ARM lock-on

[Foo Fighter 0]

Sorry if this was covered before (I already did a search). Got WOV and flying Wild Weasel missions with the 105G. The problem is that the ARM missiles don't acquire the target, even when I'm being painted like crazy. I read here somewhere that if the target has been selected (red square) the ARMs lock-on automatically it just takes a while. Tried that-didn't work. Tried different radar settings (even though ARMs don't need outgoing radar info) too. I understand that there is no tone but there must be an indicator on the instrument panel somewhere showing acquisiton. How do you get acquisition in the first place? Please help before I sail my computer out the window!

Edited September 15, 2005 by Foo Fighter

[Guest Saganuay82]

I have had the G up over North Vietnam and sometimes have just lobbed one in. It would fly straight then you could see it turning toward a radar and then WHAMMO.

[Fubar512 1,350]

I have had the G up over North Vietnam and sometimes have just lobbed one in.  It would fly straight then you could see it turning toward a radar and then WHAMMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The indicator that shows you target bearing, and threat level, is the RHAW scope (it was not referred to as an RWR display until after the Vietnam War).

[Foo Fighter 0]

No WHAMMO! yet but I'll keep trying.

[Foo Fighter 0]

I've also posted this at SimHQ:

 

First let me say that the guys that did this for real must have had big hairy brass stones. As I fly the missions in this simulator I often wonder about the hell they must have gone through.

 

After much hair pulling and tantrum throwing I think I finally figured it out. For those having the same problem (assuming your flying the 105G):

 

1.You have to be pointed in the general direction of the enemy radar before firing and watch the Radar Homing And Warning - small screen upper right instrument panel.

 

2.When the enemy radar is turned on (slow beeping) a slow flashing blip will appear somewhere on the RHAW (there may be more than one indicating multiple radars). At this point your ARMs may or may not acquire the target if you fire. Sometimes they'll hit, sometimes they won't.

 

3.Enemy radar has a lock on you (rapid beeping). Look at the small circle in the center of the RHAW and there should be a rapid flashing blip there now (again there may be more than one). The blip(s) will be close to the inside perimeter of the circle indicating the direction of the threat. You may have to look closely if there are multiple targets as they tend to blend together. If you cap an ARM off now the odds are pretty good that you'll get a kill.

 

4.If there are radars close together sometimes the missile may get confused. I've watched missiles acquire and fly towards a target, get in between two radars then go nuts and slam into the ground.

 

Mind you, this is not a 100% guarantee that you will hit your target. I have had perfect set ups and fired only to watch the missile nose dive after launch and take out vacant real estate. Good luck I hope this helps.

[eightlein 10]

I've also posted this at SimHQ:

 

First let me say that the guys that did this for real must have had big hairy brass stones. As I fly the missions in this simulator I often wonder about the hell they must have gone through.

 

After much hair pulling and tantrum throwing I think I finally figured it out. For those having the same problem (assuming your flying the 105G):

 

1.You have to be pointed in the general direction of the enemy radar before firing and watch the Radar Homing And Warning - small screen upper right instrument panel.

 

2.When the enemy radar is turned on (slow beeping) a slow flashing blip will appear somewhere on the RHAW (there may be more than one indicating multiple radars). At this point your ARMs may or may not acquire the target if you fire. Sometimes they'll hit, sometimes they won't.

 

3.Enemy radar has a lock on you (rapid beeping). Look at the small circle in the center of the RHAW and there should be a rapid flashing blip there now (again there may be more than one). The blip(s) will be close to the inside perimeter of the circle indicating the direction of the threat. You may have to look closely if there are multiple targets as they tend to blend together. If you cap an ARM off now the odds are pretty good that you'll get a kill.

 

4.If there are radars close together sometimes the missile may get confused. I've watched missiles acquire and fly towards a target, get in between two radars then go nuts and slam into the ground.

 

Mind you, this is not a 100% guarantee that you will hit your target. I have had perfect set ups and fired only to watch the missile nose dive after launch and take out vacant real estate. Good luck I hope this helps.

