Lockheed to supply 18 F-16s to Pakistan

[JediMaster 451]

Don't assume "democracy = friendly". Just look at the whole Palestinian/Hamas mess.

 

However, it is true that some cultures are anti-democracy because it goes against their belief in theocratic rule. They further believe any attempt to create a secular gov't must fail and is in itself an act against God. This makes things rather difficult.

[+Jug 99]

No, USAF, certain countrie's do not have the right to have nuke's, India is NOT an iresponsible, unstable, power hungry country. Like I said they do not even have first strike as their nuclear policy. Did anywhere in my post's I indicate Iran, North Korea, Libya, Syria or their ilk have my support ? NO ! But, India IS different, it does not have an anti-western attitude and itself is a victim of terrorist attack's, more Indian's have been killed by terrorist attack's than all during 9/11 so think again if you think a country that with a Hindu majority, that IS strong, is not hated by radical Islamist's, I'm not speaking FOR any and every country having the right to have nuke's, maybe I should have worded my initial post differently, but as my previous post indiacate's it was support for India and not some radical country.

 

 

Not sure I am qualified to even join in this discussion, but I couldn't agree more that India is the region's most stable and responsible government. The US, when we have parted political or diplomatic company with India, has failed to acknowledge that India is not necessarily on the western side or eastern side, they are merely on their own side. It is the right of every nation to exercise their foreign policy to meet their own internal needs and objectives. Israel is quite famous for doing the same thing without the diplomatic backlash from the US that India has had to deal with. China with its overpopulation and associated problems does sit right next door to India with its overpopulation and associated problems. This is a geographic fact and the situation could become critical in a very short period over events. Both nations must tread lightly. It is in India's strategic best interests to nurture their relationship with the US for that reason alone, especially with the self-destruction of the Soviet Union. Pakistan sees a creature in the closet every time India wants to purchase weapons, but that appears to be a political twist to the true fact that China is of more concern than Pakistan to India. Most of their arms purchases are to address that situation and most of the political maneuvering is looking for allies for the same scenario.

 

Since this is a flight sim forum, wouldn't an imaginary conflict between India and China be fun.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Jug

[+ghostrider883 516]

the true fact that China is of more concern than Pakistan to India. Most of their arms purchases are to address that situation and most of the political maneuvering is looking for allies for the same scenario.

 

yeah, that' the reason why the airbases in eastern India are being upgraded to base Su-30MKIs(currently airbases in the east house MiG-21s and MiG-27s & a lone Su-30MKI sqdn). The Navy & Air Force base at Andaman & Nicobar Islands are being upgraded to keep a watch on the Chinese activity especially in Burma.

[+ghostrider883 516]

Alright, here's the article

Lal Masjid’s new chief takes old line: democracy is no solution

 

Maulana Amir Siddique, the head of Lal Masjid and nephew of Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi, who was killed last July in the Pakistan Army operation on the mosque-madarsa complex, told The Indian Express: “In democracy, the weightage of votes by an illiterate or a drug addict is the same as that of an educated, pious person. Numerical majority doesn’t mean that the capable are being elected.”

Though the Lal Masjid has been supported by various influential parties in the past, including General Zia-ul Haq, Maulana Siddique claims they are not with any political formation.

 

“We feel that democracy is not the solution, because it’s the writ of Allah that is supreme and not the writ of the people,” he says. However, he qualifies his “anti-democracy” stance by saying he believes in an individual’s democratic rights of freedom.

 

The Maulana adds that “violence always begets violence, it never achieves peace”. “The siege of Lal Masjid was not an action, but a reaction... in our Islamic traditions, there is no room for violence,” he says. what a joke :rofl:

[DJ_Viper 0]

The Maharaja wanted Kashmir to be independent and was not willing to join either Pakistan or India. It was only when Pakis occupied half of Kashmir, he requested the Indian govt for help. If the Mahraja wanted to join the Indian Union, he would have requested for Indian forces much before half of his state was lost to the Pakis. Hell, When the first Indian C-47s landed at Srinagar airfield, it was in danger of being over run by Paki forces. Read about the heroics of Major Somnath Sharma, 4th Btn, Kumaon Regt., Indian Army.

"The enemy are only 50 yards from us. We are heavily outnumbered. We are under devastating fire. I shall not withdraw an inch but will fight to our last man and our last round."

