F-22

[+Gocad 26]

Sorry for the bump, but there is something about the F-22 that crosses my mind frequently.

 

One of the most signifying features is of course its stealth capabilities. The fact that the F-22 is basically impossible to detect is often described as its main advantage compared to all other potential aircraft it could encounter in combat.

But I do keep thinking that the Stealth technology is some sort of dead end, because it is only an advantage as long the other side (who ever that may be) has no access to it.

 

But what happens if Russia, China or any other nation striving to build modern aircraft succeeds in building their own stealth aircraft, or at least come up with a new method to detect it. Then what?

Sure, given the amount of time and the resources that were necessary to come up with the F-22 make it clear that something like it won't turn up tomorrow, but still I think it's a vaild question.

 

So, what do you guys think?

Edited October 13, 2007 by Gocad

[FastCargo 412]

Any technology can eventually be superceded, that's pretty much a given. The F-22 isn't meant to be the end all be all...it's just the end all be all RIGHT NOW. It's a technological jump that will take a while for anyone to match.

 

Examples of this exist throughout aviation history (and even eariler).

 

We simply adapt and transition to the next leap. If the ABL becomes more efficient and stronger, fighters may not be an option anymore because it'll knock them from the sky 'Star Wars' style. Or be used as a super giant lidar to defeat stealth. Or plamsa based stealth. Etc, etc, etc...

 

FastCargo

[JediMaster 451]

Right now, stealth almost = invisible. However, its true intention is simply to reduce detectability. Then, once detected, make it hard to track. Then, if it can be tracked, make it hard to shoot down. That's what the uber agility is for.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

...once detected, make it hard to track. Then, if it can be tracked, make it hard to shoot down. That's what the uber agility is for...

 

...and when shot down, the super radar absorbing rubber fuselage allows it to bounce, becoming airborne once again... I mean, there's really no way to kill the bugger short of hitting the Earth with a small(ish) asteroid, bringing on the second ice age and waiting for them to die out. Same applies to gingers too I hear.

[Piloto 3]

Just one question....did any real pilot ever train a dogfight in rainy weather? Its just to see how stealthy the damn thing is....

 

Another opinion is....."yeah! its great! give it to us!..."

[Silverbolt 104]

somewone can confirm the information of a F-22 lost one combat for one F-18E in the last Red flag?

[FastCargo 412]

Let me guess, you think this based on 2 screen captures of a F-18 Hornet HUD with an F-22 in it's sights, right?

 

Where have I heard that before.

 

Sigh...

 

FastCargo

[+Typhoid 231]

You think the Air Force will write "HEHE you can't see me", on the side of the plane. LOL

 

 

makes preflights a little tough....

 

[Silverbolt 104]

exctly, but somewone said me befor show the screens

[+Typhoid 231]

somewone can confirm the information of a F-22 lost one combat for one F-18E in the last Red flag?

 

a ration of 1 to 60 (or something like that) is not exactly a rining endorsement for the Hornet! it was not one to one.

[FastCargo 412]

Typhoid,

 

I was wondering if you had any inside dope on those HUD captures...no one seems to have the definite poop on the actual context. And no one seems to be offering up "Hey, that was me" either.

 

FastCargo

[+Typhoid 231]

Typhoid,

 

I was wondering if you had any inside dope on those HUD captures...no one seems to have the definite poop on the actual context. And no one seems to be offering up "Hey, that was me" either.

 

FastCargo

 

nope. I did see a reference to those exercises, but I don't recall where, but in it the one F-22 mort was described as one guy who broke the tactics to go one on one. In other words, in an excursion from their unqualified and overwhelming success one guy went mano a mano with a group of Hornets and one of the Bug drivers got the only (visual) shot of the exercise.

 

I read another description from the Hornet drivers who described their recommended tactics for fighting F-22's. In a word - "Don't" and "eject".

 

They described gettng killed without ever gaining contact on the opposition. It was reported to be "demoralizing....".

