FMs and the Expansion Pack

[+peter01 2]

Well, TK has made major changes to the Flight Model.....and AI, far improved stalls/spins - and higher stalls change the game dynamics.

 

There have been a few questions, so no, my existing FMs won't work properly with the Addon. Neither will any others done before this Addon.

 

Most/all will fly, but all will feel very "sluggish" and some may hardly work.

 

And if you do the converse, for example, put TKs new FMs into the previous version, they too will feel sluggish! As I said, TK has made major changes.

 

There are some options, that require varying degrees of work.

 

They can for example be "converted" with some effort together with the new stall stuff. And with then higher stall speeds (now the default in the game I think) and with different AI, the AI/player balance needs new work and testing.

 

Or they could be redone.

 

Or could be combination of the above over time.

 

I'm still undecided at the moment about what to do about these options.

 

Although extremely happy with the new game, to be honest, not so motivated at present moving forward with the Addon and making changes...all my testing frustrates me, I have an issue with a particular aspect of the new AI. I just find I keep going back to the previous version...

 

But the Addon is very highly recommended. FMs are best yet in any WW1 game, such a pleasure flying the Camels and Dr1. On the whole the AI is fantastic, far far better than TKs previous version, better than mine - more interesting - and can easily be made even both harder and more interesting too. So many major and minor improvements its very hard to list them - collision modelling is good now, some stress modelling, damage modelling bettre (you won't get soft landings I think!), engine starts etc. So many other things too.

Edited October 23, 2007 by peter01

[+streakeagle 871]

I wouldn't start modding the addon until after it has been out for awhile.

Typically, after a new release, a few major bugs are found and a hotfix patch is released.

It would be a shame to put a lot of work into new mods only to find a hotfix breaks or fixes what you were modding.

[Bandy 3]

Peter,

While I hear and share your excitement re: The Expansion (now that I've installed it properly, it's a gem), my condolences on the incompatibility of the last generation FMs. For a while there (well, maybe a very fleeting thought), I thought TK was waiting to see what your "final" FMs looked like before he released The Expansion.

 

On some points I disagree with you on the AI and the damage modeling. It could be just the return to the stock Green to Ace settings, but some AI fly like they are pithed (a biology vivisection term where you "disable" the CNS of a frog...). Others are down-right squirmy, and a real challenge to nail before you run out of ammo, BUT I still think your AI had the devil in them... Also, had the right upper 1/3rd of a wing taken off while in a DR1, and it could not maintain airworthiness, THEN had the same thing happen in a Camel and managed to land it with some difficulty. A minor issue of distributing lift, I think, but still...

 

Once you find your second wind (if it isn't already on the 3rd or 4th go-round) I can hardly wait to see how you implement the new flight dynamics... :fans:

 

PS: I have limited experience (so far) in flying all the new Camels one after the other, but what is up with the 130??? Now THAT is a nervous flyer... I also miss the spinning mini spar prop... Or is it just my install?

[Firecage 1]

Peter, I had the same feeling when I tried to combine a few add on mod planes ot the mix and its didn't work real well. At the same time I am SOOOOO happy to see a camel that flies on Hard FM the way I have wanted to see it. THe Dr1 is my dream plane and I prefer it over anything else in the expansion pack. Its just a mean kill machine.

 

The AI has wierd moments and I cant seem to pin down whats wrong. I am seeing the same thign you mentioned in another post, once you get position on them they have a hi tendency to flatten out and stop trying to survive. My thought is the games code SOMEWHERE is calling more rookie pilots and not enough of the other end near ace/vet pilots, or its just calling up a run away code set too often.

 

I have YET to see a soft landing happen

 

Guns still seem to hot for my taste but maybe its just me?

[+peter01 2]

Bandy, re " A minor issue of distributing lift, I think, but still..." on damage modelling for player plane, no. Its not a matter of this at all, see my very detailed post on this. The "decision" on damage modelling is based around effects. People like wings coming off on AI, unfortunately that means it will also happen to the player, but with different damage effects. The AI is destoyed, you are not. You can fly with little lift, not always, but one wing here or there doesn't necessary make it unflyable. Its true in OFF too, probably most games that this problem if they have planes with more than one wing.

