VonS and a Bleriot XI

[+swambast 723]

2 hours ago, VonS said:

If this thread must turn into a (very humble) request list, the only one that comes to mind immediately is --- get ready for this one everyone --- the Bleriot XI (of whatever variant, but I particularly like the 45-hp Anzani or later 7-cylinder rotary type).

I owe someone a favor, of which includes some help on some First Eagles support.  While I am very constrained for time and not around as much, let me try to oblige your request if I can.  Full disclaimer this is NOT my original model; it is a publicly available and permissible model that I have started to update and convert for use in First Eagles.  Note I am out of my element and not knowledgeable in this genre, so will need some guidance if I were to continue this.  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by swambast

[+VonS 1,424]

A beautiful surprise and welcome addition to FE2!

While I know nothing about 3-d modelling, I'll be more than happy to re-work a data ini file/FM eventually for the Bleriot - will use one of the early MS Type G variant data inis and will then tweak further until we have the Bleriot XI FM. (If you require a basic data ini to get that freeware Bleriot flying in FE2 - I would recommend the 45hp variant of the MS Type G that I have in my big FM package, as a start - I can always hammer things into shape further with that data ini file since it is the closest to an early Bleriot.)

Take your time with this great model and I'm sure that some of our 3-d model specialists will pitch in with advice/suggestions if necessary. I'm leaving a couple of links here - one is for various stats. on Bleriot XI variants (an older post), and the other shows the front end of the now-abandoned Bleriot XI that Geezer was working on a while back (I think he was trying to model the 1914 type with 7-cylinder rotary, two-seater variant). That freeware type seems to be the 1909 "Channel Hopping" variant, judging from the front end and the truss assembly in front of the cockpit, as well as the shape of the rudder.

I'm thinking out loud here so feel free to disregard my ramblings ... with the rudder reworked as the rectangular one that fits roughly to the middle of the end of the fuselage, to the last vertical truss that completes the fuselage ... ... FE2 would then have a very convincing Bleriot of about 1911 to 1913 vintage, perfectly believable as an early-war trainer and also scout/recon. aircraft for 1914 and early 1915 ... although the model is convincing as is (should it be impossible to change anything on it from stock form).

Great stuff all around! Enough of my ramblings on the topic. Here are the links I promised:

https://combatace.com/forums/topic/91066-new-aircraft/?page=20&tab=comments#comment-750611

https://combatace.com/forums/topic/91066-new-aircraft/?page=23&tab=comments#comment-751212

Happy flying all,

Von S

MORE INFO.: I'm sure that Crawford will spot this thread eventually too and will offer further historical guidance if necessary. Have included sections of a couple of pics. below that illustrate a part of the rudder shape used from about 1911 onwards on the Bleriot...tail wheel would have been substituted by a variety of skids, standard ones as indicated in that freeware model, also "x"-shaped tail skids, as well as the very simple one in the black-and-white photo, etc. The front truss assembly on the freeware model is typical of 1909-10. A single "v"-type cabane truss is more reflective of 1911 or so, and later, variants, particularly the "pyramid"-truss configuration for rotary-powered Bleriots. The only other thing I can think of for now is that - if an engined-up Anzani model is being made - it should probably have the following dimensions (8.58 m wingspan, 7.53 m fuselage - the 7.79 m wingspan is more typical of the 25-hp Anzani of 1909). The Gnome rotary variant (Omega?, 60 hp) should be slightly bigger - with wingspan of 9.88 m, and fuselage of 7.95 m. These are dimensions for the one-seater version, taken from my other post linked above. If I had to "eyeball" that freeware model - I'd say the dimensions are closest already to the engined-up Anzani model. Also see this link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blériot_XI#/media/File:Bleriot_XI_Thulin_A_1910_a.jpg) - a nice pic. of Carlson's Thulin-built XI in flight - this is most likely how the engined-up (Anzani) Bleriot would have looked too - the only real ambiguity being the front cowling. Rotary-powered ones featured more of a full cowling - whether or not engined-up Anzani variants ever carried the partial cowling as seen on Carlson's early rotary-powered type or had an entirely open front engine mount, as did the 1909-10 model (25-35hp), is up for speculation, particularly since the Type XI came in a variety of configurations. Personally I think the partial cowling would work well with the 45hp variant.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by VonS
Modified info. in post.

