A Different ME 262 Scenario Suggestion

[RIBob 39]

 We all understand that the Me 262 was a superb aircraft at high altitudes.  However, its' weak point was on the ground, and taking off and landing.  To that end, the Luftwaffe instituted strict dispersal/camouflage procedures on-ground, and also instituted procedures for various piston-engine aircraft to "cover' the take-off/landing of the Me 262s.

So, how about a landing/takeoff scenario at an Me 262 base?  This would involve the 262s trying to land/take off, the "covering" force of piston engine aircraft, and Allied aircraft attacking the base and landing/taking off 262s.  Allied aircraft get bonus points for 262s destroyed, in addition to 'covering' aircraft.   Maybe two different scenarios: landing and taking off.

I understand that this would be a very demanding scenario, utilizing the in-game AI for purposes for which it was never originally intended.  

Even so, a question unasked is never answered.

Submitted for discussion

Edited January 19, 2019 by RIBob

[Sky High 166]

I wouldn't have the knowledge to even guess whether this might be possible. Other regular visitors would know better. 

Modred is in the process of developing an updated Aces Over Europe addon. Would your purported scenario, if doable, have any application with it?

[RIBob 39]

7 hours ago, Sky High said:

I wouldn't have the knowledge to even guess whether this might be possible. Other regular visitors would know better. 

Modred is in the process of developing an updated Aces Over Europe addon. Would your purported scenario, if doable, have any application with it?

Like you, I don't know if this proposed scenario is possible to accomplish in any existing platform, or at least platforms that have not been specifically designed to do so.  It's just a proposal, and intended to see if anyone knows if it is possible.   

It's unknown if anyone has attempted this type of scenario before, but someone, somewhere, must have designed a game one of whose scenarios was a "beat-up" of an enemy air base.  With that in hand, perhaps some flying aircraft could be AI controlled, partly piston-engine "covering" fighters, and partly landing/taking off 262s.  For that matter, the AI could control the attacking aircraft, and the player control one of the defending aircraft, or even one of the 262s.  So, perhaps it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the abovementioned scenario could be constructed.

[Jel 37]

In 160 we have these ini settings

EnemyEncounter=1
FriendlyEncounter=0

If EnemyEncounter is set to a high value then flying close to an enemy base can spawn a scramble take-off of enemy fighters.

I think that the type relates to squadron files which reference the base, but maybe the code could be adapted.
I need to look at it to check the values which are used.

[Jel 37]

A test with a sweep to Chaumont:

Just approaching the French coast:

Flew over a coastal airfield and the enemy scrambled:

[Sky High 166]

What a great AI is built into this game.

[RIBob 39]

So, it would seem that at least part of the puzzle is in place.  The question is: Are the other necessary pieces also there?  For example, if coming sufficiently near an air base will "trigger" a scramble of aircraft from that base (or any others nearby), will the AI command the scrambled aircraft to attack the intruders who will remain nearby while beating up the base?

Given what I know at this point, and that is probably not enough, then a possible way to re-create a scenario like the one I originally proposed is to have the intruders overfly a base with piston-engine aircraft on their way to the Me 262 base.  If the base for the German piston-engine aircraft is sufficiently far from the 262 base, the German aircraft will have enough time to gain altitude (not much is needed) and hopefully attack the intruders trying to kill the 262s just taking off.   It would be nice to have in-the-air Germans trying to interdict the intruders when the 262s were attempting to land, but perhaps that is asking too much.

So, is the aforementioned scenario a possibility?

 

[MarkEAW 63]

Hey RIBob,

Jel ran with your idea and made some changes at SimHQ if you visit there anymore to read them, but others might want a follow-up.

Bouncing the 262s

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4458162/bouncing-the-262s#Post4458162

and he split the thread off also into a 2nd thread

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4458882/160-enemy-encounter-download#Post4458882

As for your last questions, I don't know if they are answered there or not, I don't follow the changes as hard as I tried. (confusing).

[Jel 37]

By adapting the "enemy encounter" code I made it possible for an allied pilot to catch 262s as they take off. The concept has been extended so that a friendly pilot can set any enemy plane to "bounce", or have a random selection.
This adds a new dimension to EAW gameplay, because in normal single missions the enemy aircraft are always in the air when contact is made.
Other enemy planes can be set as enemy primary and enemy secondary planes to cover the ones taking off, and they will be in the air when the target is reached.

What I cannot do is to set up a situation where the enemy planes are landing, which is what RIBob appears to be asking in his very last question.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Jel

[MarkEAW 63]

okay. That sheds some light on it. However the screen shots you provided (on SimHQ) don't really explain much, It just seemed confusing to use, unless you know all the details about on how to use it.

