F-14 Tomcat vs the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Thread

[+streakeagle 864]

While I wouldn't call myself a Tomcat fan (always loved the F-4E and its successor the F-15), I have always respected it for what it was: one hell of a AWG-9/Phoenix platform with a respectable secondary dogfight capability.

It was never designed to be low cost or light weight and was designed when cold war fears generated virtually unlimited military budgets.

It was purchased after the budgets started collapsing (hence the temporary TF30 engines became a permanent short-coming for nearly two decades and the advent of the cheap lightweight multi-role F/A-18).

The design was a dead end: the resurgent cold war budgets of the mid to late 80's did not produce a single swing fighter or 70,000+ lb "fighters".

The AWG-9 is obsolete, so the need to build an aircraft large enough to carry it is gone.

 

The dimensions of the F/A-18E/F proves that McDonnell got it right when they designed the F-4 Phantom: a multi-role carrier based fighter needs to be about 30,000 lbs empty with about 500 ft^2 of wing area and 13000 lbs of fuel internally.

Obviously the more delta winged Phantom was optimized more for speed/high-alt interception while the more straight-winged SH leans toward lower speeds and agility.

The SH obviously has some design limitations, but the Navy clearly believes it is the best bang for the buck in a world where your primary mission is to bomb third world countries with a secondary mission of defending yourself against any 2nd rate aircraft that might oppose its primary mission with a shoe-string post cold war budget.

 

If Russia starts fielding a large hi-tech blue-water Navy with Su-27 variants on carriers, the US Navy might regret their decision to save money buying short range bomb-trucks, but that's a big IF.

How many 1st rate hi-tech fighters did F-14s fight in extended dogfights over the course of 30+ years? None? 1 or 2?

If manned fighters are virtually eliminated before any more major wars are fought, the Navy will laugh at the USAF for spending all that money on F-22s.

Who knows what the future will be, but past history assures us that the military is always prepared to fight the previous war and caught with their pants down when they find out first hand what is needed to fight the next war.

[eraser_tr 29]

True enough, the problem is we've got more menacing threats on the horizon than halfassed third world countries. I just saw a news story online about Iran and Russia forming their own regional alliance, and Putin has been carefully and slowly bringing back many of the Soviet's ways. Venezuela is going socialist( and I don't mean in the canadian/scandanavian way) and China is already in an economic war with us. The Saudi royal family and General Musharraf are in pretty bad shape.

 

We've got to be prepared for anything. And unmanned aircraft will never take the place of human pilots. Anything remote controlled leaves the "pilot" without the same effectivness of being in the cockpit, and completely robotic has such a long ways to go. Do you really want our air dominance hinging on the kind of AI opponents we see in flight sims?

Edited October 25, 2007 by eraser_tr

[+{FL}Hausser 0]

My reply, love and loyalty can be sized up in one picture......

 

[Silverbolt 104]

(Tomcatter mode on)

i just have one thing to say:

Hornets are gays!

(Tomcatter mode off)

[+Typhoid 231]

(Tomcatter mode on)

i just have one thing to say:

Hornets are gays!

(Tomcatter mode off)

 

no, you have to get this straight. They are the Fighter and Attack GuyS............

 

[Caesar 305]

My reply, love and loyalty can be sized up in one picture......

Hellz yeah!

[MiGMasher 0]

no, you have to get this straight. They are the Fighter and Attack GuyS............

 

 

ROFL

[MiGMasher 0]

The SH is also maxed out on growth potential-Boeing and LM IIRC, are working on installing an IRST ( IRST are better "tuned" for A-A targetting, while LANTIRN and the like are better for A-G lasing and target ID) ON a 400 gallon centerline tank-its stupid IMHO-there isnt room in the jet, so they're putting needed avionics in a bigger, draggier tank, that will still offer 300 gallons of fuel.

 

It sounds strange that the Navy will go that way. I mean, like, in an emergency, such as a dogfight, isn't it common practice to jettison tanks?

[Vampyre 24]

FC

 

You should see the Bone with the litening pods.......

 

Havent seen the Litening on a Lancer but heres some pics of the Sniper pod on a Bone.

 

 

 

 

If you look closely in this pic, the B-52 is carrying a pod on a pylon between engines #6 and #7. Looks a bit like a Litening Pod.

 

 

Tomcats Rule! Anytime Baby!

Edited October 26, 2007 by Vampyre

[+Dave 2,318]

I meant sniper pod.....good catch.

[Silverbolt 104]

nah... who care?

Interceptor rulez!

and he can swing wing!

[+Typhoid 231]

It sounds strange that the Navy will go that way. I mean, like, in an emergency, such as a dogfight, isn't it common practice to jettison tanks?

 

I think the logic (or lack thereof) is that there won't be any fighter opposition that the Hornets tasked to sweep the skies won't have already taken care of. That works today, not sure it will always work in the future.

[eraser_tr 29]

Pretty arrogant considering even fourth rate air forces area able to afford su-30s these days.