[+Stephen1918 1,474]

The Bleriot looks promising. I'm not an expert on the plane, but I'll be happy to answer any modeling/rigging questions you may have.

[Sky High 166]

Great surprise. 

That this plane flew represents a triumph of hope over technology!

[+Trotski 936]

horrible things to fly apparently,  I watched a talk by a pilot at the Shuttleworth collection, where they have to only flying original Bleriot. At low speeds ( and lets be honest it wasnt exactly quick anyhow ) ie take off, and landing , the controls reversed . You have to admire the likes of Bleriot himself , who flew these nightmares ( although rather beautiful ones ) as none of them had any formal flight training, they just got in the thing and went for it, very brave or very reckless !! 

 

 

[Sky High 166]

6 hours ago, trotski00 said:

horrible things to fly apparently,  I watched a talk by a pilot at the Shuttleworth collection, where they have to only flying original Bleriot. At low speeds ( and lets be honest it wasnt exactly quick anyhow ) ie take off, and landing , the controls reversed . You have to admire the likes of Bleriot himself , who flew these nightmares ( although rather beautiful ones ) as none of them had any formal flight training, they just got in the thing and went for it, very brave or very reckless !! 

 

 

Your man in the green overalls looks old enough to be Bleriot!

[+swambast 723]

Hey all, thanks for your comments.  You can see my ignorance, had no idea Geezer was already working on one.    Now that I track back and do some more reading, all I can say is "DARN!  GEEZER'S MODEL WAS LOOKING AWESOME AS ALWAYS!".  Would be so much faster to leverage what he started and finish it off.  Is there any hope of that?  Or do we really need to start from scratch?

[+VonS 1,424]

I have no idea if Geezer will return to FE2 modding - he seems to have left for other sims. and/or the Unreal engine (for static war displays that he was experimenting with). Best thing is to send him a PM regarding the Bleriot model - although I don't think that he logs in to CombatAce regularly. At this point I think that a Bleriot XI will have to be worked from scratch (that freeware model is a great starting point in my opinion and will not require too much work to become an engined-up Anzani variant - see the "More Info." section of my relevant post above for details regarding dimensions, trusses, etc.). Take your time with the model if you decide to work on that freeware variant - I'm sure that we FE2-ers will be pleased with the results, and we'll try to help with questions whenever possible.

Von S

[+swambast 723]

OK VonS, should be easy enough to sculpt into what you are looking for.  I'll start with the rudder changes and post updates as things progress.  Also, can you send me as a starting point the 45hp variant of the MS Type G you have in your FM package please.

Edited December 18, 2020 by swambast

[Wilches 1,173]

I know that someone of you guys are very excited with this kite, but it's useless in combat. No fixed guns. The pilot was fully exposed. Anyway it should be interesting to see how it flies.

[Sky High 166]

32 minutes ago, Wilches said:

I know that someone of you guys are very excited with this kite, but it's useless in combat. No fixed guns. The pilot was fully exposed. Anyway it should be interesting to see how it flies.

 

Useless in combat? Represents an improvement on me.

[+VonS 1,424]

On 12/18/2020 at 3:11 PM, swambast said:

OK VonS, should be easy enough to sculpt into what you are looking for.  I'll start with the rudder changes and post updates as things progress.  Also, can you send me as a starting point the 45hp variant of the MS Type G you have in your FM package please.