It also could be me rushing to review it for intake, as I like stuff in text form rather than screen shots.

Sorry not being realy helpfull here, I've been away from EAW for too long this last time.

[Jel 37]

How to do the bounce

Download the latest 160 exes from here as a 7-zip self installer:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gf7u7si5sia6izz/EAWVersions30Jan2019.exe/file

Run the 7-zip installer in your 160 folder and it will add the latest exes to your "EAW Versions" folder.

Run the "PlaneSetExeTheatreSwitchV3.exe" and select one of the new exes, select the "10-ETO default" planeset and the "00-Default ETO Theatre".
Run EAW, select a single mission and set up a Spitfire IXc Merlin66 in a fighter sweep like this:

Note that in red at the top the "Bf 110C-4" was set as the encounter plane.

This was done by selecting it as the enemy secondary plane, then clicking "HERE" at the top.
When that had been done I changed the enemy secondary to "Do not select".

 

Flying the mission I pressed "E" to locate the airfield

I flew over it and kept checking in 6 o'clock view.
A warning appeared about unidentified aircraft:

Turning, and clicking "T" picked up one of the 110s

Once you feel OK with this then you can experiment, with AI planes and different targets.
To get 262s you will need to fly 1945 missions.
You can set the enemy encounter plane as "Random".
The key to the whole process it selecting the enemy secondary plane and "CLICK HERE"

 

 

 

 

[RIBob 39]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 8:01 AM, Jel said:

How to do the bounce

Download the latest 160 exes from here as a 7-zip self installer:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gf7u7si5sia6izz/EAWVersions30Jan2019.exe/file

Run the 7-zip installer in your 160 folder and it will add the latest exes to your "EAW Versions" folder.

Run the "PlaneSetExeTheatreSwitchV3.exe" and select one of the new exes, select the "10-ETO default" planeset and the "00-Default ETO Theatre".
Run EAW, select a single mission and set up a Spitfire IXc Merlin66 in a fighter sweep like this:

Note that in red at the top the "Bf 110C-4" was set as the encounter plane.

This was done by selecting it as the enemy secondary plane, then clicking "HERE" at the top.
When that had been done I changed the enemy secondary to "Do not select".

 

Flying the mission I pressed "E" to locate the airfield

I flew over it and kept checking in 6 o'clock view.
A warning appeared about unidentified aircraft:

Turning, and clicking "T" picked up one of the 110s

Once you feel OK with this then you can experiment, with AI planes and different targets.
To get 262s you will need to fly 1945 missions.
You can set the enemy encounter plane as "Random".
The key to the whole process it selecting the enemy secondary plane and "CLICK HERE"

 

 

 

 

That's an interesting--and clever-- way to go about it, and as regards my original suggestion in first post, I will take 1/3 of a loaf instead of nothing at all.  Some experimentation will need to be done so that it can be determined if the 262s behaved as they did in real life or not.  That aspect will be of critical importance to the realism of the scenario. 

As I understand it, the Allies discovered that the 262s were highly vulnerable on take off and landing, so they detailed certain numbers of fighters to catch them whilst doing so.  The Germans attempted to counter this by running CAPs of piston engine fighters around the 262 bases to interfere with the Allied planes trying to attack the 262s in their most vulnerable state.  Naturally, the ground-based AAA was strengthened considerably, possibly beyond that which was usually encountered at other air bases.

So, perhaps what can be accomplished in order to to approach a 2/3 loaf of my scenario posted above would be to overfly a base of piston-engine fighters en route to the 262 base, have the piston engine fighters trail after the Allied attackers, and attack them while they are attacking the 262 base. 

It's a pity that a 262 landing scenario is not in the offing, as in that instance, they were throttling back with flaps/gear down, whereas in takeoff, they were throttling up, albeit with flaps and gear deployed.  There are other important differences, too.  In landing, the aircraft has to line up with the runway sooner or later, whilst immediately after takeoff, the aircraft can diverge from the runway axis fairly quickly.   Presumably, in a take-off scenario, the 262s became more rapidly able to defend themselves than in a landing scenario.  Put conversely, during landing, the 262s became vulnerable sooner, and longer.   We will have to see how accurate the flight model is for the 262, particularly at low speeds, and whether or not the very slow throttle movement required by the 262 engines is depicted accurately.