 

 

You really think that the enemy is within 50 yards and you have time to write a detailed request and show off your bravery? Specially when you are out numbered….very interesting. You have just made a joke out of the art of warfare :). When someone sends a request, the help doesn’t get there till many days since we are talking 1947. Back in the days, India didn’t have F 22 Raptors if I am correct :). The war was between Indian ARMY and Pakistani tribesmen and Not Pak army. This can be verified online at un.com by the United Nation. Pakistan army was very small, didn’t have weapons etc enough to do a full scale war with India. Heck, they only had 2 airbases partially working at that time. As soon as the result of the elections came out, Maharaja consulted with New Delhi. The only way out was to keep his kingdom as a hindu kingdom (against the will of 91% people who went through democratic elections). So, agsinst the will of 91% population that was muslim (what a slap on Democracy there), he agreed to merge the country with India. Indian forces were already ready (they didn’t have modern air lift capability back then, so they needed time to get to Kashmir), by the time had begun moving, 3 or 4 letters had already been sent to the Indian government declaring the urgency and asking them for help against “tribesmen” with rifles……(great!!!). Thus the whole issue and then later on, there was a war since India had taken over Kashmir and Pak was trying to follow since it was them who needed to merge with Kashmir based on the free elections help by the British and the outcome of elections and due to 91% people proposing it.

 

 

 

 

“1947 : Whose forces went on a killing, looting, raping spree in Kashmir?”

 

 

 

Ok, so what is the point? There were mass killings on both sides in 1947. The emphasis is on “both sides” :). Hundreds of thousands of people were killed moving from India to Pak and Pak to India by both sides.

 

As of today, you would hear bombings in Pak and all. But what you would NOT hear is, that in Hindu, Seekh, Jewish or Christian population, 2000 people were burned to death every 8 months. Look at the state of Gujraat in India. How many thousands of Muslims are burnt every year. Again, its public information but no one would tell India anything since it’s a huge economic partner and one of the biggest markets :). Also, Pak or any other country on this planet does not have a political party whose motto and election agenda is “exterminate muslim population and also make Pak surrender”. These motto’s were from BJP and gave them power multiple times.

 

Again, I am not siding with Pak or India. I just don’t like to see facts presented inaccurately. I have a lot of friends who are Indians and after many discussions, they wonder why things were taught differently to them. I think a political party who wishes to ‘exterminate’ hundreds of millions of people, Pak or any country, the local minority population will be threatened by them just as bad as from Jihadi’s since these are hindu fundamentalists and have killed hundreds of thousands of Indian muslims in Gujraat and Kashmir in years…but, if these people who are getting killed were to do something as a result, they will be called Islamic terrorist. What about the people who are burning thousands if innocent people? Shouldn’t they be designated the same? Another example would be, IRA bombed the sh** out of the UK for their Irish cause. Why were they not declared as terrorists? Why people in Sri Lanka and Nepal (Hindu majority) hate India? Due to its proxy wars in those areas to keep the beloved ones in power.

 

 

The answer is, Fundamental religious fanatics exist in every society. Pak has a lot more visibility due to the war on terror and due to it being right next door to Afghanistan and being a Nuclear power. If Pak was Nepal or Bhotan, no one would care. Another point is, after reviewing your posts many times, I don’t see any acceptance that India did anything wrong EVER :) and its always the Pak. That’s sad. We all know it. People in U.S have feelings about war in Iraq. We all support the troops with our hearts and souls but you would probably hear that yea, somewhere things got messed up and we will fix them. But from you gentlemen from India, I have never seen that yes, India messed up too in Kashmir or Gujraat and we should all have a dialogue and fix it, by default its always the Pak :).

 

Also, post 1947 elections, the whole Kashmir deal started off when the Maharaj did NOT accept public vote against him. It was just then when he invited the Indians without any legit authority thus the Pak jumped on the band wagon too. Trust me, if per your suggestions, if this was Pak who started all this, the UN resolutions would’ve condemned Pak, not asking India to leave and follow the people’s will. How could you neglect 91% population’s will? It’s in many ways against India’s own democratic process.

 

“1965 : Who crossed the LOC and whose fighters caused downing of the defending IAF Vampires on the first day?”

