Aircraft Toughness

[Wrench 9,850]

never seen fiberglass listed as an armor material. Traditionally, it's always just been

 

wood

glass

aluminum

steel

titanium

 

---

stratos

have you looked at my ww2 bombers -both medium and heave- , fighters and such? study the data inis... :)

 

this was discussed at length some time ago in the ww2 threads (someplace!)

 

think of "armor as structure"

[Stratos 3,192]

 

stratos

have you looked at my ww2 bombers -both medium and heave- , fighters and such? study the data inis... :)

 

this was discussed at length some time ago in the ww2 threads (someplace!)

 

think of "armor as structure"

 

Cheking now! Thanks for the tip!

[Do335 382]

I'm vividly searching these topics at the TW foras. TK's post are spread all over the place, along with some CA in house modders'. There could be more.

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6276&p=38684&hilit=hitpoints#p38684

 

 

I want to make sure I understand the Damage boxes and System boxes to get the damage box editor situated for beta release.

 

Only components can be damage boxes. In the components section the

 

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

Define the corners of the damage box.

 

Outside the components

 

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

 

Define the system boxes. For a system to take damage it must be listed in the component section with

 

SystemName[001]=

 

The exception to this are control surfaces, whose volume and end points are defined via the visual model itself. The control surfaces still need to be listed in the components area as a system to take damage.

 

The System box volume defines the “hitpoints” for each system/box.

 

WoX Logic

The damage boxes are used to initially detect if a round hits the aircraft. If a round impacts a damage box, each system box is checked to see if it’s been hit. If it’s been hit, damage to the system us calculated. If no system boxes are hit, the calculated damage is allocated to the component that defined the damage box.

 

Questions

1) Do control surfaces still need MinExtentPosition=, MaxExtentPosition=?

2) Can MinExtentPosition=, MaxExtentPosition= be used instead of the visual model volume to calculate the “hitpoints”?

3) What is the logic used to determine the control surface volumes? I might be able to pull these out of the LOD file with the Editor if I know what is being used.

4) Once a system box is determined to be hit, are other system boxes still checked?

5) Does a system listed in 4 components take the same damage as one giant box? For example: say 4 component boxes are used to define the vertical tail instead of 1. Would damage to the rudder be the same?

6) In the future would the collision points be used so aircraft can belly land or is a different system planed? If you haven’t thought about it yet that’s fine. Just want to know how much effort to put into them since their xyz’s can also be defined/edited.

7) The plan is to define separate oil and coolant component boxes and define their systems boxes using COOLING_SYSTEM and OIL_SYSTEM system names. Would this best position the damage system for future updates?

8 ) Is armor just a means to increase the hitpoints of a system or a threshold to define the kinetic energy that must be exceeded to damage the system? My hope is the latter. CFS3 has the former which allowed a Spitfire with 8 .303’s to kill tanks where a 4 cannon Tempest could not. The reality is the 8 x .303’s should have done little or no damage basically just bouncing off.

 

Well, I think you're making it more complicated than it is...

 

The logic is pretty simple, the game first checks for collision box for the whole plane - if it hits, then it checks to see which components are hit - if any is hit, then it check the systems within that component to see which one is hit.  

 

All these are done to prevents having to do time-consuming collision checks on every single bullet against evey single systems in evey single airplane.

 

Multiple systems and components can be hit if there are enough damage to carry over.

 

To answer the list of questions...

 

1. No.

2. No.

3. It finds the min/max points in that model nodes and use that as hit box.

4. Yes, if there are enough damage to carry over.

5. System listed in 4 components will be created as 4 separate systems.

6. CollisionPoint are already used in case of belly landing.

7. Maybe, sooner I can stop answering q's here and go back to coding, better the chance :)

8. Armor absorb energy from every damage,  So you can think of it as "means of increasing hitpoints of a system"  that never depletes, or as "threshold ... energy that must be exceeded to damage the system".  However, there is always a chance for critical hit that bypass the armor with every shot, so even with 8 x .303’s, you can still get that lucky shot.

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6206&p=38198&hilit=hitpoints#p38198

 

"Hit points" are assigned automatically based on the size of hit box.

 

Essentially, its = hitbox.x * hitbox.y * hitbox.z * StructuralFactor (for that system/component) * VolumeStructurePoint (global value).

 

TK

--

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=27300#p27300

 

We currently don't allow different materials in given node, so it'll just use the first listing.  You can, of course, have different material at different places in the airplane, so you might be able to move the bottom and behind armor to the component (instead of system), etc.

 

Or, you could also use an equivalent thickness for different matrials, and use that instead.  In game terms, GLASS is rated at strength 4 per mm, ALUMINUM at 16, STEEL at 64.  So if you want to have one face GLASS and others STEEL, you can set it to STEEL, and divide the armor thickness where GLASS would be by 16 (64/4) - 80mm of GLASS would have same armor value as 5mm of STEEL, for example.

