Thirdwire reference notes?

[tn_prvteye 36]

I don't suppose anyone has TK's last notes about campaign editing? Particularly the supply info? There were some very detailed explanations, and I am afraid all that may be gone now.

[MigBuster 2,884]

You mean note son how it worked instead of modding?

 

I do have some random info - but its not what he had.

[tn_prvteye 36]

I remember a particularly detailed thread he posted in regarding supply settings, and the effect on ground and air offensives. But alas, it's gone. Frankly, any of TK's notes would be nice to have. Maybe the Internet Archive has them...

[andyp_uk 1]

Maybe this will help.  Its a q/a session between a user and TK from years ago.  I kept it because it has some good info in it for sfp1 as least:

 

 

 

Hi TK,

Hope you don’t mind, but I’ve got a few questions about supply settings.

Mainly, I’m trying to determine the timing and allocation of supply:
NormalSupplyRate= <-- How often is supply replenished? Is the total amount divided among squadrons, or does each individual squadron receive the supply-rate figure?
OffensiveSupplyRate= <-- When is this figure subtracted? Is it applied for every offensive sortie, for each individual squadron, or just once overall?
DefensiveSupplyRate= <-- Do the same rules apply as with Offensive Supply Rate?
SupplyForOffensive= <-- Once an Air Offensive starts, how long will it last? Can it stop and start as supply level rises and falls above and below the offensive threshold? Is total supply calculated from a single overall figure, or by totaling the supply level of each individual squadron?
The reason I ask is that I’ve been trying to adjust supply to trigger bombing missions for my Attrition War campaign. Bombing missions were flown occasionally during this period, but not throughout several months at the level of a full-blown air offensive. While I can get the air offensive to start after a few months, it doesn’t seem to want to stop.

Ideally, I’m looking to have a bombing mission assigned every four or five sorties. In practice, the solution that seems to be working for me is similar to what you originally, suggested, setting supply to zero up top and for each individual squadron. That reduces the number of aircraft.

Then, to generate bombing missions:
For fighters I increase the mission chance for Escort, Strike, SEAD, and Armed Recon to higher levels than the air-to-air missions
For strike aircraft, I increase the mission chance for CAP and Armed Recon to higher levels than the bombing missions

What seems to be happening is that when the campaign engine does generate a bombing mission for fighters, or a CAP/recon mission for strike aircraft, the higher chances tend to assign that sortie to the player’s squadron. At least, I think that’s what’s happening. Whatever the case, I’m getting a bombing assignment every four or five sorties, which seems about right for the Attrition War.

Still, I'd like to understand supply better, just to make sure I'm not missing anything important. The knowledge would help in building future campaigns, as well.

Any information or comments you might provide would be much appreciated, TK. Thanks!

(And in case you haven’t noticed, I’m having a ball building this campaign … !  )Joker
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by TK » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:18 pm

Well, supplies are kept track of at both force level, and at individual unit level. The SupplyRates at the the top only apply to change supply at force level, and doesn't directly affect supply at individual unit.

At force level, supply are modified at the end of each mission as follow:

NormalSupplyRate is added after each mission if neither side is in offensive. OffensiveSupplyRate is added (or subtracted, its usually negative) instead if the force is in offensive (either air or ground). DefensiveSupplyRate is used if the enemy force is in offensive instead.

SupplyForOffensive is the level of supply needed at force level for it to go into offensive mode. The offensive will generally continue until the attacking force runs out of supply (although it usually doesn't have to go all the way down to 0, there are several random triggers to stop earlier, I think Failure result by player has a chance to stop a friendly offensive, for example).

For example, WOI campaign 1, for IDF force, I have...

NormalSupplyRate=25
OffensiveSupplyRate=-10
DefensiveSupplyRate=-4
SupplyForOffensive=50

means it only takes maximum of 2 non-offensive missions for IDF to build enough supply to go on offensive (it goes up by 25 each mission, and it only needs 50, so even if its starting from 0, it'll be above that after 2 missions). Once it starts, IDF offensive can last 5+ missions (goes down 10 each offensive mission, and it started with minimum of 50). If the enemy is attacking instead, IDF only loses 4 supply each mission (so when the enemy stops his offensive, defender generally ends with more supply, and have a chance for offensive next round).

