WOFF FM Thread

[rjw 48]

 Can I have a mod that makes me an 'instant ace', please?

The doctors haven't got that perfected yet Olham, but the chip may be coming out soon! I hope so, before I get too old or get alzheimers!!

[+elephant 36]

You shouldn't say that, gavagai - this thread only started today, and has already two pages.

Me, I just had no time for testing yet - give the people some time, I'd say.

 

Well, he was reffering to me, actually...

I have his Mod for quite some time now, but haven't been able to test it, yet.

 

I tried to run WOFF after upgrading to W 8.1 and after installing the latest video drivers,

but I'm getting too low FPS to enjoy anything. 

I have to reset everything, but I don't remember the NVidia inspector  settings I've been using...

I guess I have to dig the graphics threads allover again!

[rjw 48]

Does anybody have any comments on the two FM tests I ran in QC?  comments on my flight skills to be omitted!

[Adger 87]

You shouldn't say that, gavagai - this thread only started today, and has already two pages.

Me, I just had no time for testing yet - give the people some time, I'd say.

 

Yep i agree with Olham Gav,I just wanted to add that I admire all your work youv,e done in ROF,the thing is is that this is not the busiest of forums anymore aswell unfortunately.Since we moved to simhq and that being our Official home so to speak, most people are more frequent users over there.I reckon that 90% of players who have purchased WOFF and never flown OFF p3 dont even know that this forum exists..sad but true.Are you a member of Sim hq Gav?..im sure that as long as we all behave like the grown ups we are then posting regarding WOFF,s FM,s would be absolutely fine..I think what grates the DEVS and tbh it would me also is when we start saying things like "IM Right,your wrong "  and being OVER critical of the FM  that it starts maybe feeling personal to them.I read somewhere that they,d spent upto 18hrs a day sometimes 7 days a week for 4 years to get WOFF to us...its gonna feel personal to them...I for one would be absolutely delighted to try anything that i believe will expand the Historical accuracy in this Fantastic sim.Gav and the more aircraft you work on then that,d be absolutely brilliant.If they were set up using JSGME then we would have the easy choice to use them or not . .get your postings and FM downloads over at SIM HQ aswell chaps and let more people have there say..cheers for reading,and always my best regards: Adger

Edited March 1, 2014 by Adger

[Lausbub78 0]

Hey all,

 

Bucksnort has posted on the RoF Forums that he has problems loging in to the CombatAce Forums. Here is a copy&paste of his post:

 

 

 

After one post on CombatAce:

http://combatace.com/topic/81898-woff-fm-thread/

when I now try to login it says:

"Sorry, you don't have permission for that! You are not allowed to visit this community."

Olham left this question for me after I lost access:

"PS: Buck, is your mod only for QC, or for campaigns too?"

Could someone please contact Olham and let him know it is good for QC, QS and Campaign and let the guys in the thread know I'm not ignoring them I just can't login for some reason. I've sent a note to a CombatAce Admin to find out why.

Thanks!

[Olham 164]

Thank you, Bucksnort/Lausbub, I'm here as well as at SimHQ.

I may only respond much later, cause I have little time for flying, and I'd need to test

the original FM as well as yours. I'll come back to you, when I have done so.

 

Good luck with your login - maybe you just had the password wrong?

[Adger 87]

Thank you, Bucksnort/Lausbub, I'm here as well as at SimHQ.

I may only respond much later, cause I have little time for flying, and I'd need to test

the original FM as well as yours. I'll come back to you, when I have done so.

 

Good luck with your login - maybe you just had the password wrong?

 

I was hoping for your response Olham..as far as im concerned your the Alb Man   and i trust your judgement regarding Alb,s 100%,Thats not a slur in any way on Gav,Elephant or anyone else who flys the Alb,s i just know that their Olhams plane of choice and he knows them inside out.On a different note ive received an Email from Bucksnort,i wont reveal its contents as its a private PM,ive replied and hope everything gets sorted out,if it hasn,t already .

[rjw 48]

Folks;

 

I have just downloaded both mods identified Bucksnort and Elephant in earlier threads here.

 

I'm about to try them out but was wondering if anyone else has done so. I have looked at all the threads here and I don't see any comments on them.

I have the time to test them but I will await a response.

 

Best Regards;

[+gavagai 0]

Folks;

 

I have just downloaded both mods identified Bucksnort and Elephant in earlier threads here.

 

I'm about to try them out but was wondering if anyone else has done so. I have looked at all the threads here and I don't see any comments on them.