 

Don't know about 130. The FM is the same, except I think the EmptyInertia, you could try changing this to whats in the 110 or 150. Disadvantage is it will then be like the 110 or 150!

 

I'd agree with "BUT I still think your AI had the devil in them... ", there are reasons why, quite complex. But you have mentioned this several times, so maybe time for me to comment or explain .....

 

But first, just quickly about "good ai". Its aggression, capabability, interesting, and well behaved (not looping and stalling especially) . These are ALLL different. The latter is the most important and hardest thing, and you have to admit mine rarely do that, whilst previously most did. These AI aspects are all different, and you can use that too - for example you could make a particular AI plane aggressive, well behaved, interesting but not capable. Or capable, well behaved, interesting but not aggresive. And different for different AI planes.

 

So why they are so tough (and they could have been more tough too!) - keep in mind tough is all above, not just aggression - and why I did it like this. It was always going to change, and be more balanced, but I knew TK was going to make AI changes so it was going to wait. Also have explained this in many posts....even when i was trying to decide how to do it, whilst developing it.

 

1. I made them aggressive/capable/interesting/well behaved to show it could be done - the AI were the weakest part of the game. It was the perception of many, including those that stopped playing the game. Funnily enough, the AI may be one of the best things about this game! The intention was always to redo, due to impending changes by TK, and depending if stall speeds were higher (you can then make the AI more interesting - its partly what you are seeing with the Addon).

 

2. There was a problem with "Veteran" and "Ace" skill levels in the game - they are actually less capable then "Regular". I raised this with TK. Because of that specifically, because of 1. above, and people wouldn't see as many vets or aces, I chose to make the "Regulars" the toughest. The result: most of my AI planes you meet fight like Voss (esp the regulars, the most common)! I could have posted an alternative Aircraftobject.ini to change skill levels so that vets and aces were the best, but decided on balance because of 1. that for the moment this was the best way.

 

TK has made some really wonderful changes to the AI in the expansion. Its now even more possible to make Ace/Vets fight better, its easier to make FMs in which the AI is well behaved (stalls and looping have been addressed to large extent) so the hardest part of the FM work is now reduced - I used to spend 90% of my time on AI flying the planes properly!! It may even be possible to introduce some quirks for the player whilst not affecting the AI.

 

So with the new expansion I hope it will be easier to make all AI more of a challenge especially making them interesting, with vets and aces quite a bit harder, novices etc easier, ie, more variety (this time I will post an alternative aircraftobject.ini with changed skill level factors if necessary). At the moment TK has not optimised many of the AI - again not just talking tough.

 

But, when I'm doing FMs, the most time consuming and boring part is the testing of the AI. The upside to that was while doing it, you had some great 1:1 dogfights whilst watching the AI then tweaking it etc seeing the results of changes. Unfortunately with the Expansion, the AI gives up once you are on its tail. Its like half a fight - they are very good at attack, woeful in evasion. Sort of complete opposite to before. Most won't notice this initially in missions or campaigns, but its there. And its just frustrating to me, takes away that enjoyment.

 

Have asked TK about this, and I hope it can be fixed. If not, I won't be playing this version, despite its many great qualities. i'll just retofit the new fms/planes to the older version game rather than the reverse. i'll probably be playing alone, but there you go...

Edited October 24, 2007 by peter01

[gambit168 27]

I was just trying 2 get the N ew planes in2 my old great "just how i wanted it FE", something is a miss , cos it just crashes now , replaces all the stuff back again still no joy, SICK AS A PARROT BOUT THAT

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT

so now looks like i will be addin ALL my old 1005 working stuff 2 the new 1 instead, which I'm sure go crash out at some point ALSO

100% compatible IT AIN'T, At LEAST not when trying to copy and paste from new to old , which is the whole basis of the games concept I thought , seemless modding , back and forth !!! BOO HISS

AND WITH LARGER FIELDS it feels like walking uphill just after a big breakfast

Every camel Ive tagged , just sits like a HARRY TATE , must like the taste of hot lead

Edited October 24, 2007 by gambit168

[+TexMurphy 0]

peter

 

I would definatly wait a bit till there is a patch out. Let things stabilize before you take on that huge project.

