India to import 36 Rafales for the IAF

[+ghostrider883 526]

Finally some movement...

 

Here are the latest developments in the story:

1. "I asked the President to supply us with 36 Rafale jet fighter planes, the ready-to-fly models," the Prime Minister said at ajoint news conference.
2. He said terms and conditions of the contract have yet to be finalised and officials from both sides would work out the details.
3. The original plan was for India to buy 18 off-the-shelf jets from France's Dassault Aviation, with 108 others being assembled in India by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL in Bengaluru.
4. Sources said if negotiations work out, India would buy 144 aircraft, 18 more than the original 126, ensuring that 108 jets will still be assembled at home.  
5. The Modi government, the sources said, will not give up its Make In India push to promote manufacturing at home and to build a domestic military-industrial base. "The French President has supported Make In India.  It is not a project, it is a thought," PM Modi said.
6. "France has always been a reliable supplier for India from jet fighters to submarines," the Prime Minister said.
7. India is ordering the 36 off-the shelf Rafale fighters to speed up the purchase and immediately give the air force two squardons of the jets that it desperately needs to upgrade its ageing fleet, sources said.
8. For three years, the Rafale deal has been mired in extensive negotiations. Dassault has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.
9. The Rafale was chosen in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia.
10. The original proposal for 126 fighter jets was worth at least 12 billion dollars.

 

[Stratos 3,177]

Great choice I think, is a great jet for sure. Congratulations to India for the purchase.

[+Coupi 4,295]

...

 

180 + 24 + 36 = 240

 

I hope... 45 (5th batch France) + 24 (Qatar) + 36 (EAU) and more!

Edited April 11, 2015 by Coupi

[Eole 1,032]

Great News for Indian Air Force with the first Upgraded Mirage 2000TI delivery ( Share lot of things with the Rafale)

 

Another good news INAS officials ask to Dassault if Rafale M would be able to take off from their 2 future non CATO BAR Aircraft Carriers

Edited April 11, 2015 by Eole2

[Peugeot205 2,745]

...

 

180 + 24 + 36 = 240

 

I hope... 45 (5th batch France) + 24 (Qatar) + 36 (EAU) and more!

 

You are very optimistic , especially with our 5th batch. 

 

 

Another good news INAS officials ask to Dassault if Rafale M would be able to take of their 2 future non CATO BAR Aircraft Carriers

 

Well, the compatibility of the Rafale M with a non CATOBAR carrier, meaning that the Rafale M could operate from a STOBAR carrier , in my opinion is far from real. Because the supposed compatibility of STOBAR operations was given by Dassault years ago via a computer simulation, so it could possible, but no one is 100% sure that this kind of operation could be done.

 

If  finally it is possible , I'm sure that the take-off weights would be much smaller that the weights of the Rafales operating from a CATOBAR carrier, just take a look to the load of Russians Su-33s or Indians Mig-29s from their home carriers, and therefore here is the key , does it worth to buy a 4.5th generation carrierbone fighter that can not be used with his maximun load? In my opinion it doesn't.

[Eole 1,032]

I agree with you but you know the story ...

 

I read the informations here (French Forum with an English sub-forum for non French speakers)

 

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/21-linde/page-394?do=findComment&comment=858744

Edited April 11, 2015 by Eole2

[Evildeadmeat 153]

It seems that the 36 aircraft France has sold to india will be the only ones in IAF inventory. French TV reports that Dassault 126 Rafales contract is about to be cancelled.

[+logan4 845]

If that cancellation will happen then I really not understand the french sales logic and attitude. Please not take it personally (of our french members), but "they" always cry as "no sales" and "no one is buying" but not willing to ease/be flexible on sales/production terms is just goes against logic. If my info is correct, they can not agree on terms of warranty or level of warranty of the aircrafts to be assembled in India.

That what holds the signature of the initial 118 pieces. They order the 36 to have AC quickly join the Air Force as their older models of make wear out faster (attrition rate higher) then they planed or calculated with and the ones to be assembled in India are many more years away.

 

There are various ways they can ensure the AC quality is up to equal like the home made ones. Though I have no idea if they want to make entirely locally produced (meaning all of the components) or just assemble kits from France. The first case has its leaks but can be managed also, the later is quite simple to control.

 

Just an example from other part of life. If someone buys a smart phone or an LCD TV or even a car, just a very few percentage will look at the label where it was assembled. They look at the brand/type. The warranty terms are identical regardless they were assembled in the US, Japan, China, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, India, Taiwan or bongo-bongo. Since the production quality requirements are identical in each place and the "brand" holder ensures that they produce them within the given production parameters and variables its never a question.

If something is faulty they fix it or replace it. Their handling of the "problem source" will depend internally on their plans to avoid future mistakes of the same kind and the handling goes down on the supplier chains as it is and to the level is necessary.

The entire system exists already in the world they not have to implement or come up with something new or difficult, just have to kick out the bureaucratic attitude, mindset and willingness, or the fellas whom stick to them.