 

Your explanation is right on. FYI, I have had some pretty good luck getting hits by getting fast and low bout 100 AGL and holding off til just under 10 miles out. But by the same token I am giving AAA a better shot at me so get in there at least at 400knots, and fry the chickens in the barnyard!!!

[LeadZeppelin 0]

Hello fellow Weasels

 

I am reviving this pretty old topic a bit. I also have problems getting hits on SAM radars with the F-105G, both with the Shrike and the standard ARM. I have been following the procedure as told above and getting better results with the Shrike now, however I still have no luck (or clue) with the ARM. I have one question here. Does it make a difference if you are in a dive or should I rather fly level? I found out that I am mostly in a dive and the missiles tend to slam into the ground short of the target. Now here is another thing. After some frustrating 105-G missions I downloaded the F-4G from column5. Beautifully done, and of course not realistic to go downtown with but I had a lot more succes with the Shrikes here. I had no ARM loaded, is also not possible I think. Anyhow, the Shrike should be the same as the one you load on an F-105G. Does anybody have a clue and/or hints how the perfect the AR missiles firing in WOV?

Thanks

[+Typhoid 231]

Hello fellow Weasels

 

I am reviving this pretty old topic a bit. I also have problems getting hits on SAM radars with the F-105G, both with the Shrike and the standard ARM. I have been following the procedure as told above and getting better results with the Shrike now, however I still have no luck (or clue) with the ARM. I have one question here. Does it make a difference if you are in a dive or should I rather fly level? I found out that I am mostly in a dive and the missiles tend to slam into the ground short of the target. Now here is another thing. After some frustrating 105-G missions I downloaded the F-4G from column5. Beautifully done, and of course not realistic to go downtown with but I had a lot more succes with the Shrikes here. I had no ARM loaded, is also not possible I think. Anyhow, the Shrike should be the same as the one you load on an F-105G. Does anybody have a clue and/or hints how the perfect the AR missiles firing in WOV?

Thanks

 

 

I'm not sure of the distinction you all are making between a Shrike and an ARM. The Shrike is an ARM.

 

For any ARM, it has to lock onto the appropriate radar. The radar being the key. What I have done in the sim is to use the ground target select function to select the specific radar or radar equipped AAA/SAM that you want to take out and also do all of the above wrt to pointing at it, in range, etc. Depending on the ARM that you are shooting, watch the range and geometry of the shot.

 

works pretty well.

 

I have a lot of friends who flew these missions for real and exercise and I controlled a lot of them. Very much a "high intensity" mission with a high probability of getting your @$$ shot down.

[MigBuster 2,884]

If you have a SAM radar flashing on your RHAW scope then turn towards it select whatever ARM you have and then fire - though this doesnt guarantee you will hit the intended radar site. For some reason I had better luck with the Shrike A than the B or the Standard ARM.

If you are close to the site it usually doesn't obtain a lock - without a RHAW like the early Skyhawks you have to spot SAM launches and then nose up a bit then fire - then prey! Taking 2 ARM's rarely results in 2 hits - you have to use cluster bombs / rockets/gun for most radars.

[LeadZeppelin 0]

Thanks guys for your comments

 

Typhoid: I know that the Shrike and the Standard ARM are bots ARMS, however I understand that the standard ARM acquires the target and has memory so that it continues on to the target radar site even if these guys on the ground switch the set off, is that correct. Now I think what you mean is that there is no difference in launching both types, although I seem to have read somewhere that the Standard ARM was better in acquiring a target even when not exactly in the 12 o'clock position?

 

CoolHand29: when you say "…and then nose up a bit then fire …." Is that what bunyap is talking about in the Weapons Delivery Manual under Anti Radiation Missiles (pg. 80)…"The original mode of operation was to send the Shrike on a lofted trajectory (for maximum range) towards a suspected SAM site. As soon as the missile had passed its peak altitude and started to come down, its seeker would detect the site's radar emission and home on it."….?

 

Anyhow, this is interesting stuff.