 

Then what I think would be a good way to go about it is.

 

1. Fix the FMs

2. Create two default AIs 1 fast plane AI and 1 slow plane AI that work well enough on most planes

3. Fine tune specialized AI for each plane.

 

Honestly Id be happy enough with step 1 and 2.

 

Tex

[+p10ppy 2]

I have limited experience (so far) in flying all the new Camels one after the other, but what is up with the 130??? Now THAT is a nervous flyer... I also miss the spinning mini spar prop... Or is it just my install?

 

Re the Clerget Camel

try adding this to the Data.ini under [FlightControl]

AutoTrimLimit=0.0

 

all the other Camels have it and it seems to calm it down a bit

May be some control hack to make the rotarys useable....

 

and the fuelpump on the spar doesn't spin on any of them :(

I had a quick go at hacking it with a engine data entry but it doesn't seem to be rigged that way... maybe with a patch

[+Tailspin 3]

The way I get the 130 to fly is manipulate that blip switch. Throttle down and nose comes down. Let go and she rises. Elevator response smooths out some at a certain speed. In fact if you are having trouble lining up a shot, throttle down as you take final aim. She'll stop bobbin' so much and you can get off a decent shot. I like the tail-heavy feeling with the new FM. Stalls, spins. When an enemy A/C "dies" it rolls over and spirals in like it should. I'm amazed how good the new models look on my old beater of a system. So far, so good. Bound to be bugs and glitches and that usually brings another patch but I've started trying to bring some of my mods up to Expansion standards. The Airfield MG AAA mod works OK for the new Verdun terrain. The Bridges for Verdun mod does not. TK has added his own bridges here and there and they are not placed the same as mine so I have to sort that out. Then there's the totally new terrain. Such is life as a Thirdwire modder.

[Guest capun]

I did a quick comparison between the new Camel (150 I think) and our Camel. Here's some of the differences I found in the Data ini files

 

[FlightControl]

// New Variables

SideslipDamper=0.0

AutoTrimLimit=0.0

 

[AIData]

// New Variable

MinAIQuality=Regular

 

[Fuselage]

// New Variable

Cnb=-0.0010

// New - Table Removed

CLaMachTableNumData=4

CLaMachTableDeltaX=0.10

CLaMachTableStartX=0.00

CLaMachTableData=1.000,1.000,1.000,1.000

// End of section

// New - Table Removed

CmqMachTableNumData=4

CmqMachTableDeltaX=0.10

CmqMachTableStartX=0.00

CmqMachTableData=1.000,1.000,1.000,1.000

// End of section

// New Section

CnbAlphaTableNumData=37

CnbAlphaTableDeltaX=10.00

CnbAlphaTableStartX=-180.00

CnbAlphaTableData=-18.100,-17.955,-17.524,-16.820,-15.866,-14.689,-13.325,-11.816,-10.208,-8.550,-1.286,-1.147,-1.000,-0.856,-0.500,0.000,0.500,0.866,1.000,0.625,0.500,1.083,2.375,-1.067,-4.667,-1.533,-1.379,-8.550,-10.208,-11.816,-13.325,-14.689,-15.866,-16.820,-17.524,-17.955,-18.100

// End of section

// New Variable?