 

not pursuing the F-22N option may prove to be one of the worst decisions for carrier aviation ever made.

 

as eraser put it somewhere - we are going into the next war with the 21st Century equivelant of Brewster Buffaloes up against the Advanced Flanker/Zero's.

 

I talked with a couple of Hornet CO's and a Hornet Topgun instructor who all, when pressed, admitted that the Advanced Flanker with the latest Russian weapons suites outclass the latest and greatest Super Hornets with our latest weapons. The ONLY advantages we currently have are based on tactics and training - both of which evaporate in the face of tactics and training developments on the part of another Advanced Flanker equipped Air Force. India being a perfect example of tactics and training - good thing they are on our side at the moment!! (if there is anyone the Islamo-Fascist Jihadists of the One True Capiphate hate more than us its the Hindus of India).

 

And before all the Hornet advocates get up in arms - I happen to love the Hornet. As a light strike fighter!! its superb and has absolutely fantastic maintenance manhours. A Hornet squadron can generate a tremendous number of sorties per day per aircraft that is unmatched, and in the operational sense that is a war-winner par excellence. But they may not be survivable against an Advanced Flanker and advanced SAM environment, such as some interesting countries are fielding, without some additional support - The F/A-18G being one critical addition along with something like F-22's to sweep the skies for them while they lug JDAMs "downtown".

Edited October 15, 2007 by Typhoid

[+Typhoid 231]

Hmmm...let me think. Let's risk several multi million dollar aircraft on the assumptions that my airspeed is correct (every 10 KIAS off at altitude equals .05 mach - 1/2 a mile per minute - 30 NM per hour), the winds are correct (10 knots cross - 10 NM per hour), the air density is correct (a 2000 ft PA change - 10 KIAS change) and you take in the mag variance change and the compass card doesn't drift. Oh, and you have no ground references for at least 4 hours travel because you're over an ocean that covers 1/3 of the planet. For a training exercise.

 

And forget cel nav...know any fighter pilots who carry cel nav tables and a sextant?

 

Tell ya what, go bungee jumping...doesn't sound quite as stupid as the above scenario.

 

FastCargo

 

AMEN!! Finding a continent after 8 hours of overwater DR flying could be more than challenging. Where did Amelia end up again?

 

continuing on a peace-time exercise over the broad Pacific with all your electronics shut down and no other means to navigate is pure suicide. Besides - it was a temp glitch that was quickly (with great embarrassment by the USAF and amusement by the USN!) fixed.

[+Dave 2,322]

I have to find the AAR on the F-22 / F/A-18E thing. IIRC it was what about breaking ROE's. I will see if my AWAC's crew that was working that airspace can tell me what happened. They control the entire airspace for all those exercises.

[BigRed 0]

Maybe this will help:

 

In early 2006, after an exercise involving just eight F-22s in Nevada in Nov. 2005, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley AFB, Virginia, commented "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss. They didn't see us at all."[33]

 

In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 5 to 1 at times.[21][34] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%.[30]

 

The F-22 is extremely difficult to defeat during dogfighting. At Red Flag 2007, RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron, commented that "The [F-22] denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy. It's the most frustrated I've ever been."[35] An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 simulated kill in Red Flag, February 2007. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM.[36] It was later revealed that the F-22 pilot had not realized that the aggressor was still 'alive' and did not attack the aggressor aircraft.

 

F-22---360 Degrees of Battlespace Awareness :) I know my AWACS Bros love that one!

[Silverbolt 104]

thanks :)

[JediMaster 451]

If the USN had gone the NATF route they wouldn't have been able to buy enough for all the air wings. The USAF won't be buying that many, either. Just not enough money.

[+Typhoid 231]

If the USN had gone the NATF route they wouldn't have been able to buy enough for all the air wings. The USAF won't be buying that many, either. Just not enough money.

 

that is absolutely true and is also why the strike variants of the Tomcat were not pursued. Simply not enough $$$$.