Flanker, Flanker, Flanker....

[Hawk MMS 0]

Why the obsession with Flankers. I know everyone will give the the party line but, isn't it a little overkill. I am not knocking its performance or abilities just questioning its adoration. By the way the new SU add ons are fun to have and done extremely well.

 

Questions:

Combat history?

How many of these nations can support deployments and attrition losses in a real air shooting war?

 

The only Sukhoi or Mig I was trained to like was the one that was at the end of my HIPIR. People are entitled to their opinion. Just looking for some responses and besides I can't stand Communists (don't let Putin fool ya).

 

 

KNOWN COMBAT RECORD: Eritrean-Ethiopian War (Ethiopia, 1998-2000)

MUST HAVE BEEN A ROUGH ONE AIR WISE YA THINK?

KNOWN OPERATORS: Angola, Força Aérea Popular de Angola (Angolan People's Air Force)

Belarus, Voyenno Vozdushnyye Sily (Belarus Air Force)

China, Zhongkuo Shenmin Taifang Tsunputai (People's Liberation Army Air Force)

Ethiopia, Ye Ityopya Ayer Hayl (Ethiopian Air Force)

Indonesia, Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udara (Indonesian Air Force)

Kazakhstan (Kazakhstan Air Force)

Mexico, Aviación de la Armada de Mexico (Mexican Naval Air Arm)

Russia, Voyenno Vozdushniye Sili (Russian Air Force)

Syria, Al Quwwat al-Jawwiya al Arabiya as-Souriya (Syrian Air Force)

Ukraine, Voyenno Vozdushnyye Sily (Ukraine Military Air Forces)

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Voyenno Vozdushniye Sili (Soviet Air Force)

Uzbekistan (Uzbek Air Force)

Vietnam, Khong Quan Nhan Dan Viet Nam (Vietnam People's Army Air Force)

 

 

 

 

 

[Marcfighter 24]

Hi USMC Hawker!

Particularly.

I Like of many airplanes, especially SU-27 have a very beautiful drawing.

F-15 Eagle has a historical of excellent combat, but , when the Russians wanted to simulate combat SU-27 vs F-15 USA they

didn't want.

[Hawk MMS 0]

Well marcfighter, I am very impressed w/the aircraft you have made for WOE. Very nice.

Edited March 13, 2007 by USMC Hawker

[Canadair 16]

hmhm well the flanker is beautiful; and while I respect your job and your duties, I ve been trained to like all the planes and the people that flies them; really, I am not mothertongue and don't want to seem in anyway unrespectful to you;

on the other hand it was a needed add-on to spice up the scenery in SFP-1 scenarios as OPFOR;

thus saying, in my private dreams, I dream of a world where jetfighters are sport car, all aerial wars (and all wars) are confined to Redflag, and pilots and sam operators, annd all the warriors duel in the skies for the pleasure of confronting each other, rather than the need of killing each other. Just my haven-dream

and in this dream the beautiful shape of a Flanker, has plenty of space

thus saying, again, I repsect your duties and courage;

[Hawk MMS 0]

I agree it is a great thing for the sim. I just want to understand the adoration so many give it. I won't debate the other hocus pocus (spelling?).

[+Dave 2,322]

The Flanker is a damn good plane. I think people like it because it because in a market flooded with Eagles and Vipers, the Flanker offers a unique alternative. Most of those countries in the list above can afford a Flanker's price tag to the price tag of the F-15's and F-16's. Also Russia is very willing to sell the Flanker to anyone who has the cash. The US is not as forthcoming on selling its military hardware. Many of those in the list would not even get a look at at by the US.

[Hawk MMS 0]

That is true and I am ok with that. It is sort of like selling your top of the line aircraft to Itran then having its government take a total header. Scary thought in todays world. Your statement re: over eagle and over falcon exposure makes sense. I know why they by from the USSR (I mean Russians) I just don't think that these air forces would last that long even with there vaunted Flankers. Thanks for the input from all. I am not trying to offend anyone. I try to fly the reds and can't do it. Sorry. Call Cold War upbringing i guess

[Marcfighter 24]

When was child I adored airplanes and there were just western

airplanes to see.

Per decades the Soviet airplanes were ignored.

When the Soviet government ended, the Russians showed for the occident that

had done in the aviation.

I think the curiosity made me to like of airplanes that I could not know .

I didn't stop liking of the

P-51,P-40,P-47,P-39,P-38,F-4U,F-86,F-4E,F/A-18C,F-14,F-16,F-15 and others.

I have these in my shelf

I don't like Wars, I love airplanes!

OK! My friend ! Peace!

[Mannie 21]

Hi USMC Hawker.