DamageNode[001]=

 

[TopWingLeft]

// Not used Variables

Cyb=-0.0013

Cnp=0.0001

// Not used Tables

ClpAlphaTableNumData=15

ClpAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00

ClpAlphaTableStartX=-28.00

ClpAlphaTableData=1.761,1.427,1.161,0.963,0.834,0.773,0.780,0.856,1.000,1.212,1.493,1.842,2.259,2.745,3.298

ClrAlphaTableNumData=15

ClrAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00

ClrAlphaTableStartX=-28.00

ClrAlphaTableData=-2.068,-1.685,-1.301,-0.918,-0.534,-0.151,0.233,0.616,1.000,1.384,1.767,2.151,2.534,2.918,3.301

CnpAlphaTableNumData=15

CnpAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00

CnpAlphaTableStartX=-28.00

CnpAlphaTableData=-6.019,-4.019,-2.631,-1.705,-1.107,-0.719,-0.432,-0.142,0.255,0.863,1.794,3.168,5.119,7.804,11.405

// End of section

// New Table Section

StallLiftTableNumData=37

StallLiftTableDeltaX=10.00

StallLiftTableStartX=-180.00

StallLiftTableData=0.000,-0.013,-0.080,-0.310,-0.213,-0.145,-0.023,-0.048,-0.020,0.000,0.026,0.074,0.047,0.381,0.726,1.588,0.440,0.619,0.993,1.081,0.470,0.517,0.541,0.392,0.512,0.390,-0.052,0.000,0.004,-0.010,-0.119,-0.002,-0.017,-0.038,-0.038,-0.013,0.000

StallDragTableNumData=37

StallDragTableDeltaX=10.00

StallDragTableStartX=-180.00

StallDragTableData=0.001,0.008,0.021,0.043,0.082,0.123,0.171,0.227,0.292,0.367,0.451,0.562,0.689,0.825,0.937,1.018,1.142,1.122,1.000,1.009,1.491,1.168,1.002,0.763,0.636,0.538,0.447,0.360,0.292,0.227,0

171,0.123,0.082,0.043,0.021,0.008,0.001

StallXacShiftTableNumData=37

StallXacShiftTableDeltaX=10.00

StallXacShiftTableStartX=-180.00

StallXacShiftTableData=-0.480,-0.440,-0.492,-0.354,-0.340,-0.339,-0.323,-0.301,-0.281,-0.240,-0.199,-0.179,-0.157,-0.141,-0.140,-0.097,-0.161,0.006,0.000,-0.002,-0.048,-0.096,-0.108,-0.113,-0.128,-0.125,-0.104,0.004,-1.191,-1.186,-2.023,-1.646,-0.610,-0.470,-0.586,-0.439,-0.480

Chord=1.37

//End of Section

 

[Engine]

// New Variables

BlipSwitch=TRUE

BlipThreshhold=0.5

// End

// New Variables

PropPFactorCoefficient=1.0

DamagedPropNodeName=

// End

 

[LeftElevator]

// New Variables?

RemoveNode[001]=

// End

 

[LeftMachineGun]

// New Variables

Synchronized=TRUE

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

// End

[gambit168 27]

Im not so Keen on the camel i flew the 130's fm

If you watch this it looks quite easy to hold it straight & level

youtube camel

i couldn't keep it on the horizon at all

Edited October 24, 2007 by gambit168

[+Tailspin 3]

Hmmmm....just did some more missions in the 130hp version. I must've been thinking of one of the other Camels when I posted earlier. Although I did get a couple of kills, that thing made me seasick when I tried to fly level. I'll try P10ppy's suggestion.

 

 

edit...Thanks P10ppy! That did the trick...just like you said. Geeze...I gotta put down that crack pipe.

 

 

[Firecage 1]

Adding the AutoTrimLimit=0.0 to the 130 FM seems to have settled it down alot. Im not carrying a barf bag anymore

Edited October 25, 2007 by Firecage

[Bandy 3]

Yes, thanks for the Camel fix... was hoping it just wasn't me

 

Onto the SE5...

 

It handles like a STONE. Has anyone tried to take off with bombs onboard? If you don't start with the throttle at 100%, you end up still on the ground with no runway left. Even with the throttle wide open at the absolute inception of the mission, you barely make it off the ground in time.

 

In flight, where do you start with the disparaging remarks on its handling traits. It accelerates and climbs poorly, you really have to push to get it into a dive, and it stalls at a significantly higher speed than any other a/c I've flown so far in the Expansion. Some of these traits are likely near the mark with the real historical a/c, BUT I cannot believe that an aircraft so widely used and relatively successful actually flew like that, till the end of the war!!!

