Iraqi air defenses in 1991?

[Stratos 3,192]

Have been around Iraq this weeks flying ODS, and I'm curious about teir land based air defenses. Anyone know which systems Iraq operated in 1991? If possible both AAA and SAMS.

 

Thanks!

[MigBuster 2,884]

They had a French designed IADS run by a computer system called KARI.(IRAK backwards)..........

 

The SA-2 was apparently SA-2F  / S-75M2 type.

 

There might be some changes from this old source (SA-7 was also used I have)

 

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by MigBuster

[Snailman 517]

A brief list with basic type designations. (Exact variants are unknown)

 

Source, http://chekist.ru/article/447

 

 

ПВО
До войны 1991г Ирак имел современную по тому времени систему ПВО (кодовое название Qari или Kari - обратное прочтение слова Iraq), созданную французскими специалистами. Вся страна была разделена на 5 районов, каждый из которых имел собственный центр управления, связанный подземными линиями связи с РЛС раннего предупреждения.
В настоящее время - штаб в Багдаде/Al-Muthanna; 4 районных центра ПВО - в Kirkuk (север), Kut al-Hayy (восток), al-Basra (юг), Ramadia (запад). Основные районы базирования ЗРК С-75, С-125 и "Квадрат " - Багдад, Мосул и Киркук (по Jane s - Amarah, Basrah, Najaf, Nasiriyah, Samawah и Tallil). В последние годы сообщалось о прокладке китайскими специалистами подземных волоконно-оптических кабелей для связи между различными элементами системы ПВО, а также о контрабанде ЗУР и запчастей для систем ПВО из КНДР. Сообщалось о наличии у Ирака чешской системы разведки и раннего предупреждения Tamara.
ЗРК
20-30 батарей (100-130 ПУ) С-75 "Двина " (SA-2 Guideline)
25-50 батарей (100-140 ПУ) С-125 "Нева " (SA-3 Goa)
3-4 ЗРК "Усовершенствованный Хок " (20-25 ПУ), захваченных в Кувейте (маловероятно, в любом случае они по-видимому не работоспособны)
25 батарей (36-55 по Jane s; 100 ПУ) 2К12 "Квадрат " (экспортная версия ЗРК "Куб "; SA-6 Gainful)
5 батарей (20 ПУ) 9К33 "Оса " (SA-8B Gecko)
? ПУ 9К31 "Стрела-1 " (SA-9 Gaskin)
30 ПУ 9К35 "Стрела-10 " (SA-13 Gopher)
" 55-65 ПУ "Роланд-1/2 " (100 по JCSS)
ПЗРК
400 9К32/9К32М "Стрела-2/2М " (SA-7 Grail)
? 9К34 "Стрела-3 " (SA-14 Gremlin)
? 9К310 "Игла-1 " (SA-16 Gimlet)
Зенитная артиллерия (6,000 по IISS, 2,000-3,000 по JCSS)
23мм:
ЗУ-23-2
ЗСУ-23-4 "Шилка " (Gun Dish)
37мм:
М-1939
спаренные М-1939
57мм:
С-60
ЗСУ-57-2
По IISS имеются также 85-, 100- и 130мм зенитные орудия.
РЛС
П-12 (Spoon Rest)
П-14 (Tall King)
П-15/П-18 (Flat Face)
П-15М (Squat Eye)
П-35/37 (Barlock)
Thin Scin
TRS-2215
TRS-2230
Thomson-CSF Volex III
В состав одного из радиолокационных комплексов, уничтоженных вертолётами "Апачи " в первые минуты войны 1991г входило 7 РЛС - по 2 П-12, П-15 и П-15М и 1 Troop Scatter.

[Snailman 517]

Same material, with maps and better format

 

http://www.waronline.org/mideast/iraq/airforce/

 

 

Another source with much more detail:

 

http://waroffline.org/index.php?showtopic=315

 

Appears more reliable. I can help with translation.

 

Also noted that Iraqi engineering has modified S-75M Volga (export Volhov M2, SA-2E ?) with improved mechanics for maneuverability (Like the soviets did with their 5Ya23, Volkhov M3) and also (maybe with chinese help?) also added IR seeking heads as well.

[Stratos 3,192]

Now those are great links for info! Thanks a lot, is time to read them deeply!

