AIM-7M, Super 530D and R-27R comparison

[tiopilotos 2,527]

I know that with a title like this the thread becomes more like DCS but anyway I wanted to know what do you think about these 3 missiles. They were the last SARH missiles and theoritically the most effective ones so they are probably still operated by some air forces. 

AIM-7M is the final Sparrow variant with improved ECCM, longer range and improved low altittude performance. In 1991 it had a hit rate of 68.2% against Iraqi a/c. Even though the hit rate is high enough, I guess Iraqi AF operated hundreds of aircrafts which had equipment with limited RWR performance. I guess majority of a/c operated SPO-3/10 RWR but I am not fully aware of the capability of the system. It would help if someone knew the types of aircrafts that were killed by AIM-7M.

Super 530D is the evolution of Super 530F which had a good kill rate during Iran-Iraq counting for a total of 18 kills (F-14As, F-4Es and F-5Es) a Turkish F-100F and a USAF EF-111A included. 530D had a new seeker which improved ECCM capablity, improved guidance system and longer range as maximum speed was increased at 4.5 - 5.0 Mach at high alt. 530F was capable of at least 20G. However concerning Super 530D/F there's an important detail. The reason why this missile was developed was that at the time (early 70s) AdA wanted a missile capable of intercepting high altitude high speed bombers. That's why its maximum altitudinal difference between launcher aircraft and target can be at least 12,000 meters.

R-27R was the first SARH variant of the R-27 family but not the only one as there was a second R-27ER variant. I have read that some AIM-7E features (from a missile which was captured by Soviets in 1968) were used to develop the R-27. So this is interesting because normally the R-27 should have been an improvement over the previous R-24 missile. R-24 entered service in 1980/81 and was used by Iraq against IRIAF. Many R-23/24 kills are reported but I don't have a list with verified kills. So it's a bit weird that the development of the missile which was introduced sometime in mid 80s to arm the then state of the art Soviet fighters MiG-29 and Su-27 used features from a mid 60s design. There's also the 1999 incident between Ethiopian Su-27s and Eritrean MiG-29s where massive failed launches took place with only one hit. However it's more likely that aircrafts and missiles were left with limited maintenance if any and pilots should be poorly trained. 

Your thoughts gentlemen?

Edited April 14, 2021 by tiopilotos

[MigBuster 2,884]

Unless you wish to compare them on size and colour you might be out of luck.....but the ED forums will happily answer this impossible question in their own unique way I suspect 

 

Radar missiles that don't have radars you say?

• The FCR of the supporting aircraft would be a big factor.
• How well does the missile stand up to ground handling and vibration and environment / weather ?.
• Pilot tactics/skill.
• Supporting assets AWACs/GCI.
• How good is your SIGINT/ELINT to provide operation in an EW environment?
• ECCM: difficult this really because nobody generally has access to everything the other side does.
• Does the enemy have the ability to recognise they are being fired at?

Probably others................. but looking at lists of kills from 3 totally different environments is probably not going to help anything at all.

 

There were no doubt a number of sub variants of these missiles that likely had improvements over the years. The AIM-7 sold to Iraq recently had a AIM-7M-F1/H designation so hopefully little relation to the 1980s stuff for their sakes!

The R-27R and ER were exploited in US programs in the 1990s so give it a few decades and something might come out.

The 530D didn't hit Mirage 2000 squadrons till about 1988 and I had always paired the 530F with the AIM-7F which also had about 16 claims in 82 guided by one of the most advanced radars on the planet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jeanba 1,920]

The main mission of the 530F and D was to intercept Mig25 recon aircraft.

If high speed soviet bombers overflew France, another type of weapon would by used by the french:

 

The 530D was designed to operate with the Mirage 2000RDI.

Some 2000RDM could fire it, but this required a specific illuminator

Edited April 14, 2021 by jeanba

[+Gepard 11,356]

I dont know from where the info is that the AIM-7M had a kill ratio of 68.2%. Tom Clancy claimed in his book "Fighterwing" a kill ratio of 36%. And this is bad. But much better than in Vietnam, where the kill rate of the Sparrow was somewhere near 6%.

[tiopilotos 2,527]

17 minutes ago, Gepard said:

I dont know from where the info is that the AIM-7M had a kill ratio of 68.2%. Tom Clancy claimed in his book "Fighterwing" a kill ratio of 36%. And this is bad. But much better than in Vietnam, where the kill rate of the Sparrow was somewhere near 6%.

The info comes from Barry D. Watts: https://web.archive.org/web/20130720010705/http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006psa_winter_roundtable/watts.pdf#

Indeed it seems to me quite high but it's the only available source I have. 

What is your opinion about R-27R ?

[MigBuster 2,884]

That is from GWAPs

 

GWAPS also has a figure of 88 for expended as in NOT fired at Migs that was used in Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat (Lt Col Patrick Higby, USAF) which listed a 27.3% kill ratio however we are only interested in missile attempts at an aircraft.

 

If you go by pilot accounts for engagements you get 50 fired for 23 kills (45%)

I seem to have a photo of a document with 62% also but don't have the name of the book!
 

Different authors will of course use what figure suits their agenda.

 

Anyway I am sure you will find more.......

[macelena 1,070]

I'm not sure the actual combat record can be, ironically, a reflection of the real capabilities of those missiles, there are way too many variables. Compared with, say, Vietnam, the US had a much better situation in terms of "situational awareness" compared to the Iraqi forces than it had in Vietnam, and that would favour the shots being taken within more favourable parameters.

Had the Iraqis been able to use GCI and the US been restricted as much as in Vietnam into BVR, i wouldn't be surprised if events like the MiG-25 that slipped and shot down an F-18 were much more common.

Also, having better, all aspect Sidewinders might make them the choice for many shots that B-D-E-G-H-Js wouldn't have been able to perform, such as close range head-on shots, and would have been harder to achieve with AIM-7s

[+Gepard 11,356]

20 hours ago, tiopilotos said:

What is your opinion about R-27R ?

It was a reliable weapon, comparable with the latest AIM-7. The major plus point was the option of "silent shot", what meant, that it was possible to launch the missile without activating the radar of the plane. The missile was internaly guided to a certain point, close to the expacted flightpath of the target. When this point (approx 10 km distance from target) was reached the plane would switch on the radar and took over the guidance for terminal approach.

The R-27R was the weapon of choice against bombers and in head on combat situations. You should not forget, that in 1989 the radar of the MiG-29 and Su-27 was safe against all western jammers. The american specialists needed some days in 1991 to find a way to jam the MiG-29 radar. It was only possible, because they had a german MiG-29 at hand.

[tiopilotos 2,527]

This advantage has an inherent drawback though... The pilot of the launcher aircraft has to estimate the possible location of the target during the silent shot because some seconds later he needs to lock on the target so that the missile will fly its final flight path. If pilot won't be able to perform the final lock fast, the missile will loose the target.

[+Gepard 11,356]

The silent shot was possible with MiG-23 too. During Lebanon war 1982 syrian MiG-23MF fired R-23R missiles in silent shot mode and then broke off. Other MiG-23MF took over the task to guide the missiles. The syrians claimed to have shoot down some israeli planes with this methode. With MiG-23ML this methode was not possible.