 

Surely you can not accuse me of being pro commie, being Israeli and all the time on your side.

 

I just like jetfighters and as someone has put it: I tend to look at them as airborn race cars.

 

To my eyes, the Flanker is a real handsome looking jet. no doubt a very good one to.

 

as for its record. you know what thay say? its us Israerlies that gave the Mirage its reputation.

 

Without us, Dasoult would have gone bankrupt.

 

What I'm trying to say is: try to imagine the Flanker wearing Israeli colors in the hands of our pilots.

 

This is it. its all I wanted to say.

 

SEMPER FI !!!

 

<S>

[Hawk MMS 0]

Ahhh the commie comment was a joke. Just thought a little lively aircraft debate would help liven things up. I would cringe at the flanker in Israeli markings. That would most likely imply something has gone tragically wrong. Stick with us . Seriously, you have all helped me understand the interest placed in to the modern SU aircraft. Thanks for your input.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Dude, you missed Malaysia in that list. I think why folks (like me) were excited about it was that having the Flanker represented finally having one of the two biggest kids on the block. Quite a lot of people are waiting for either the Flanker family and/or the F-22 to have their own showdown.

I have to say, I'm a big fan of the airplane and believe it is (or can be) superior to most of the final generation of conventional US fighters, by that, I mean the later generation Flankers (Su-35/37, Su-30 etc). Having been developed and having it's maturation at a later stage has helped it immensely in becoming the future Eagle Killer, not to mention India and China acquiring huge numbers of them. I don't think you can rest your opinion of an aircraft's successes soley on it's combat performances simply because there are a lot of countries that aren't involved in armed conflicts to vett their new aircraft. I mean, if that were the case, the Mig-29 would be the engineering disaster of last century with it's combat record absolutely tanking. Also, ecconomically, this plane is much more feasable for some non-alligned countries since it's unit cost (Approx 38-41mil US for Su-27sk) and training & maintanace packages are much cheaper that US or European counterparts. (even though some russian aircraft can be monsters to maintain)

 

And... there are some bloody annoying vocal Raptor fans out there, and this gives us a chance to shut them up, temporarily.

One last thing:

Also Russia is very willing to sell the Flanker to anyone who has the cash. The US is not as forthcoming on selling its military hardware. Many of those in the list would not even get a look at at by the US.

Don't forget, the US is also very willing to pull support for it's foreign military sales to place pressure political pressure on governments such as with Pakistan and the F-16A/Bs. I can't quite remember but I think it was over the nuclear testing in 99. Plus US contractors get pretty toey when their technology is sold or distributed to competitors in the industry and Russian ones are still pretty keen for funding and a larger slice of the international market since their industries were denied access for so long.

[Hawk MMS 0]

I digress.

 

 

also, think the raptor craze is over the top as well.

Edited March 14, 2007 by USMC Hawker

[Hawk MMS 0]

I did find this:

 

...has seen little action since it first entered service. The only notable exception is during the Eritrean-Ethiopian War (1998-2000). For the latter half of the conflict, Su-27As were used extensively by Ethiopia in CAP (Combat Air Patrol) missions and as escorts for Mig-21 and Mig-23 bombers. In the course of their service, Ethiopian Su-27s shot down two Eritrean MiG-29s; some of the Flankers were flown by Russian & Ukrainian trainers (some of whom were accused of being mercenaries), while some were flown by their Ethiopian pupils.

[JediMaster 451]

The Flanker, like the Fulcrum, is an excellent airplane. Its effectiveness as a fighter depends on other things, some of which are known and others are not.

Avionics? Always been a weak point in Russian planes.

Armament? Since the R-73/AA-11 introduction, lethal in WVR combat combined with its good gun. BVR not so much because of the previously mentioned avionics as well as SARH/RH missile issues.

Reliability? Never very good in the past, but getting better as countries with money like India and China pay them to make them better. The engines are the primary fault in that area, but are improving.

Damage resistance/robustness? No one really knows. The East Africa conflict wasn't very big to really draw any conclusions.

 

Most of the Flanker's adoration comes from its looks, its lines, and its flying ability. It's also one big mutha and makes even the F-15 look small. :)

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

For me, I still think the F-15 has a hint of the "Brute Force" era (Muscle jets like the Phantom, Mig-25 etc) from which it was born. The Flanker's just a little more asthetically pleasing to me in that it's design was charged with doing what the Eagle does, only better and it shows. Only problem is that this doesn't necessarily help with it's stealthiness.

 

This is why I fell in love with the 37. Watch the sequence from at 1:03

 

 

I mean, as thrust vectoring becomes more widely available in modern fighters you'll see more aircraft doing this. Still, I'd never seen anyone throw a fighter around the sky like this...