I have the time to test them but I will await a response.

 

Best Regards;

 

So far as I know I am the only one who has tried and tested my Albatros D.Va FM.  That is why you don't see more comments.  People are afraid to be the first?

 

Here are the changes you should look for:

 

1. loaded weight reduced to 914.5kg

2. reduced roll rate

3. no more hockey-skid yaw behavior

4. sensitive elevator to match descriptions of replicas

5. more roll adverse yaw

 

To sum it up, it is more of a hands-on stick and rudder plane than default.  The goal was to make it feel more like a real aircraft, not to make it fly like a toy similar to the WOFF SE5a.

[Adger 87]

Yep im gonna try very soon Robert and Gav..hopefully within the next hr..And i Do appreciate everything your doing Gav,just havent had the time to fully test yet Bud.Hopefully Olham who knows these craft inside out can maybe give us a heads up when Possible.

[rjw 48]

So far as I know I am the only one who has tried and tested my Albatros D.Va FM.  That is why you don't see more comments.  People are afraid to be the first?

 

Here are the changes you should look for:

 

1. loaded weight reduced to 914.5kg

2. reduced roll rate

3. no more hockey-skid yaw behavior

4. sensitive elevator to match descriptions of replicas

5. more roll adverse yaw

 

To sum it up, it is more of a hands-on stick and rudder plane than default.  The goal was to make it feel more like a real aircraft, not to make it fly like a toy similar to the WOFF SE5a.

Ok. I will jump in and see if I can avoid having my ass shot off so to speak!!

One last question. Should I expect the same behavior in QC and Campaign or will things be different?

 

Best Regards;

[von Baur 54]

To gavagai:

My personal belief is that one of the things that hurt Red Baron was all the different fm/dm modifications that were created to "make it historically accurate". The forum often degenerated into harsh comments over 'this plane is porked' and 'that plane is nowhere near agile or fast enough' complaints and all kinds of accusations that could only be speculation on the part of anyone posting them because none of us has ever actually flown any of these planes in the real world (if you have, I apologize for the incorrect assumption). At best, a handful of people now alive have flown reproductions which themselves may or may not behave as did the originals due to improvements in engine manufacture, materials and airworthiness and safety inspections that I doubt many of the originals would pass.

 

To say that any built-from-numbers flight model is correct invites the question "how much of those numbers is propaganda?" Don't forget, Sherman crews were told that their tanks were a match for anything the Germans had. And the MG-42 was downplayed in Ameican training films as its bark being worse than its bite. To think that either side would have been completely honest in reporting the performance of their aircraft or that of the enemy (or other friendly nations and manufacturers for that matter) is, at best, naive, IMO. And besides the 'national pride' or 'aircrew morale' aspect, there were matters of big-money government contracts to take into account. Certainly no one would lie for that, would they?

 

The best you can say is that this is how you think it should be. If you want to do that, by all means, do so. If others agree with your assessment, then they have every right to use your models instead of what comes in the game. But the first thing you know there will be many variations of WOFF, and likely...discussions...over which one is 'right'. This is why I, for one, won't be trying any fm/dm revisions that don't come from, or at least have the blessing of, OBD.

 

 

Personally, the only WWI sim I found whose flight models were probably close to accurate was Richtofen's Skies. It was hard as Hell to fly any of the rotary-powered aircraft without constant input and close attention, with takeoffs and landings being damned near impossible. Which is why I saw many, many people log on, enter the server, and then leave after complaining about not being able to get into the air, likely never to return. Everything else has been far too easy.

[Olham 164]

Hopefully Olham who knows these craft inside out can maybe give us a heads up when Possible.

Too much honour - I have never flown a real Albatros D model, so all I know

is how they were/are in OFF or in RoF. (I wished I knew more...)

 

I had written a post in the Albatros D.V thread on SimHQ today, where I said I was quite pleased

with the D.V we now have (after that correcting patch).

 

Gavagai, I'm not sure if you interprete Gene deMarco right (I guess you quoted him), who said

that the Albatros D.Va was "quite sensitive on the elevator".

It must not mean, that you had to constantly control the stick IMHO - it could just mean, that when

you pulled or pushed the stick, the reaction was immediate and strong.

At least of the D.V I read it had a more balanced flight, even if you let the stick go.

When MvR had his head-shot he was unconscious for a while. His Albatros D.V performed a

kind of wave without control. It went downwards, until it had gained so much speed/lift, that it

went up again. Of course that doesn't automatically mean, the D.Va was the same.