All these are also modified by player performance and campaign difficulty level.

If the offensive is not stopping, you probably need to adjust the OffensiveSupplyRate and DefensiveSupplyRate, and make them more negative. At the extreme, setting them to -100 should make it so the offensive will last only 1 mission, for example.

At the unit level, you don't have too much control at this point...

The individual unit supply is first adjusted up / down based on wether the unit performed mission or not, or changed based or not, or received replacements or not, etc. I think each unit generally expend roughly 10 supply points for each mission. Then, it immediately "receives" supply based on the current the force level supply point. So if the supply at force level is high, its adjusted up, and if its low, its adjusted down.

Again, all these are also modified by player performance.

Now, if you don't want any bombing mission at all, that might be slightly more involved, since campaign can and will generate bombing missions even if you're not on offensive. It picks random player mission during non-offensive phase based on Mission Chance, so you're right, you want to increase the chance for other types of missions besides the Strike.

But, that still might not prevent bombing mission from coming up entirely because at the end of the genrator, campaign engine has to generate a mission - and if it fails to genarete a valid one, I think Strike mission is one of the default mission types it falls back on.

TK
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TK
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by Joker » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:36 pm

Terrific! Thanks so much for taking the time to provide an explanation, TK. Everything is clear, now. Thanks again! Joker
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Re: TK, A Few Questions About Supply ...
by malibu43 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:40 pm

Hey TK,

I'm working on getting a WOV campaign to play out with a somewhat historically accurate air and ground war, and I have a few questions along similar lines:

1. What exactly does ForceWithInitiative control? I know by switching it, I seem to change which side has a ground offensive first. Does it basically just control which side goes on offensive first? If not, then what else is it controlling?

2. Is it possible for one side to be on an air offensive and the other side to be on a ground offensive, or can only one side be on offensive at a time? For example, in WOV, I'd like to have the USAF on an air offensive while N. Vietnam is on a ground offensive. If this is possible, can it be controlled or influenced in any way, or is it just up to the game engine?

3. What is the difference between being on an air offensive, and the game engine just picking random missions when not on an air offensive? Is it simply whether or not strikes are fragged based on the Offensive targets listed in the campaign_Data.ini?

4. What does StartInterdiction control? Even if it's set to 100, you still get strike missions assigned right off the bat. Does it just control when you start the first air offensive against the listed targets?

5. Now that armed recon works in campaigns, what campaign factors affect how often/when armed recon missions are fragged/available (other than the mission priorities for individual units)? For example, if I set an air unit to 0 for everything and 100 for armed recon, will I get only armed recon missions, or do certain campaign circumstances need to be met for armed recon to be fragged?

Sorry for the long list of questions, but these are some things I'm having a difficult time determining by trial and error.

Thanks!

Greggmalibu43
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Re: TK, A Few Questions About Supply ...
by TK » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:40 pm

Hi malibu43,

1. ForceWithInitiative sets who starts with initiative/offensive. In campaign, one force has "Initiative" and it generates offensive missions (sweep, strike, escort, sead), and the other side essentially react and generates defensive missions (cap, interecept). Ground offensive is a subset of offensive, you have to be in offensive to go on ground offensive, but being in offensive doesn't always lead to ground offensive. The Initiative can change from one side to the other depending mostly on supply, but also on how well the player does.

2. No. From gameplay stand point, it doesn't make make sense for one side to be in air offensive while other side in ground offensive, since the player may be tasked with bombing targets while the front lines moved unrelated to the player's action. Its probably best if you want NV to go on ground offensive to let them have the offensive for a short while, so player gets missions centered around their ground offensive.

3. Well, the main difference is the mission type and targets - if in air offensive, you're getting offensive missions only, and targets off the target list. And if not, you're getting random mission (both offensive and defensive) and random targets. If you limit the player unit's mission type to offensive ones only, then there probably isn't much difference between the two, from player's perspective, the difference is probably just the size of the air activity. If not, then you'll end up with mix of offensive and defensive missions (CAP mission for example, where enemy has to send their aircraft into your airspace).