 

(Just ignore the crappy Sukhoi CG sales stuff)

[eraser_tr 29]

I used to think "Whats the big deal? its just another modern airplane" from flying against it with no particular difficulty in the old janes games. Until I started watching videos of the acrobatics it can do. Then I thought "Holy s**t! I don't want one of those within 10 miles of me unless I'm in it"

 

Otherwise its a gorgeous aircraft, big, yet sleek. And far more interesting paintschemes than we see on any of its western counterparts, with the exception of our aggressor aircraft painted to simulate them.

[FastCargo 412]

As someone mentioned before, the Su-27 and it's varients are beautiful and powerful aircraft...as an effective fighter, it's still an unknown for various reasons mentioned already. There are also a few other factors working against operators of said aircraft.

 

1) Training. Most operators can not simply afford to give the pilots the training hours and scenarios needed to stay proficient in their aircraft up to the standard of First World western eqivalents. As a part time reservist, I get 12 hours a month in a trainer aircraft. That's more than some countries give their pilots in 6 months. And I'm just a part timer. This makes the next problem worse...

 

2) Ergonomics. Even in modern Russian aircraft with glass, their general ergonomics are right out of the 1970s. As a human factors major, I tend to end up looking at everything from a human interface angle. When things are going great, you can get by with twitchy layouts. Not so when the sierra hits the fan. That's why 'sensor fusion' is such a big deal...the idea of being able to consolidate the various inputs an aircraft gets and sort it in one easy to interpret method for the pilot. I can't emphasize how important this is...and how it's only going to get more critical as more sensors are integrated into the battlespace. If your pilot's head explodes because he can't integrate all the info he's getting, it's all over...

 

FastCargo

[Hawk MMS 0]

What is scarier than a weapons exporting, empire building US of A? (As we are often referred to...)

 

An empire building, weapons exporting Russia. I wonder when the CZARs will return? Putin? That should be a campaign in WOE. The return of the CZARs and a grab for all territories lost at the fall of the USSR.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Who said the communists ever left? Ever noticed how the lions share of the filthy rich have inherited their wealth from family members who were once ranking party officials...?

 

Besides, no questions asked 2nd tier weapons exports from a country strapped for cash that is only now recovering from the Soviet collapse is a legitimate business. And that's all it is really, just a modernisation of business practices and shedding some of that old party dogma. There won't be any empire building from Russia since everyone is too aware of what the consequences of that are. They will, however, fight tooth and nail to keep the influence they have over the former satellite states. There was talk about re-integrating Belorus into Russia...

 

Also, FastCargo, the latest variants of Flanker have fully adjustable seats to 25 degrees. It's not quite as comfy as you viper jocks make out, but it's better than those seats built like an L... They're part of the glass cockpit upgrade and with each new production model.

[FastCargo 412]

Also, FastCargo, the latest variants of Flanker have fully adjustable seats to 25 degrees. It's not quite as comfy as you viper jocks make out, but it's better than those seats built like an L... They're part of the glass cockpit upgrade and with each new production model.

 

I wasn't talking about seats. Seats are not as big a deal as everyone thinks...especially when you talk to viper guys (outside of the PR stuff). Seats that far back are uncomfortable to fly and fight in with your head back.

 

What I was talking about was control/display layout/symbology. Ergonomics is the study of man and machine and its effects on humans (taken from the definition adopted by the International Ergonomics Association in 2007). Some of the russian layouts, even in their modern aircraft, are operator hostile and will contribute to a loss of SA.

 

FastCargo

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Fair enough. One thing that I think was been distinctive of Russian aircraft though, is the cramped, ad-hoc style cockpit. Everything is just sort of crammed in there, where ever there is space.

[JediMaster 451]

Right, like the pilot.

[FastCargo 412]

Yea, I remember old F-105 and F-4 pilots telling me of the switch layouts back in the day...talk about byzantine! Commerical aircraft were just as bad...there were major improvements just from the 727 to the DC-10. And the A300 was a jump above that.

 

The Russians have come a long way, but western designers have come farther. Things improved once human factors began to be engineered into aircraft.

 

I often joke the A380 will have a single button. You press it..."Preflight start"..."Preflight, complete". :).

 

FastCargo

[JediMaster 451]

That's because in the old days the engineers built them to work, not to fly. All that mattered to them was that all the necessary controls were there and functioned properly. If you pulled your spleen every time you had to reset the breakers, that wasn't their problem.

[Hawk MMS 0]

Do you think 20 years ago a "enemy" built aircraft would get so much adoration (even if its performance was so vaunted)?