[rjw 48]

gavagai;

 

I have only had two test flights in QC alternating with the stock xfm as comparison and to help me re-enforce my impressions. I personally feel that I experience only marginal improvements but again I have only had two test flights. I have to stop for the moment because the sun has just come to a point where it is coming in my window affecting my Track-IR so I will probably have to wait for an hour.

 

Again to summarize in a turn, I see not significance in turn radius, speed bleed or stall characteristics. That said, I didn't see any significant gain when I tested Hellshades mod.

which I spent considerable time on. Now I am no expert on the DV, but I did post two vids with and without Hellshades mod in combat against 2 Pups which I posted in this thread and if you look at those you can see that the DV flew equally the same with and without the mod. I feeling pretty much the same with yours.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm only saying I don't feel anything significant gained.

 

I haven't tried the DVa yet but I will as soon as the sun gets out of the way of my Track-IR and then I will post my impressions.

 

Hopefully you will get some additional feed back from others to confirm or deny my impressions. I will run the DV mod some more as well and report back again.

 

Best Regards;

[+gavagai 0]

Hi Von Baur,

 

No, I don't have stick time in a WW1 scout.  I have time in light aircraft, though.

 

What I mean when I say "fly like a real aircraft" is just basic flight physics that will not change drastically from one aircraft to the next.  For example, the hockey-skid rudder response is present in all of the WOFF scouts, but you can reduce it with the "weathervane" parameter in the xfm files.  Another flight behavior that I disagree with is that pitch response in WOFF is *extremely* dampened.  Pull back on the stick, release the pressure to the neutral position, and the nose stays exactly where you left it.  Admittedly, my real life stick time is in aircraft with reputations for being easy to fly, and none of them are as good natured as that.  Among flight simulations with high-fidelity flight models only fly-by-wire jets are so obedient.

 

So, yes, absolutely this is a subjective endeavor.  That's why I am curious to have others try out my changes.  I would be glad to hear "what you have done is awful, it stinks, and I hate it."  At least then I would have some feedback.

 

Elephant has packaged my mod so that it only affects quick combat.  You would have to rename the file and put it in the appropriate folders to use it in campaigns.

 

--------------

 

As for the topic of mods in general, I agree that fragmenting a community is bad.  However, there is no multiplayer combat in WOFF, so I don't see a problem here.  90% of my changes only affect the handling of the Albatros D.Va, not the performance.  In fact, the only real issue I have with the relative performance of scouts in WOFF is the high speed of the Nieuport 17, 23, 24, and the Sopwith Camel.  Slowing them down to more plausible airspeeds so that the Albatros fits between the SE5a and Entente rotaries makes everything perfect.

 

------------

 

rjw, the mod elephant posted (my mod) does nothing to the Albatros D.V.  Make sure you see his updated post where he corrected the mistake.  S!

Edited March 2, 2014 by gavagai

[Burning Beard 14]

The problem I saw with Red Baron really doesn't exist here. People tried to use the modified FM/DM's online. And, of course some modified them to dern near F15 characteristics. Since there really isn't an online game, the different FM's are just academic in that they only affect the individual user.

 

Beard

[rjw 48]

 

------------

 

rjw, the mod elephant posted (my mod) does nothing to the Albatros D.V.  Make sure you see his updated post where he corrected the mistake.  S!

Gavagai;

 

Sorry for the mistake. I was actually testing the mod for the DV that Bucksnort posted ( I believe originally from Hellshade with some additional changes).

I have not yet tried the DVa which is from you. I will be doing that soon, so sorry for the confusion. It is my mistake. That being said my impression of the DV mod remains the same at this time.

 

Best Regards;

Gavagai;

 

Sorry for the mistake. I was actually testing the mod for the DV that Bucksnort posted ( I believe originally from Hellshade with some additional changes).

I have not yet tried the DVa which is from you. I will be doing that soon, so sorry for the confusion. It is my mistake. That being said my impression of the DV mod remains the same at this time.

 

Best Regards;

Actually Gavagai, Your mod has been prepared for use in QC and Campaign unless I'm interpreting the mod incorrectly. Look at the screen capture of the mod folder below:

[+gavagai 0]

Well, ok then!  If you see a xfm file in each of those folders with the right name, then it is good to go for the campaign, too!

[rjw 48]

Well;

 

I just flew two more QC flights in the DVa using both the stock mod and what I will refer to as the "gavagai" mod.