 

I *think* duralumin is basically aluminum, so its prolly safe to use the ALUMINUM as armor type.  If anyone has details on its tensile strengths compared to basic ALUMINUM, you can use their relative strengths to come up with equivalent thickness as above.

 

And in many modern tanks, they use composite materials, and their armor rating is giving using equivalent thickness - not the actual thickness but how thick the amour would have to have the same stopping value if it was made of steel.  (for example, composite armor, which in phyiscal thickness only measures 140mm, can have equivalent steel thickness of 500mm or more).  

 

TK

--

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=249#p249

 

As for the strength of the aircraft, there are a couple of ways to modify this...

 

For one, you can add Armor to any component or any system.

 

Add the following lines

 

HasArmor=TRUE  <--- set to TRUE to add armor to this particular system or component

ArmorMaterial=STEEL  <-- type of materials, used as multiplier to the thickness (see more below)

Armor[FRONT].Thickness=100  <-- thickness in mm

Armor[REAR].Thickness=100

Armor

.Thickness=100

Armor

.Thickness=100

Armor[TOP].Thickness=100

Armor[bOTTOM].Thickness=100

 

Material names available are

ALUMINUM

STEEL

TITANIUM

GLASS

FIBERGLASS

WOOD

 

Steel actually is the strongest per mm, Titanium the next (Titanium is lighter than steel for the same thickness, though).  Aluminum is much much weaker than both Titanium or Steel.  Then Glass is next, then Fiberglass, then wood.  

 

You can also vary the thickness for different facing (front/rear/left/right/top/bottom).

 

And another, more general way to increase strength is to add structural strength modifier to any component or system

 

StructuralFactor=1.5

 

This makes particular system or component 1.5 times as much structural strength (or "hit points") as usual.  

 

TK

--

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=36154#p36154

 

Randomly, small fires can progress and become larger, or be extinguished - chances of all that data should be set somewhere in the master AircraftData.ini.

 

FireSuppression should reduce the chance of your aircraft catching fire in the first place, especially from smaller caliber (ie non-explosive, like 30 cal or 50 cal) weapons.  

 

TK

--

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=36212#p36212

(from Stary)

 

GrimViper the data you seek is inside of main AIRCRAFTOBJECT.INI (inside of objectdata.cat)

 

Here are the values, stock Oct 08 version:

 

[ObjectFire]

FireCheckTime=4.0

APRoundFireChance=1

HERoundFireChance=5

HERoundExplosionChance=1

ExplosionChance=3

SuppressionChance=10

ProgressionChance=25

 

I think the last two are most important in modelling fire behaviour

 

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=41552#p41552

 

Which F-4 are you having problem with?  Later model F-4 are more protected than earlier models, for example.  

 

Fuel leak will only happen on unprotected fuel tanks, A-10 have self-sealing fuel tanks so you're not likely to see fuel leak situation on that.  Try older aircraft if you want to see fuel leaks.

 

Individual fuel tanks and engines has its own settings in regards to fire extinguisher.  Usually, wings tanks are not protected (I guess theory being that they'll be empty by the time you get to the battle, while fuselage tanks are.  Also, the engine fire depends on the engine temperature, if you had it running hot all the time, then its more likely to catch fire (and not extinguish).

 

 

TK

--

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6238&hilit=firesuppression 

 

Below is a screen shot of the damage box editor in development. So I have more damage questions (been beating up on the poor An-12):

 

1)    Looking at the An-12 [RightOuterWing] it has 3 systems. If one bullet hits, does each system get 33% of the damage, or randomly one system takes all.

2)    If I add StructuralFactor=1000 to the [RightOuterWing] does this boost the listed systems also? This 1000 seems to work best for wing damage.

3)    If a box has a box inside it, will the box inside take damage?

4)    What is the formula for the amount of damage generated when a round hits a damage box?

5)    When a damage box takes damage, what determines what effect to use?

6)    What determines the xyz of where the damage emitter originates?

7)    Fuel tanks (and other non components) also have

                          MinExtentPosition=-12.90,0.65, 0.83

                          MaxExtentPosition= -2.55,4.00, 1.25

                Are these also considered damage boxes?

8 )    Is anything with MinExtentPosition= and MaxExtentPosition= a damage box?

9)    Peeking in you code both COOLING_SYSTEM and OIL_SYSTEM are listed. Are they active for piston engines so we can use them?

10)    I had a AI (An-12) fuel tank one time catch fire and then go out, another time it caught fire and spread all across the wing. What controls this? Usually they were thin streams trailing back.

.

.

.

1. Each system has its own hit box, and whichever system get hit get hit.

2. No, that only increase the hit point for the component (damage it takes to destroy the whole component).

3. No, not unless that inside box is also hit, or if the entire component is destroyed (in which case all systems are also destroyed).