Included in this post is a zipped file (will leave the file up for about a week) that contains the data inis for the 45 and 60 hp variants of the MS Type G - either one may be used as the "generic" FM/data ini for the Bleriot XI - and then later I will tweak the file further (among other things, the Bleriot wings provide better climb since higher camber on them, but also more drag than on the MS G/H/L etc. wings).

As well, for a good view of the 45 hp Anzani 3-cylinder fan engine (w-variant), I recommend this link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzani_3-cylinder_fan_engines#/media/File:Anzani_Military_Model_Fan_type.JPG). The 45 hp variant had 72 degree separation between the cylinders, as well as exhaust valves shorter and at the cylinder heads. The older 25 hp variant (and 35 hp variation) had 55 degrees separation between cylinders, and exhaust pipes longer and going behind the cylinders (link to older variant model here: https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=894p4lc1b7o4i7qbu9bpi9i1g1&topic=2719.msg44984#msg44984).

Real output on the 45 hp variant was around 47-8 horses. There is also a rare, 53-55 hp variant (probably the 45 hp case with larger bore, and therefore even more prone to cylinder explosion, losing a cylinder, etc., since thinner walls on the cylinder). The 3-cylinder fan configuration was produced to about 1913, right before the war. The little holes going across the middle of each cylinder are to minimize pressure buildup inside, therefore less overheating, etc. There is also the y-variant of the 3-cyl. Anzani, with two cylinders facing downwards, but as far as I remember from my readings, the bottom two cylinders would often foul up (oil problems?) - the w-variant design is the more sound of the two.

Von S 

[Edit: Attachment removed.]

Edited December 20, 2020 by VonS
Removed attachment.

[Wilches 1,173]

1 hour ago, Sky High said:

 

Useless in combat? Represents an improvement on me.

You dam right!!! :)

[+swambast 723]

OK, thank you for the info.  Side note, there are literally several photos with varying degrees of discrepancy on the shape of the vertical stablizer/rudder - I am not sure which to follow!  For example, Geezer's differs from what I see in some of the source photos, and some of the source photos differ from others...Here is another revision on the "new rudder" but I need guidance on which "version" to use and any adjustments you might like, please.  Don't worry about any of the textures/UV Mapping for now, that will all be fine tuned later.

Edit:  Also side note, I noticed the horizontal stabilizer in many photographs had a "notched section" to accommodate the rudder.  I made that adjustment as well in the model, please advise of any needed changes regarding that.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by swambast

[+Trotski 936]

A new one of these would be nice as well for the Galipoli Front

 

 

[+VonS 1,424]

Here are a series of side-views of rudders that work well for the engined-up Anzani Bleriot. Your modified rudder works well too.

Von S

This is a rarer variant possibly of the rudder (Looks to be a two-seater Bleriot, rotary, but strangely sports the older cabane truss setup.)

This is likely the most typical rudder setup on post-1910 Bleriots.

A similar rudder to the one on the model immediately above this one (Also note the "pyramidal" cabane truss and simple tailskid on this one - this is likely a one-seater and, if it wasn't for the rotary it contains, noticeable from the side bulge on the full front cowling, would be an excellent candidate for an engined-up Anzani model too.)

Again, note the typical rudder shape on this one too, although slightly more squarish. As well take note of the semi-open cowling on this one - if the engined-up Anzani model sported a cowling, it was most likely this variant of cowling. (Old-style cabane truss arrangement on this one - either a one- or two-seater variant, not possible to tell really.)

Another representative model. Take note of the typical rudder shape again, and the simple "v"-shaped cabane truss arrangement, as on Carlson's Bleriot (seems to be a transitional cabane truss arrangement following after the initial style and before the later, "pyramidal"-truss arrangement - this is also a good candidate for the engined-up Anzani look).