[+Dave 2,318]

Pretty arrogant considering even fourth rate air forces area able to afford su-30s these days.

 

Its not arrogant, its stupidity on some peoples thinking. The Navy needs a good fighter and not a dual role, they need a fighter such as the Tomcat or something equivalent.

[+Typhoid 231]

Its not arrogant, its stupidity on some peoples thinking. The Navy needs a good fighter and not a dual role, they need a fighter such as the Tomcat or something equivalent.

 

which was exactly my point.

 

but also bear in mind what I did post above, the strike package against an air capable threat would include top cover of Hornets flying strictly in the air to air role. An Alpha Strike package if you will. So the strike package would ingress in while the escort/Mig Cap clears the way and a SEAD package shuts down the GBAD. So not completely arrogant or stupid.

 

but yes, we (the USN) I think desperately needs a carrier based air superiority package that is focused on what the next generation AFTER the Advanced Flankers might field.

[Silverbolt 104]

well, TOPGUN , the movie Still doing effect on me since 94!

Highway to the Danger Zone

Ride into the Danger Zone!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:

OK, but speaking seriously....

the change the tomcats by the Super Bugs, was a good one, was better than upgrade the Tomcats until russia still sleeping, now, they are reborning all of they old projects are runing Fast!

like KS-172(yes the amazing 300km Range missile anti-awacs and will be operational in a few years in the New Super Flanker, and maybe on PAK-FA, the Su-35BM), and now, the Phoenix is in coma stage(i think they dindt destroyed all) and the India and China are very interested on it! may India put it operational before Russia!

and if you can feel, Russia wants appear again with Modernization of Tu-95, with the Platypus and they new super anti-ship missiles who fly at supersonic speed! im not sure if one AIM-120D can lock and hit one Krypto , BraHmos or Moskit.

thinks certain one AIM-54C can do!

I can resume it all? USN Really need one specifc fleet defender(as USAFTML said), one aircraft designated just for it, like MiG-31BM on Russia, or F-22 in USAF(it lauched someJDAMs in supersonic speed, but i think is so hard use it like a striker now.)

And the justificative of cut the operational costs isnt the more apropriated for the moment, USA have the biggest economy of the World, but want cut costs, and Russia have a economy smaller than Brazil, but the Russia VVS and Russian Navy still operating the MiG-31 and modernizating it(be sure its really heave a operational cost more than Tomcat!), so they arent optimizing the money, the DoD are just are spending wrong!

 

So that MINE Point of VIEW!

Edited October 26, 2007 by Silverbolt

[Silverbolt 104]

Edit:

OK, but speaking seriously....

the change the tomcats by the Super Bugs, was a good one, was better than upgrade the Tomcats until russia still sleeping, now, they are reborning all of they old projects are runing Fast!

like KS-172(yes the amazing 300km Range missile anti-awacs and will be operational in a few years in the New Super Flanker, and maybe on PAK-FA, the Su-35BM), and now, the Phoenix is in coma stage(i think they dindt destroyed all) and the India and China are very interested on it! may India put it operational before Russia!

and if you can feel, Russia wants appear again with Modernization of Tu-95, with the Platypus and they new super anti-ship missiles who fly at supersonic speed! im not sure if one AIM-120D can lock and hit one Krypto , BraHmos or Moskit.

thinks certain one AIM-54C can do!

I can resume it all? USN Really need one specifc fleet defender(as USAFTML said), one aircraft designated just for it, like MiG-31BM on Russia, or F-22 in USAF(it lauched someJDAMs in supersonic speed, but i think is so hard use it like a striker now.)

And the justificative of cut the operational costs isnt the more apropriated for the moment, USA have the biggest economy of the World, but want cut costs, and Russia have a economy smaller than Brazil, but the Russia VVS and Russian Navy still operating the MiG-31 and modernizating it(be sure its really heave a operational cost more than Tomcat!), so they arent optimizing the money, the DoD are just are spending wrong!

 

So that MINE Point of VIEW!

Sorry for spamming, but i ask to my friend re-rite this for me to be more clear

 

The Tomcat's replacement by the New "Super Bugs",was nice,was better than upgrade the Tomcats while Russia was "sleeping" and now they are restarting some old projects and running fast!

The KS-172(the amazing 300km range anti-awacs missile and will be operational in some few years in the new Super Flanker,Su-35BM and maybe on PAK-FA also).Now the Phoenix is "hibernating"(I guess they didn't destroy all of them).Seems that India and China are very interested on it!May it be operational before Russia...!

Russia wants to come back with a modernized Tu-95,the platypus and its new super anti-ship missiles that can fly at supersonic speeds.I am not sure if the AIM-120C can hit one Kripto,Brahmos or Moskit.A AIM-54C could do it for sure...

Can I resume that???Well...USN really needs a fleet defender(as USAFTML said).One aircraft designated just for that like MiG-31BM in Russia or F-22 in the USAF(it has launched some JDAMS but I guess is hard to use it as a attack fighter.