4/5. StartInterdiction is the number of missions you need before getting ArmedRecon mission, so if you want Armed Recon mission, you want this number to be low. ArmedRecon are generated if the truck routes are in movement .ini files, and if they're near the primary target area (either main strike area or main ground offensive area).

Keep in mind that the campaign engine is really meant for full-scale conventional war with defined front line moving back and forth, and so you may not be able to model less conventional war like Vietnam war - mostly guerrilla warfare/police action driven by political goals rather than military goals - all that accurately...

I hope this helps!
TK
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Re: TK, A Few Questions About Supply ...
by malibu43 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:03 pm

Definitely helps!

Thanks a lot!malibu43
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Re: TK, A Few Questions About Supply ...
by malibu43 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:58 pm

OK, one more question. What is GroundUnitReplacement time measured in? Is that day's, offensive missions, etc...? What other factors affect this?

Essentailly, I want ground units for both sides to replenish immediately (or as quickly as possible) so that ground offensive can happen as much as possible. What value would I want for GroundUnitReplacementTime and what other factors affect it?

Thanks!

[Do335 382]

Cool, just what I need! TK said lots of stuff like these over the years. More please if anyone has it!

Shame on myself as I only saved TK's notes on some FM param.

[tn_prvteye 36]

Perfect.  Thank you so much!

[jeanba 1,920]

Hi

 

I have a stupid question :

In the .ini, the force, the UnitID for each flyable unit, how is it declared ?

Must it correspond to the unitid in the data.ini ?

Example :

Quote

[IraqUnit002]
Squadron=No.1 FBS
ForceID=2
UnitID=24
StartDate=09/22/1980
DescFile=Campaign1Desc.txt
StartText=Campaign1Start.txt
AircraftType=Su-20B

refers to unit 24:

Quote

[AirUnit024]
//Razoux
AircraftType=Su-20B
UnitName=No.1 FBS
StartDate=1980
ForceID=2
Nation=Iraq
//DefaultTexture=Iraq
StartNumber=
BaseArea=Al-Hurriya Airbase

Is this ok ?

 

In Spud's campaign, it is completly different and it somehow works anyway

[+Hans Topp 115]

3 hours ago, jeanba said:

Hi

 

I have a stupid question :

In the .ini, the force, the UnitID for each flyable unit, how is it declared ?

Must it correspond to the unitid in the data.ini ?

Example :

refers to unit 24:

Is this ok ?

 

In Spud's campaign, it is completly different and it somehow works anyway

Yes mate!!!

[jeanba 1,920]

Ok, need to use my brain to find the error

Can somebody give me a brain ?

[+Hans Topp 115]

 

It usually happens that the numbers are not correlated, either we have skipped one or we have doubled it, yoy must check the campaign.ini and the campaign_data.ini. 

[madvad 650]

On 18/11/2018 at 7:02 AM, jeanba said:

Hi

 

I have a stupid question :

In the .ini, the force, the UnitID for each flyable unit, how is it declared ?

Must it correspond to the unitid in the data.ini ?

Example :

refers to unit 24:

Is this ok ?

 

In Spud's campaign, it is completly different and it somehow works anyway

If you're counting on the Allied side, yes.
The UnitID for you to fly the aircraft will be its count starting from 1.

That said, if you are going to fly on the "enemy" side, you have to disregard this XXX.data.ini count and start the enemy side from 1 again.

Example: You have a MiG that in XXX.data.ini is [AirUnit024], but if it is the FIRST aircraft on the Enemy side, you should consider it as UnitID=1, like this:

"[IraqUnit001]
Squadron=No.1 FBS
ForceID=2
UnitID=24>>> Here you must put 1 instead of 24<<<<<<
StartDate=09/22/1980
DescFile=Campaign1Desc.txt
StartText=Campaign1Start.txt
AircraftType=Su-20B"

And so on consecutively.
For the enemy side you should always start counting from 0 in the order they appear, ignoring the AirUnit sequence they are in.

[jeanba 1,920]

Thank you

I will correct accordingly