 

Thanks again

[Southernap 1]

LZ,

 

In real life the Standard ARM did have better electronics so if the missile was launched early enough and the bad guys did shut down the radar site then its onboard brain would still guide the missile in the same path that it last detected the signal in the hope that the bad guys would turn on the radar again so the missile could try and guide. If not then after a certain time period it would detonate its warhead. That along with the improved range (something on the order of 25-30nm)of the Standard ARM versus the Shrike was what made it the steller ARM until the arrival of of the HARM missile in the mid-80's. Also the Standard ARM seaker was designed to go seek a whole range of radio frequencies and not just one specific one.

In the game world the only advantage that I have noticed with the Standard ARM was that it was able to fly a little further then the Shrike and it had a slightly better ability to guide towards off launch bearing targets.

 

In real life the Shrike ARM was basically a series of the AIM-7C Sparrow III airframes that were modified to carry a guidance package for the "Fan Song" missile guidance radar for the SA-2 missile. The optimum way to achieve its maximum engagement range of something like 10nm was for the launching aircraft pitch up to about 15 to 20 degrees nose up and launch the missile that way. It was designed to fly in a ballistic arc to the target and on the downward half of the arc the seeker would acquire the radar's emissions and guide the missile to its target. Think of it similar to shooting a basketball into a hoop, the hoop, even if the ball lands on the rim it still has a pretty good chance of spinning around a couple of times before falling in for the score. If the Shrike lose the signal at any time except for the last 50-100 yards to the target then the missile would go dumb and dive straight for the ground even if it picked the radar again. Also the Shrike's seeker couldn't see outside of a 15deg arc infront of it. So you had to be facing and flying right into the radar site for the missile to acquire. Finally the other major problem with the Shrike was that its seaker was tuned to acquire a certain radar's frequency. So if you had multiple threats then you had to either carry multiple Shrikes and know which was which or have additional aircraft in your strike package each one going after a different SAM site with a different Shrike.

In the game again except for the shorter range I have not noticed some of these same limitations with Shrike.

 

Finally, from talking to family friends who use to fly the A-6B Intruder in Iron Hand missions during Linebacker I and II. THey told me that you really didn't have an audio or visual shooting cue all the time when using either ARM and that although the B/N would try to use software in his half of the cockpit to try and help the Standard ARM to acquire and offending site, it was more up to the pilot to fly into the teeth of the defenses so that the offending site was the one that was strongest signal being detected and then just shove a missile down thier throats when the B/N felt they were in range.

[+Typhoid 231]

pretty close. I didn't fly with these but I briefed with and controlled the missions. Several of my good friends flew these missions and shot various targets. One of my good buds won a Silver Star and Air Medal (as he described it, the Brown Shorts award with 24 Oak Leaf Clusters) and another shot an SA6 in Kosovo that had previously shot down an F-16.

 

there is a substantial difference between the sim and real life. In real life they pilot or BN did have a system to display the ARM seeker lockon prior to launch - if and when they got a lock. With the HARM especially, the system would display the radar parameters locked on. Note that these are signal parameters and not geo coordinates or even target name. Just the radar name and parameters. In the E2C, I could cross check and provide cross bearings for a target so we could determine range in some tactical situations.

 

In the Iron Hand (USN) or Wild Weasel (USAF) missions they would shut down the opposition as they came up or, depending on the situation, might pre-empt with a loft of the Shrike into the expected target location as the strike group ingressed.

 

so all of the examples used above were used for real depending on the tactical situation.

 

in the sim it doesnt' work quite like that because you do not have an ARM display telling you what the Shrike, Standard ARM or HARM is tracking. You do have the RWR giving you a bearing and signal strength which is close. But you cannot select your target off of that. what I have found does work is doing all the described actions above AND use the ground target select function to cycle through to the target you want. It does have to be a radar target, not a launcher or gun without a radar. Then the ARM will usually acquire and guide on the target.

[LeadZeppelin 0]

Getting better results now with the Shrike. Use RWR, fly with the target radar set in the 12 o'clock position, and most of all I fly level and a little bit nose up, instead of diving, "lofting" the Shrike so that it gently goes balistic by itself, homing in on the active radar and "Whammo" as somebody mentioned earlier in this forüm. This really works and they mostly hit now; some hit the ground. No luck still with the standard ARM, but with a little practice this should work as well soon.

Edited February 25, 2007 by LeadZeppelin