USAF has justified its reason for budget cuts an it seems not to be in the right moment considerating his status in the world economy and influence and otherwise Russia has its economy smaller than the brazilian one but still carry on with their weaponery on VVS and Navy modernizing its MiG-31(this aircraft seems to have its cost bigger than the F-14).

Maybe DoD is not otimizing the budget but spending it in a wrong way...

[turkeydriver 4]

Well using a numeric comparison regarding engagement/kills when discussing the F-14 is just plain ignornant. The absolute truth of the matter is that the F-14 prevented more engagements than any aircraft mearly by appearing on the battlefield and turning on its AWG-9 or APG-71. F-15s main purpose in life is air superiority over the enemy battlespace so if they are not doing that, and doing that well, they are failing. So they better engage everything that gets airborne, and they better get the lion's share of the kills. They therefore also had more oppurtunity. The F-15C incorporated NCTR, from lessons learned in AIMVAL/ACEVAL when the F-15A lacked the F-14A in kills because the TCS on the tomcat allowed the crew to ID and shoot a bandit first. (unbeknowst to most is that the F-15 pilots where experessly forbidden to dogfight the F-14As due to the impending sale to Japan- at the end Hoser Satrapa challenged the leading F-15 pilot and after a bit , recorded a shot with the gun pipper tracking the F-15 pilots head!)

 

Back to the F-15, NCTR was automatic and better suited to a single piloted aircraft than a TCS. In Iraq, the enemy had no experience with the F-15 but plenty with the F-14(developing tactics using a minimum of four Mirage F1 to bounce the tomcat from four different directions and launch SARH missiles simultaneously to ensure a kill). The actual facts are sketchy, but Iranian F-14s scored between 50 and 150 kills over Iraqi aircraft with the F-14, including 3 MiG-23s with a single AIM-54 from long range (a lucky shot when the enemy was flying close formation and their RWR not warning them)

So when 1991 roled around, the F-15s only purpose was to kill MiGs. The F-14s first weren't allowed in country CAPs and were restricted to strike escort. The F-15 had the superior intercept package at this point as they could positively identify and shoot without permission from AWACs.

 

The Super Hornet is a compromise design, the only design left that the navy could risk, so they did. From an airframe capabilty standpoint, its just a trainwreck.

[eraser_tr 29]

If only this wasn't so expensive.......

[Vampyre 24]

nah... who care?

Interceptor rulez!

and he can swing wing!

 

Like this?

 

 

Seriously though, I am a proponent of both carrier based air power and long range strategic aviation because they offer almost instant reaction time (within a day or two). Both are extremely important to our national defense because of this and the fact that the bases for both are usually out of the reach of our enemies. The limitations of the Hornet require the carrier to be much closer to the beach and therefor much closer to the enemy which makes it easier to find and more vulnerable to enemy fire. The Hornet is easier to maintain than the Tomcat (I've worked on both) but I believe that if new versions of the Tomcat had been built a lot of the issues that made it hard to work on could have been rectified. Many of the low mean time between failure parts could have been replaced with more reliable parts and the avionics would defiantly been updated. Apply the latest stealth technologies and the ability to supercruise (which the basic airframe was capable of with engines of sufficient power) and possibly thrust vectoring and you have an aircraft comparable to the F-22. Also, imagine an AESA RADAR in the nose of a Tommy... RADAR functions primarily on power output and the size of the RADAR dish to get the longer detection ranges needed for the first shot advantage. It would be the quickest, most powerful, longest ranged system in any fighter around. Now all we have to hope for is a navalized F-22 or F-23 but we will probably only end up with a few F-35's which is a dubious proposition in itself. Twin engines should be a primary requirment for a naval aircraft. Hopefully we won't have to fight a war against a competant enemy anytime in the next 40 or 50 years.

 

Here's some pics from my last cruise.

 

 

 

 

Tomcats Rule! Anytime Baby!

[MiGMasher 0]

I wonder if the Air Force guys here can confirm if F-15 pilots fitted sniper scopes next to their HUDs for Visual ID.

[Silverbolt 104]

somewone know the resuts of a simulated combat between F-14 and F-15?

i read it in a Magazine(i guess it is from 1985 ) , but they dindt show the results

[+Gocad 26]

somewone know the resuts of a simulated combat between F-14 and F-15?

i read it in a Magazine(i guess it is from 1985 ) , but they dindt show the results

 

I know there was a fly-off between the F-14 and F-15 in the late 1970s when the Shah was shopping for a new interceptor.

A documentary about the Tomcat claimed that the Shah had preferred the Eagle first, but I guess you now which aircraft ended up in Iranian hands...

[Guest Saganuay82]

I have a pic in a book of a F15 pilot sitting in his seat with the crew chief beside him and the pilot is adjusting the rifle scope. I'll try to find it again.

[Silverbolt 104]

I have a pic in a book of a F15 pilot sitting in his seat with the crew chief beside him and the pilot is adjusting the rifle scope. I'll try to find it again.

 

Mr. Magoo`s F-15?

Edited October 27, 2007 by Silverbolt