I flew free flight doing tight left and right turns climbs and dives, in all cases going for stall limits. I also tried ham handed quick turns to force control loss (what I like to call dolphining or porpoising characteristcs in the loss of control.  I tried 15% to 20% climb hands off to see the response. I found both the stock and the moded xfm to be very similar.

No significant difference to me. Again, I am no expert, but if I had to decide between the two, I would be hard pressed to make a decision.

 

I know this is not what everyone wants to hear and I can't really account for the difference in opinion between myself and Adger. The only difference in our approach is that Adger went into combat for comparison and I went with standard controlled manouvers in free flight.

 

I look to hearing more feedback from other testers as I would not like to think that my test is conclusive.

 

Please feel free to query me on any detail or ask for some more specific testing manouvers to try.

 

Best Regards;

[Adger 87]

Yep just tried 4 QC flights on stock WOFF fm and there seems a difference to me,especially the rudder..Like you say Robert it coud be that you free flew and i Did i QC who knows ..Gavs FM seems easier to fly to me aswell i felt able to control My Alb better,it felt more responsive..Thats the truth of what i found (or seemed to find)  .like you said Robert hopefully more people will respond and post their findings Bud.

[von Baur 54]

Certainly, with no multiplayer in WOFF there will be no accusations of bringing hacked planes into a server for an unfair advantage. But the potential for fragmentation still exists, IMO, because someone flying fm A may describe an exploit in the Reports from the Front thread and someone who swears that fm B is "more accurate" will challenge it as being unrealistic and the flame war will begin. It hasn't happened yet, and hopefully it won't but it doesn't take much, sometimes. We shall see.

 

To all those who like to tinker with fm's and dm's, do so. Some will feel you've nailed it and others will wonder what you were thinking. But if the results please you, then your time was well spent.

[rjw 48]

Yep just tried 4 QC flights on stock WOFF fm and there seems a difference to me,especially the rudder..Like you say Robert it coud be that you free flew and i Did i QC who knows ..Gavs FM seems easier to fly to me aswell i felt able to control My Alb better,it felt more responsive..Thats the truth of what i found (or seemed to find)  .like you said Robert hopefully more people will respond and post their findings Bud.

Hi Adger;

 

All my flights were in QC not Campaign mode. Interesting you notice a difference in the rudder and I didn't find that. Are you able to quantify or qualify exactly what handling aspects you noticed were better and in what particular manouvers? It may help me focus on it when I try it again. I would hate to think I overlooked something when I am giving assessment back on the test.

 

Best Regards;

Certainly, with no multiplayer in WOFF there will be no accusations of bringing hacked planes into a server for an unfair advantage. But the potential for fragmentation still exists, IMO, because someone flying fm A may describe an exploit in the Reports from the Front thread and someone who swears that fm B is "more accurate" will challenge it as being unrealistic and the flame war will begin. It hasn't happened yet, and hopefully it won't but it doesn't take much, sometimes. We shall see.

 

To all those who like to tinker with fm's and dm's, do so. Some will feel you've nailed it and others will wonder what you were thinking. But if the results please you, then your time was well spent.

Von Bauer;

 

There is something to be said for sharing experiences when testing / trying mods. It helps to validate impressions. That said, I agree it requires an open mind and a willingness to accept what you may not want to hear. It's often referred to as maturity in communications, something we all strive for and sometimes fail. But as the man once said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. If we don't try new things we will fail to advance our skills and achievements. We need only bear with differing opinions.

 

Best Regards mate

[+gavagai 0]

rjw, try a slip turn in the f3 fly-by view.  Use full rudder.  You should notice a tremendous difference.  Otherwise the xfm file might not be in the right place.

[Adger 87]

One thing i have noticed at least on my system is a big drop in Fps whilst using JSGME i only noticed because i used JSGME for your FM Gav...i use Ankors new shadowing mod aswell as Arisfusers clouds mod....1st pic is with JSGME off..2nd with it On..fair drop indeed,both taken with just my craft on the grass,Mods on on both shots.same airfield same time of day.so to me at least at the moment anything to do with JSGME is a no show.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Adger

[rjw 48]

rjw, try a slip turn in the f3 fly-by view.  Use full rudder.  You should notice a tremendous difference.  Otherwise the xfm file might not be in the right place.

I will try your suggestion. I know my xfm is in the right place as I validated it before trying the mod. I always look to see the files have been implemented when I activate a mod in JSGME, before using them in WOFF. I'm anal that way. I guess it's my project mgmt background (due diligence).

 

best regards