Is there any way to modify the FM of the AI 262 aircraft, particularly at low speeds, or perhaps for a certain time period after it has spawned and subsequent to its' taking off?  That might be a 'work-around'.  Any way to replicate the notoriously slow rate of engine speed increase/decrease?  If it is not possible to manipulate the FM of the slow-flying 262, would it be possible to "dumb down" the AI of the 262 pilot (NOT the piston engine fighter pilots), at least temporarily?

As an historical side-note, one of the delays in fielding the 262 was caused by the necessity to slowly rev up the engines to max before take-off.  The original tail-dragger version would set the asphalt runway on fire, or at least melt it before the engines reached sufficient power (revs) for take-off; the concrete runways would be scorched.  Indeed, photo-recon pix of early 262 testing airfields showed such "burned/melted/scorched" spots, and alerted analysts that something was up.  As an aside, I can say that abrupt manipulation of the throttles of a Horten aircraft (same engines as in the 262) in IL-2 1946 game will definitely cause one or both engines to catch fire. 

Also, can the AAA fire at the 262 base be controlled by the gamer?  One would presume that AAA would be unusually dense around such bases.  Might be nice if the AAA could be dialed up or down. 

At any rate, thank you very much for looking into this matter.  I certainly do appreciate it, and perhaps the recognition of this feature latent within the game will cause other people to come forth with other interesting scenarios.

I wonder what other features within the game await future exploitation.

[rotton50 19]

14 hours ago, RIBob said:

Is there any way to modify the FM of the AI 262 aircraft, particularly at low speeds, or perhaps for a certain time period after it has spawned and subsequent to its' taking off?  That might be a 'work-around'.  Any way to replicate the notoriously slow rate of engine speed increase/decrease?

The jets in EAW already have a much slower throttle response rate than piston engine planes. There is some room in the flight model to slow it down even more but personally, I think the original designers got it right. I have the tools to do the editing and I'd be happy to share them with anyone who wants to get involved.

14 hours ago, RIBob said:

As an historical side-note, one of the delays in fielding the 262 was caused by the necessity to slowly rev up the engines to max before take-off.  The original tail-dragger version would set the asphalt runway on fire, or at least melt it before the engines reached sufficient power (revs) for take-off; the concrete runways would be scorched.

The warm up period for the jet engine planes is already much longer than the piston engine ones. It's been "baked in" since the beginning of EAW.

Also, though Mr. Jelly is an EAW programming genius I'm not sure he can set an airfield afire. Of course, I shouldn't say that, he may take it as a challenge. :-)

14 hours ago, RIBob said:

Also, can the AAA fire at the 262 base be controlled by the gamer?  One would presume that AAA would be unusually dense around such bases.  Might be nice if the AAA could be dialed up or down.

Try the ETO2015 target set. There is a huge increase in airfield AA among a million other things, including all sorts of aircraft lined up at the fields.

FWIW, the AA can be adjusted for caliber, range and firing rate. There was a thread no too long ago over at SimHQ as to how to go about adjusting them. If you can't find that thread, let me know and I'll post the procedure here.

[VonBeerhofen 63]

Hi RiBob,

Exceptions like the one you describe can be created freely in the EAW.EXE, however those exceptions stick when the 262 is reslotted with another plane. The exception may relate to the behaviour of Jet engines or more specifically to the 262 slot in EAW and could pose a problem when the same EXE is used in another scenario with another plane in the slot. The Jet engine isn't so much of a problem but slotspecific calls can be.

EAWPRO has got an additional flame effect when the 262 engines start, they don't really set the asphalt burning though but mimics the effect. The flightmodels can be changed in that it's more cumbersome and will take more time for planes to take off, however in EAWPRO flightmodels use accurate data for plane weight, engine power and all the rest which result in the flightmodel behaviour.

Our group discusses any tweaks to be made but the weight is more on balanced fights then take off or landing behaviour. There is no seperate flightmodel for those and creating exceptions just for the 262 slot or Jet engines may not work out very well in various addons when the same EAW.EXE is used for them. As such it's a kind of balancing act in what's more important and what is feasable.

AAA action can be controlled when setting up the mission parameters, it can be low, medium or heavy. Experiment with the various settings in the Mission Parameter window, there's a lot there which can have a profound influence on the game, like skill level, enemy activity, etc.

VonBeerhofen

Edited February 5, 2019 by VonBeerhofen

[Jel 37]

In addition to the mission parameters settings there are more settings that can be used in 160, some going back as far as 1.28a.