[Snailman 517]

Do you have plans on updating the ODS campaign? I guess it is fresh... seems Dave has updated it in 2016... It's time to  take a look

 

btw, there is a SAM update WIP so you might  get tools to use

[Stratos 3,192]

Do you have plans on updating the ODS campaign? I guess it is fresh... seems Dave has updated it in 2016... It's time to  take a look

 

btw, there is a SAM update WIP so you might  get tools to use

 

No, sorry but no time for modding anymore. But always been curious, will organize everything, print it and place it together with y books about that war. Is the same for aircraft variants operated by Iraqi Air Force, everyone knoe they had MiG-29's, MiG-21 and 23, etc. But which variants?

[MigBuster 2,884]

The MiG-29 was 9.12B

 

Have the MiG-21 variants if you want them?

[Stratos 3,192]

The MiG-29 was 9.12B

 

Have the MiG-21 variants if you want them?

 

No ECM or IFF on those Fulcrums? Poor guys!

 

I will love to read about Fishbed variants, and If you have some info regardng Floggers and Foxbats as well.

[MigBuster 2,884]

MiG-23BK / BN / MS / MF / ML 

 

MiG-21F-13 / PF / PFM / PFMA / MF / UTI / UM  (MiG-21bis delivered in 1983 but not present in 1991)

 

F-7B 

 

MiG-25P / PDS / RB

[JediMaster 451]

No ECM or IFF on those Fulcrums? Poor guys!

 

Any question as to why they ran for Iran and didn't engage?

[Stratos 3,192]

Is the same for the Fishbeds and the Floggers... no ECM, no IFF, no C&C, no GCI... thinking in all that they fought with what they have.

[3-A-305 178]

Mig-21bis was first delivered in Irak around '79. 47th and 37th sqd were already operational in '81. MF stop flying somewhere in the mid 80s. I don't think the bis saw too much action during DS

Main iraqi fighters those days where Mirages F1, Mig-23 (mainly MLs),mig-29 and Mig-25PD.

F-7B where never used in combat, just for training.
 

[MigBuster 2,884]

Mig-21bis was first delivered in Irak around '79. 47th and 37th sqd were already operational in '81. MF stop flying somewhere in the mid 80s. I don't think the bis saw too much action during DS

Main iraqi fighters those days where Mirages F1, Mig-23 (mainly MLs),mig-29 and Mig-25PD.

F-7B where never used in combat, just for training.

 

 

What sources are you using?

 

MiG-21s didn't see much action and 2 sources list the 2 x MiG-21s shot down as either bis or F-7B.

Edited April 18, 2016 by MigBuster

[MigBuster 2,884]

Is the same for the Fishbeds and the Floggers... no ECM, no IFF, no C&C, no GCI... thinking in all that they fought with what they have.

 

Mirage F-1s apparently carried effective Jamming pods vs Iran so may have had some capability in 1991

 

GCI and C&C was likely taken apart / jammed early on.

 

 

Even early MiGs had SRO-2 type IFF transponders and basic Sirena/SPO type RWR......thing is if they had them it doesn't mean they were all updated or able to pick up allied radar signals etc. 

The MiG-25s probably did have RWR because multiple accounts of engagements from the 80s to that period show them going defensive when locked up.

 

IFF is of limited use by itself.......... no response does not actually mean it's a bad guy.............you will note F-15s used it as part of an EID matrix they were not allowed to fire on IFF only.

[3-A-305 178]

We agree about Mig-21 didn´t see much action.

About downed F-7Bs, are you sure these were downed in the course of an action against enemy forces or simply shot down when flying to iran?

My source is basically a huge .doc file i've been compiling from many internet sources, forums, books, etc. Basically anything i've read about IrAF goes to that file...but hey! any new data or correction is always welcome!

[MigBuster 2,884]

We agree about Mig-21 didn´t see much action.

About downed F-7Bs, are you sure these were downed in the course of an action against enemy forces or simply shot down when flying to iran?

My source is basically a huge .doc file i've been compiling from many internet sources, forums, books, etc. Basically anything i've read about IrAF goes to that file...but hey! any new data or correction is always welcome!

 

2 were claimed by FA-18s on 17 Jan by VFA-81 (Fox/Mongillo ) 

 

ACIG list them as Bis although not updated for a while.......hopefully some newer research might shed more light.

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=62

 

This was a blog I'd saved with various sources listed so not verified.

http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/

Edited April 18, 2016 by MigBuster

[3-A-305 178]

Yeah I've heard about those 2 (i think there is also a gun camera recording of the event or something like that).

But those 21s weren't fighting, they were leaving irak, so at the end I keep thinking Mig-21 were not doing any fight at all in DS.

Thanks for the second list, I will sure take some time to read it and "cross check" with other data.

