employed. If Torrejon USAF Phantoms, also Cs at the time, didn´t have them, i think you are quite likely to be right on the airbrake theory. The only reference i had was a passage of Ed Rasimus in an exercise against MirageIIIEEs and didn´t mention anything related to that.

 

As a side note, Spanish F-4Cs (fighters) weren´t retired until 1986, when F-18s replaced them. An small new batch of Phantoms, including the first RF-4Cs, was delivered in 1978-1979. More Recon models were purchased until the last RF-4Cs were retired in 2002. The little information about their service is due to an apparently overzealous reluctance by our government to report on their service, something wich has already made it a bit difficult to research for modding Spanish aircraft.

[+streakeagle 867]

Is it possible that the very last F-4C was withdrawn in April 1989 ? Several sources say 1979 (some offline/some online), but could that be a typo in the original source that was duplicated by everyone else reading it?

 

This one says 1989: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_49.html

A couple of nice photos of a Spanish F-4C in 1979:

http://flic.kr/p/68PTHz

http://flic.kr/p/5MDqjx

 

It looks "stock" with no dispensers.

Edited January 30, 2014 by streakeagle

[+Hans Topp 115]

I believe 1989 withdrawn, in 1988 i see it in a air exposition in Getafe air base, with the Mirage III, the DHC 4 Caribou...

[macelena 1,070]

Yes, last flights were in 1989, only that they had been withdrawn with the arrival of Hornets, with pilot training stopped and such, being cannibalized for spares for the RF-4s, later preserved as gate guardians, sent to museums or expended as targets.

 

Also, while the last RF-4Cs were oficially retired in October 2002, when the Moroccans occupied an Spanish deserted Island in the Strait in July, the recon flights were performed not by them, but by Hornets fitted with pods. Sometimes we keep aircraft in service for some time while replacement is being introduced in the same unit, probably longer than other services if procurement of the new aircraft-system and training is not at 100% completed. Some contemporary example would be Ala 14, wich received EF2000s but kept Mirage F1s flying for a while until they were finally preserved for sale.

[JediMaster 451]

Given that the USAF was having trouble detecting hybrid SAM systems locking onto them during Allied Force, and that Iraq lost many fighters due to not recognizing when F-15s locked and launched on them (you can see they fly straight, level, and stupid as Sparrows, the most detectable of all US missiles, home in on them) because their RWRs didn't recognize the signals, I find the idea that Spanish Phantoms detected the radar emissions of a UFO locking on to be beyond dubious.

 

Those RWRs have to recognize the waveforms painting them via threat libraries. If it knew it was being locked up, it was a known radar system.

[macelena 1,070]

That´s another point i found weird. By that era and area (southern coast of Spain), reconaissance flights by Algerian based MiG-25RBs were a quite common issue, however the fact that the object was described as very agile and bright would dismiss that possibility, along with being painted by the unknown aircraft  wich was heading away from the Phantom. There was no info on wich type of signal did the Phantom recieve, and i don´t know what kind of aircraft could have done that. I guess they knew what was it or at least had a close idea about it, but it remained undisclosed. 

[+daddyairplanes 10,127]

to the best of my knowledge, C's never got chaff or flare dispensers like the D and E got. thats why alot of them went to interceptor units in the Air National Guard in the 80's, where they would be expected to be offensive against enemy bombers rather than defensive against fighters. but thats not to say the Spanish or Koreans didn't add on their own systems to their birds..