If you are asking me to pick one, I would go with the look of the one in picture no. 3, but with the semi-open cowling of pic. no. 4 (the Turkish model) - cabane truss arrangement can be either as in pic. no. 3, or the transitional truss arrangement ("v"-shaped) of pic. no. 5 - for simplicity's sake I would go with the "pyramidal"-truss arrangement of pic. no. 3 too - and since such an arrangement allows for more "aerobatic" flying - but somehow to incorporate the semi-open cowl of no. 4 into the model displayed in no.3 - and then we have an engined-up Anzani.

MORE INFO.: In terms of the notch in the stabilizer, that is good that it is there - recommended is to extend the notch to the final, third spar of the horizontal stabilizer, since that will then mark where the elevators begin on that style of stabilizer (typical for the 1911-13 period). Also recommended is to give the horizontal stabilizer more of an s-shape, as seen from the side, particularly in pics. 2, 3, and 5 - and to move it forward by about half-a-foot (in real-world terms) so that the trailing edge of the elevators doesn't pass further than where the last vertical spar of the fuselage is located (the spar that joins the two halves of the fuselage together). Couple of pics. below, of the newer style, and older style, Bleriot stabilizer. Also included one with my crude illustrations over your modified rudder/stabilizer.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by VonS
Fixed typos.

[+Trotski 936]

 

[+Trotski 936]

Sorry about the previous vid, the bloody commentator had verbal gob poops !! Also that Bleriot is I think a replica, however it displays a different tail profile to the one you are thinking about, maybe it was just the early XI's that had the small rudder/stabiliser ? Anyhow heres another vid of the Shuttleworth Collection Bleriot, which is original, and is the oldest airworth aircraft in the world, although they dont actually fly it per se, rather they do a short hop down the runway, which is understandable really considering its historical significance. Also there are some nice views of the Anzani engine as well at the start of the vid.

 

 As a little treat I found this replica Taube as well, I know its unrelated to the topic at hand, however.....................

 

 

 

[+whiteknight06604 935]

I have a feeling that these were hand built in about as many variations as you can count. If I may make a humble suggestion, try to save each time you change it. You probably can release about 10 different visual versions that would match at least one picture or diagram. I’ll be happy with any versions released. Thank you 

Edited December 19, 2020 by whiteknight06604

[+VonS 1,424]

@Swambast, see my post a few posts above this one for detailed examples of horizontal stabilizer position, curvature, also rudder shapes and comments. I'm including in this post a couple of pics. with other general suggestions. The wings are fine by the way in stock form in that freeware model, in terms of overall camber, shape and span, but I recommend re-positioning of the rigging/warping wires. In terms of more detailed rigging of horizontal stabilizer, control cable positioning for rudder, elevators, etc. - I won't comment on that until much later in the development. No need to overwhelm ourselves. I will refrain from further detailed posts in this thread unless Swambast requires specific feedback, suggestions, etc., as the model progresses.

Happy flying all,

Von S 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by VonS
Repositioned pics.

[Wilches 1,173]

@Swambast, man... you´re in trouble!!!!

[+Trotski 936]

The RFC and French did fly a few 2 seater variants as well, so if you do mange to do a 2 seater, then we could use Stephens rifleman mod for his Taube .

 

[+Stephen1918 1,474]

6 hours ago, trotski00 said:

The RFC and French did fly a few 2 seater variants as well, so if you do mange to do a 2 seater, then we could use Stephens rifleman mod for his Taube .

I personally think the rifleman in the Taube moves kind of goofy. I use Whiteknight's unarmed version in my installs of the game.

Nevertheless, if you want to use him, I'll send you a 3DMax file for him. You'll have to adjust his movements in the FM to make him work with the Bleriot.

[+Trotski 936]

I likewise do not use the rifleman, it was merely a suggestion for a possible outcome, I use your Taube for pleasure flying lpersonally lol

[+swambast 723]

OK, thank you all with special thanks to VonS for the info and diagrams, extremely helpful.  I'm going to take each section at a time and once perfected move onto the next section.  Let us start with the tail only for now.  Please see revision.  Is this better?  What adjustments need to be made?