There is also another two by F-15s

 

6 Feb 1991 ZEREX 53 53 TFS/36 TFW Thomas "Vegas" Dietz F-15C 79-078 MiG-21 AIM-9M

 

6 Feb 1991 ZEREX 53 53 TFS/36 TFW Thomas "Vegas" Dietz F-15C 79-078 MiG-21 AIM-9M

 

 

I guess saying "Mig-21 did´t see much action during DS" was not exactly correct.... I mean, 4 of htem were shot down! quite some action isn't?!?!

What i really mean was they were not extensively used in combat operations, perhaps as decoys or SAM traps baits, but not much more...at least not in the way they were used in the war against Iran

Edited April 18, 2016 by 3-A-305

[JediMaster 451]

I remember seeing footage of Floggers taken down by F-15s by Sparrows, the Floggers never reacted. They just flew straight and level and were swatted out of the sky after the Eagles engaged from behind. They never knew they were under attack.

[Stratos 3,192]

That is what's shocking, I know about the soviet RWR, not perfect or as good as american ones but still useful enough, but no flares, no chaff, no ECM... IIRC there were som,e purgues after first gulf War, that will explain the noobiness of some Iraqi pilots? cause after 8 years of war some of them should have been veteran enough to at least engage defensive.

 

BTW, the Sparrow shoots were in BVR?

[MigBuster 2,884]

That is what's shocking, I know about the soviet RWR, not perfect or as good as american ones but still useful enough, but no flares, no chaff, no ECM... IIRC there were som,e purgues after first gulf War, that will explain the noobiness of some Iraqi pilots? cause after 8 years of war some of them should have been veteran enough to at least engage defensive.

 

BTW, the Sparrow shoots were in BVR?

Some were BVR yes and some accounts do give range (<12 miles). There are some sources that claim certain number of BVR kills but not certain where they have obtained the actual firing ranges from.

I guess saying "Mig-21 did´t see much action during DS" was not exactly correct.... I mean, 4 of htem were shot down! quite some action isn't?!?!

What i really mean was they were not extensively used in combat operations, perhaps as decoys or SAM traps baits, but not much more...at least not in the way they were used in the war against Iran

 

The two downed on the 17th (the first day of Desert Storm) were attacking a large US formation head on when they got taken out..........the Iraqi air force were not quite ready to run just yet.

 

 https://ospreypublishing.com/mikoyan-gurevich-mig-21

 

https://ospreypublishing.com/arab-mig-19-mig-21-units-in-combat-pb

Edited April 19, 2016 by MigBuster

[MigBuster 2,884]

That is what's shocking, I know about the soviet RWR, not perfect or as good as american ones but still useful enough, but no flares, no chaff, no ECM... IIRC there were som,e purgues after first gulf War, that will explain the noobiness of some Iraqi pilots? cause after 8 years of war some of them should have been veteran enough to at least engage defensive.

 

 

 

 

The MiG-25s most certainly did have flares and were used to great effect in one encounter with F-15Cs.....there is a chance several Iraqi types did have countermeasures but this is quite detailed information I have yet to see much about.

 

There are some examples of ECM and chaff use here:

 

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=247&Itemid=47

 

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=249&Itemid=47

 

 

 

Several Iraqis did engage defensive.......most likely never got the opportunity though. This had nothing to do with the individual pilots and everything to do with having little to no situational awareness, they were totally outnumbered, and the equipment they had was mostly no match for the technology and tactics they were up against.

Edited April 19, 2016 by MigBuster

[Stratos 3,192]

The fascinating part of that war is that is the only late Cold War engagement including air, land and sea battles in a big scale. Simulating that war is a real fun scenario, specially since we can buff up Iraqi air force and air defenses so is more a match for coallition forces.

 

DCS will be a great way to refight the war, but no terrain and we lack many planes, SAM's and AAA. (slowly improving like incoming F-14, AvB8...)

 

BMS also nice, there's a theatre that can be updated to work on 4.33, have all planes and good avionics for the Viper, the Hornet and the Eagle, have other flyables as well, like A10, Tonka...

 

SF2 terrain, planes and objects are there, we lack avionics.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Stratos

[Stratos 3,192]

Anyone know where the coallition planes were based during Desert Shield and Desert Storm? Cannot find a graphic for that.

[JediMaster 451]

No map, but this has a fairly comprehensive list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_United_States_Air_Force_Units_in_the_Gulf_War

 

Generally speaking there weren't any bases that had coalition planes but NOT US planes that I can recall.