In the "eaw.ini" file there are settings for flak accuracy and rate of fire:

KeyboardLanguage=0
FlakAccuracy=2
FlakRof=2
HudFontSize=1

These settings apply to the heavy AAA, but there are settings for the light AA and small arms fire which are read from a "FlakData.mpf" file.
They cover gun calibre, duration and rate of fire:

            if (fd = Copen("FlakData.mpf", O_RDONLY | O_BINARY) != -1)
            {
                fp = fopen(RealFilename, "r");
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &LightAAACaliber);
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &LightAAADuration);
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &LightAAArof);
                
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &SmalAAACaliber);
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &SmalAAADuration);
                fscanf(fp, "%d\n", &SmalAAArof);
                fclose(fp);
            }
            else
            {
                LightAAACaliber = 12;
                LightAAADuration = 240;
                LightAAArof = 13;
                SmalAAACaliber = 5;
                SmalAAADuration = 160;
                SmalAAArof = 15;
            }

If  the file is not present then the default values of 12, 240, 13, 5, 160 and 15 are used.

"FlakData.mpf" can be read from a theatre folder. It is a text file with the "mpf" extender so it is easily made using notepad as "FlakData.txt" and then the filename can be edited to make it "FlakData.mpf".

Ray used one for SPAW which reads as follows:

2
140
10
2
190
20

So by combining the eaw.ini setting with a "FlakData.mpf" file some very serious enemy fire can be generated.

This has prompted me to consider making a new exe which reads a "FlakData.mpf" file with two extra values for the heavy AAA settings that are in the "eaw.ini", and ignore the ini settings.

That would enable the player to just set up the "FlakData.mpf" file with all the settings in the one file

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jel

[Jel 37]

So I made a new exe, and a new utility.

The new exe also reads the heavy flak data from the  "FlakData.mpf" file, which has two additional entries.
This makes for easier editing as only one file is involved, and to do this I made the utility which saves the  "FlakData.mpf" file.
The utility displays the default values to give the user some idea of the sizes involved.

There is virtually no documentation re- the appropriate values for the heavy flak accuracy and rate of fire, so I used the utility to change these values and flew an escort mission to Calais
Accuracy 0   ROF 40

Accuracy 3   ROF 40

Accuracy 5   ROF 4

Accuracy 10   ROF 1

Rate of fire was self evident. It needs to be at least 1 as 0 will cause a CTD.
Accuracy can be 0 and as it increases the flak bursts group together more and more. Having a value of 10 just about puts them all together, creating a straight line effect of flak-burst groups as you can see in the last screenie.
The source code is using a "bitwise" shift and there may be another way which would create a wider range of possibilities

[rotton50 19]

Couple of things.

1 - The 1.6 series is not slot specific so we can actually have actions specific to one plane. For instance, we recently added a long smoke trail to the Me163 to simulate the rocket exhaust that we've all seen in videos. This ability makes for a nice improvement in variety. Same goes for engine sounds and gunsight sprites. We can assign over 100 different sets of sounds for everything from WWI rotaries to WWII jets and each plane can have an historically correct gunsight.

2 - Indeed I did a lot of work on the AA for SPAW. Generally I found that the default flak was way too accurate so if I put a lot of AA guns on the ships the players couldn't complete a mission.

Now, I did want a lot of flak splashes and "bings" against the plane when on a torpedo run but I still wanted a better than 50-50 shot at surviving. What I was able to do was give the guns less power yet still have a fairly high ROF. Combining these numbers with a vast increase in the number of guns on the ships and doing a lot of testing, I ended up with some decent aural and visual immersion for the players.

[VonBeerhofen 63]

Since I started flying EAW in Januari 2000 flackrate or accuracy has never been an issue for me or anyone who've flown EAW online in the Launchpad.  Accuracy and rate are controlled by random values resulting in a lot of variance depending on the selection made in the Mission Parameter screen. Sometimes it's dense and sometimes not, fact is that as in real missions you will not know what you will encounter untill you're right in the middle of it. When dense it's ill adviced to fly straight and level, or as low as flack can aim, their accuracy improves with lesser distance. Like true flack you can also fly just below the flack treshold and it won't cause any damage.

It's very rare to loose planes in misions, even when flying closed formations but it can occasionally happen. My personal estimate of v1.2 is a survival chance of app. 90%, in EAWPRO the chances are lower as there are on average about 4 to 8 times more flackpositions depending on the target location's of flack capable positions, which will move around to other locations when destroyed. When these target locations are very close together the grouping of flack automattically becomes more dense and more dispersed when further apart, as in real battles. I'd rate the average chance of survival in EAWPRO at app. 60-75% depending on the target. Both averages are with the heaviest AAA setting in the Mission parameter screen and there are two lower settings under user control which will Improve the player's survival chance.