 

Agree/disagree???

Edited October 25, 2007 by B Bandy RFC

[+TexMurphy 0]

Yes, thanks for the Camel fix... was hoping it just wasn't me

 

Onto the SE5...

 

It handles like a STONE. Has anyone tried to take off with bombs onboard? If you don't start with the throttle at 100%, you end up still on the ground with no runway left. Even with the throttle wide open at the absolute inception of the mission, you barely make it off the ground in time.

 

In flight, where do you start with the disparaging remarks on its handling traits. It accelerates and climbs poorly, you really have to push to get it into a dive, and it stalls at a significantly higher speed than any other a/c I've flown so far in the Expansion. Some of these traits are likely near the mark with the real historical a/c, BUT I cannot believe that an aircraft so widely used and relatively successful actually flew like that, till the end of the war!!!

 

Agree/disagree???

 

I might have a bad memory but now the SE5 is extreamly hard to pitch down... has it always been like that?? should it be like that??

[JediMaster 451]

Many of the planes, especially the new ones, have massive nose up tendencies that you have to fight.

 

For the Camel 130, I watched the plane in exterior view and it's the elevator that's the problem. In the 110 or 150, you pull back or push forward on the stick and release and the elevator returns to neutral (0 degrees deflection).

On the 130, If you pull back and release, it returns to what seems to be 5 or so degrees up. If you push forward and release, it returns to about 5 degrees down. It won't return to 0 degrees. That trim statement may fix it, but I don't know if that's a line missing from it that the 110 and 150 have or if it's merely a band-aid to fix the real problem somewhere else.

[gambit168 27]

I Trashed my FE install tryin to copy n paste the addon bits over, so now i gotta do it all in the ADDON ,

So there i am testin a skin for the Junker D1 , and i tell the guys ground attack so they roll in and do the bizz

but from then on they are flyin round with there wheels on the ground, full bore gunning they engines!!!!

BUT the AEG's i took up , are flying fine!!

I think that runs deeper than just the Junkers D1's Fm , cos surely it would have gone 2 ground with the bomb load, not after the strike

[Heck 496]

Onto the SE5...

 

you really have to push to get it into a dive

 

In the data.ini change the elevator deflection from MaxDeflection=15.0 to

 

MaxDeflection=30.0

 

Haven't seen any other planes with different max/min deflections, only this one, but I just started to look.

 

I think I'll spend some time this evening playing around with the SideslipDamper= AutoTrimLimit= parameters just for fun, setting them to different values to see what they do when I add adjusted values to different airplanes by adding them to planes that don't have them. If it tamed the behavior of the Clerget Camel, could different values change the behavior of some planes that were noted for flat spinning, like the Pfalz D-III?

[+p10ppy 2]

good idea HecK :yes:

 

keep us informed of your results

the sooner we understand the new parametres the sooner the mods can be upgraded/new ones made

 

if you get time (and are interested) theres all the new stall tables to play with too

[Heck 496]

good idea HecK :yes:

 

keep us informed of your results

the sooner we understand the new parametres the sooner the mods can be upgraded/new ones made

 

if you get time (and are interested) theres all the new stall tables to play with too

 

 

Sorry to report that the SideslipDamper= function only responds to positive numbers. If you increase it from 0.0 you wind up with a plane that flies like its on railroad tracks, ie: as soon as you release the rudder it snaps back to straight and level. I tried setting it to -1.0, but it had no effect, it acted like it was set to 0.0.

 

My time for experimentation is slim, so right now I'm mashing together data from the new data.ini's of planes with some of the addon on aircraft (Pfalz, Nieuport 17) to see if I can get them to fly in the new sim. Perfectly willing to fiddle with the stall data, but my knowledge of aerodynamics is small, so I'd just be doodling...

[Gr.Viper 131]

And Nieuports could also use the new fall-apart feature

[Littlejack 0]

Is the terrain in E1 supposed to drop off rapidly at the edges (its set to 'Far')