[Evildeadmeat 153]

   I'm french and, honestly, sometimes i don't understand our own logic. I remember when the contract for 126 aircraft was announced, they labeled it, "le contrat du siècle" ( the contract of the century). We were in 2012 and Rafale had won the MRCA in India. Dassault had so much trouble saling its aircraft and this first contract was just amazing so everyone considered it a flawless victory. It reminds me the aborted sale in Brazil where we were supposed to have a firm order. Ultimately, Brazil ordered Gripens...

   In indian case, it seems that there were problems in negociations between french and indians manufacturers. Most of the 126 aircraft were supposed to be built in India. It seems that Dassault faced difficulties to build a working production line for the aircraft in India.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Evildeadmeat

[MigBuster 2,875]

?

 

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/future-rafale-deals-will-also-be-under-govt-to-govt-parrikar/article1-1336821.aspx

 

The defence minister indicated on Monday a $25-billion Indian tender for buying 126 advanced combat aircraft had virtually been scrapped, with New Delhi stressing any future deal for Rafale fighter jets would be through direct negotiations with the French government.
 
The move comes two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from France in fly-away condition through the government-to-government (G2G) route, reflecting a sense of urgency to buttress the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s depleting fleet.
 
India picked Rafale jets over Eurofighter Typhoons in January 2012 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender for 126 planes.
 
But New Delhi may no longer go in for 126 planes and could reassess its requirements in the new scenario. As of now, the government appears to be keeping its options open to buy more fighters – it could turn to France or another foreign vendor.

[+ghostrider883 526]

HAL facilities are  not good enough to manufacture Rafales in India. Indian built Su-30MKis seems to suffer from more problems than their Russian built counterparts, and that may be the reason France is hesitant on the warranty clause.

Meanwhile, the Indian Defence Minister has declared any further Rafale purchases will be direct government two government negotiations only. The MMRCA contract will be scrapped and the LCA Tejas will be used to make up for shortfall in numbers. As much as I would like the LCA is large numbers, it can never be as capable as Rafale, and this decision is going to make a lot of people in Air Force unhappy, for a Force that is struggling to maintain required fighter numbers.

[JediMaster 451]

It seems the warranty issue should've been let go. If France was certain that the HAL-made jets were going to be problematic, why would they want to pay to fix them when it could easily eat up their profits, if not in the short term than certainly over the life of the plane?

 

The insistence on "I want you to pay to fix anything I make if it breaks" is ridiculous. Now if Dassault picked a company in Japan or Korea or Italy or wherever else to build them and delivered them to India, then yes it would be incumbent on them to warranty that work...because THEY picked it. The customer insists on building them themselves, you know the work will not be as good and the planes will need more maintenance/spares/whatever, naturally you're not going to like it. My guess is Dassault wanted to raise the price for those HAL-made machines but India didn't want to pay.

 

If India wants to get HAL to where Dassault is, they have to accept that the planes they make won't be to the same standard, at least in the beginning until they acquire those skills, and THEY will have to pay to fix it. They can't have it both ways, and cancelling the deal over it is ridiculous.

Frankly, HAL has been around a long time with a lot of experience and it reflects poorly on them that their work standard is still considered too low.

Edited April 15, 2015 by JediMaster

[Evildeadmeat 153]

Ok, it makes sense. It still seems a little bit weird. India is not very confident in its abilities to build high end technological aircraft but at the same time, you can find indian engineers and scientists in a lot of highly technological programs. I learnt some indians engineers have worked with NASA on some of the satellites they launch. There are indians students in almost all of the greatest schools and universities of the world. Of course, I understand this is not the same thing as building an aircraft on your homeland. My point is that I believe India now may have the knowledge to develop such programs like building new generation aircraft. This is why I don't fully understand the "I want you to pay to fix anything I make if it breaks" thing. Are they really so afraid of doing wrong?

[JediMaster 451]

It's not a groundless fear, the Tejas program and the above mentioned Flanker issues illustrate it is still a current issue.

 

I agree that their technical skills are up to par, but just because you have the body of an athlete doesn't mean you will be a successful one. You need to have the mindset as well. They have the pieces, they so far lack the management skills to bring it all together in a world-class way. I have a lot of Indian engineers in my company as well, but not as many managers. The foreign help they need isn't technical, it's more the culture of how a big aerospace business is run.

 

The problem is you can point out to an engineer a better way to do something, or how something is wrong, and they instantly (if they're any good at all) recognize it and adopt it. However, they are often insular thinkers and need guidance to keep from going "too far down the rabbit hole" in their own areas and losing the bigger picture. In my experience, managers do NOT have that mentality and are only quick to accept credit and pass on blame. When you have a critical mass of management that isn't competent, the company falters, no matter how good the line workers are. There's a top-down problem of corruption and I think that's the root of their problem. When they get some good big-picture thinkers into enough management positions to both direct the company and have the respect of those below them (so that their commands are followed and everyone just doesn't do their own thing anyway), they will indeed be world class.