4. Depends on the type of ammo. The damage amount used in the game is calcuated by Energy. For slugs (guns without explosives), its kinetic energy - bullet mass times the velocity squared. You can get the maximum damage by using the muzzle velocity (ie, at point-blank range). Down range, it'll probably do about 1/10th the damage (velocity typically drops to above 1/3 of MV). For explosive, its the explosive mass times a constant (chemical energy per mass of the explosive, don't remember off the top of my head exactly what this was), divided by, I think, the square of distance from the explosision.

5. AircraftObjects.INI has section for Effects that lists what effects are called.

6. Usually center of the hit box, although some system (like engine) might have other emitter position defined thats used.

7. Yes.

8. Everything that can be damaged should have a damage box, although not all of them need them specified - some system hitboxes, like control surfaces, taken from the 3d model's extent.

9. No.

10. AircraftObjects.INI should have section for Fires, it should list the percent chance for spreading or putting out the fire. I think they're modified by SelfHealing= and FireSuppression= data in aircraft fuel tank section as well.

 

TK

--

Edited April 13, 2015 by Do335

[Do335 382]

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6238&hilit=firesuppression

 

Below is a screen shot of the damage box editor in development. So I have more damage questions (been beating up on the poor An-12):

 

1) Looking at the An-12 [RightOuterWing] it has 3 systems. If one bullet hits, does each system get 33% of the damage, or randomly one system takes all.

2) If I add StructuralFactor=1000 to the [RightOuterWing] does this boost the listed systems also? This 1000 seems to work best for wing damage.

3) If a box has a box inside it, will the box inside take damage?

4) What is the formula for the amount of damage generated when a round hits a damage box?

5) When a damage box takes damage, what determines what effect to use?

6) What determines the xyz of where the damage emitter originates?

7) Fuel tanks (and other non components) also have

MinExtentPosition=-12.90,0.65, 0.83

MaxExtentPosition= -2.55,4.00, 1.25

Are these also considered damage boxes?

8 ) Is anything with MinExtentPosition= and MaxExtentPosition= a damage box?

9) Peeking in you code both COOLING_SYSTEM and OIL_SYSTEM are listed. Are they active for piston engines so we can use them?

10) I had a AI (An-12) fuel tank one time catch fire and then go out, another time it caught fire and spread all across the wing. What controls this? Usually they were thin streams trailing back.

.

.

.

1. Each system has its own hit box, and whichever system get hit get hit.

2. No, that only increase the hit point for the component (damage it takes to destroy the whole component).

3. No, not unless that inside box is also hit, or if the entire component is destroyed (in which case all systems are also destroyed).

4. Depends on the type of ammo. The damage amount used in the game is calcuated by Energy. For slugs (guns without explosives), its kinetic energy - bullet mass times the velocity squared. You can get the maximum damage by using the muzzle velocity (ie, at point-blank range). Down range, it'll probably do about 1/10th the damage (velocity typically drops to above 1/3 of MV). For explosive, its the explosive mass times a constant (chemical energy per mass of the explosive, don't remember off the top of my head exactly what this was), divided by, I think, the square of distance from the explosision.

5. AircraftObjects.INI has section for Effects that lists what effects are called.

6. Usually center of the hit box, although some system (like engine) might have other emitter position defined thats used.

7. Yes.

8. Everything that can be damaged should have a damage box, although not all of them need them specified - some system hitboxes, like control surfaces, taken from the 3d model's extent.

9. No.

10. AircraftObjects.INI should have section for Fires, it should list the percent chance for spreading or putting out the fire. I think they're modified by SelfHealing= and FireSuppression= data in aircraft fuel tank section as well.

 

TK

--

[Wrench 9,850]

didn't remember about the fiberglass! interestering!

 

even before I looked at the links, I just KNEW the questions were from gregoryp. The man really knew his stuff!!

[Do335 382]

Wrench that post is very old SFP1, if TK didn't use it for later titles I reckon it'd be best to comply with his later format as it's possible he dropped it like you said. Unless one's willing to do rigorous testing to verify ofc..

Edited April 13, 2015 by Do335

[+Stary 2,427]

I'll ad my 20 cents too,

 

I think you should also look into the global file above all aircraft files which is ofc aircraftobject.ini

at one point in install long lost I had tewaked groundobject.ini that made tanks virtually indestructable by 20mm fire so maybe by pararell there might be easier way to tweak whole system so to speak

 

these two are to dig into I think

[GameObjectData]
MinSystemHitChance=25
VolumeStructurePoint=5000

 

overall I think the guns are overpowered for me but...

[Fubar512 1,350]

didn't remember about the fiberglass! interestering!

 

 

Cool, we can have Corvettes as ground objects! 

[Stratos 3,192]

Wondering what determines (if anything) the type of damage a plane suffers or a weapon deal. For example, light caliber AAA get your plane full of holes, sometimes destroying control surfaces but rarely making your plane explode on a ball of fire, while A-A missiles almost always make your plane explode in huge and bright balls of fire.