It's ofcourse always possible to sustain a direct hit, which is unfortunate but to all intend and purposes very realistic and never resulted in any complaints from the people I've flown with, not even after the offline routines were made to work online too. I don't see it as wrong to gain more control over the flack parameters but I do not agree with your assessment of survival chances.

VonBeerhofen

Edited February 8, 2019 by VonBeerhofen

[Jel 37]

Ray was correct about survival chances. However, it was not a general statement, but one specific to having to fly below 100 feet and below 150 mph in a straight line to release a torpedo in SPAW.

The targets were invariably in a convoy of well armed ships and the fire was intense. His adjustments made it much better. There is a lot of small AAA fire, but fewer hits.

[rotton50 19]

Apples and oranges.

I was referring to light and medium AA, You are referring to heavy AA.

Also, I don't agree with your observations on heavy AA but we're work in very different environments so there no point continuing the discussion. You do you.

The problem for scenarios producers like me is that we strive to make our virtual world as much like the real world within the limitations imposed by programming.

So, for instance, my first attempt at target improvement was done way back when we only had 70 ground models (TMODs) to work with. I loaded up all the major target sites with all sorts of AA, among other things, and was then forced to remove most of them because of overkill. Live and learn.

It took the release of the source code and the efforts of some fine amateur programmers to get us where we are today. Which is the ability to have 4000 ground models and AA active on any of them.

Of course, scenario producers still have to be careful not to overdo the AA. The release of the utilities to modify the AA functions helps greatly with this. It still takes some trail and error but way less than before. We lived and learned.

 

 

[RIBob 39]

Is it possible to control the emplacement of AAA guns directly?  In other words, can the player select where and what types will be located?

I mention this in relation to a 262 landing/takeoff scenario (outlined above) in that the AAA guns would presumably have been sited in addition to the airbase proper, in areas outside the airbase  in order to deter Allied aircraft from attacking 262s on their landing approach, and just after takeoff.  Naturally, such locations would have light and medium caliber flak guns, heavy caliber flak being inappropriate for such a task.

Perhaps it might be possible to site particular (ground) AAA/flak units in such locations.  Naturally, I have no idea if this is possible but perhaps it is not impossible.  After all, if one can control the type/density/ROF/accuracy of AAA fire, it seems not unreasonable to be able to control where such fire might originate.

[rotton50 19]

There is a way to edit the number of AA sites at airfields using Mr. Jelly's target editor and it's been done.

Try scenario ETO2015 in the 1.6 series.

I think you'll find you wish you brought an extra flak jacket when you are assigned to attack an airfield.

Stay fast and jink, especially AFTER you fly over the field. The gunners are DEADLY shooting from behind.

[VonBeerhofen 63]

In EAWPRO it's easiest to control Flack and AAA capabillity by editing the hitbubble table and asign this capabillity to any object. Besides that it can be asigned to a target as Rotton describes too, however it requires specialised knowledge on how to control it properly and isn't for the faint hearted.

Editing the hitbubble table is reasonably simple and can be done directly in the eaw.exe by means of a hex editor or by loading a .LDR scriptfile which can also be edited the same way. No extra tools are necessary for editing either but .LDR's make things more versatile as various scripts can be created and activated at will.

The kill ratio of AAA is directly linked to the number of AAA positions, for light additionally the distance to these positions also have a big influence, the closer you are the better their aim.

VBH

[rotton50 19]

Or...................

Players could use the full suite of editing tools that Mr. Jelly has produced to edit the targets and the individual ground models thus bypassing the need to learn hexediting.

All they have to do is ask and the tools will be provided, along with instructions and real time assistance.

And added benefit is that each target and ground model has it's own file set so when completed a player can share the finished product with others.

[VonBeerhofen 63]

I wouldn't advice anyone to use Jel's target editor, it has a steep learning curve not only to learn how to edit the targets and place objects but also because of the relation between various files like tardata.dat, targets.dat and airfield.dat etc. We both know it would require at least several months to even start grasping how things work. Ofcourse anyone is welcome to give it a try but I've seen many give up.

The hitbubble table is a much easier thing to edit and easily explained too. With a few notes it would probably take a week or so to understand how to edit it in a hexeditor or with one of Jel's tools. The question is wether it would result in interesting improvements as much time was already invested into getting the most out of it in EAWPRO.

Personally I believe that various theatres will have enough diversity to keep people interested without saddling them up with learning what you and I learned. To RiBob I can only say that there's nothing easy in EAW except perhaps loading a complete addon/theatre and you don't want to spend years of your life to figure it all out if you're not totally committed to doing so.

VBH