 

 

Pak did shoot down your vampires but didn’t cross the LOC first. There had been on going battles on small scale for months and one day, it turned out to be a full scale war. The way you are sounding in your question is that Pak attacked you, you guys were sleeping and phew, what a nightmare :). The fact is, both of you were on the brink of war for months and many times every year. Does it matter who fired the first shot that turned into a war (after 1000 shots had already been fired over a month but fell short of a full scale war :) )? Both of you were, how we call it in a de-facto state of war for many months before even September 06, 1965.

 

“1971: Which side made pre-emptive strikes on almost all major Indian airfields?”

 

A small country of this size, doesn’t have a lot of options. If Israelis have waited for just three days in their war, instead of attacking and reducing the air threat of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. There would’ve been a lot of damage to Israel since they would loose control of the situation. Same goes for Pak, small country, lacks strategic depth and conventional comparisons. Their survival is to neutralize Indian air force on the ground since if it starts flying, the numerical ratio will crush Pak AF in less then 48 hours. So, you are asking the Paki’s to be ethical in a war and write you a notice that we are now in a war zone, we give you 48 hours to do whatever you want to do and then we will attack your air fields? LOL! We are talking about, say 36 combat squadrons on just as many air fields VS what? 14 on 7 different airfields or may be less? See the strategic gap there?

 

1987 - Force built up :P. If you remember, the Pak president flew unexpectedly to India to watch a cricket match to create a friendly environment and defuse tension because Indian forces had strike orders that same evening. Due to that ‘Cricket Diplomacy’, they would’ve looked really bad attacking a country who’s president’s sitting in India watching a Cricket Match :). So, they stopped the invasion so to speak. You keep forgetting, India can walk all over Pak in less then a month. It’s like California VS. the Rest of the U.S (size comparison). So, get your facts straight on things :).

 

 

 

 

“1999 : Who occupied the Kargil heights & returned badly mutliated bodies of Indian soldiers?

 

 

 

Ok. Kargil AKA Siachin (for people who don’t know the situation), is the highest battle field that man had ever fought on. 16000 to 21000 feet on just Ice -20 to -40 degrees Celsius. Each side, every winter, tries to get high and above the other since when you are sitting higher then your enemy, you can see more and you have the whole enemy brigade under your artillery due to the height factor. So, in Kargil, the same thing happened that had been happening since the introduction of Siachin factor for almost 3 decades now. This time, Pak army planned (just like Indians plan too every year), to control the heights, by doing that, they wanted to increase the area that they cover (it’s a disputed zone, in fact the whole Kashmir is, read on un.com), so to take this initiative, the Pak army went further into the glacier based areas and established camps. It would’ve worked out if they were going to have air support but they played the wrong cards. Due to the lack of air support, and due to Indian AF being involved, they suffered heavy casualties. This was just one of the operations-gone-bad that both sides during tension times, establish and proceed with, to gain military advantage. The fact that Indian PM threatened to respond with a nuke attack basically ended this mess and Pak had to back off of it (whatever happened to the policy of No Nuclear Strike First protocol by India :) ). So, I am not sure how this is anyone’s fault, it was an operation that went bad, like many other that Indian and Pak army executed every year and year round. Not sure what is the point that you are trying to make….you guys have been in war like situation for half a century so these things are part of 'war like' situation.

 

 

 

 

2002(almost): Who masterminded the attack on Indian parliament, the very symobol of our democracy?”

 

 

 

I am glad you asked this. Since unlike the Indian media, you would get an interesting answer. This was actually done by the locals (radical fractions in India with the help of an organization that has been participating in Kashmir for years). This organizations’ members are 90% Kashmiris. Same people who’s wives, daughters and mother have been raped for decades by the Indian soldiers and their sons, brothers and grand fathers killed by the Indian army just because they were men (see united nations human right record and violations in Kashmir by the indian forces)….so again, you are not facing a threat like U.S or Israel or the Europe faces from Islamic radicals, you have created your own issues and you don’t want to fix them. For this incident of parliament attack or even an incident where two people died because of diarrhea, it is immediately blamed on Pak and media just likes it.

 

 

Again a friendly advise for India. Make peace within your own population and you will be fine. Your country can grow a lot more if you didn’t have these issues. You can’t kill 500,000 people in less then 10-12 years and then to make up for it, you offer 2 seats in 10 good schools for Kashmiri people. It just doesn’t cut it.

 

“Who is training terrorists at training camps and sending them across the border to kill Indians and running a proxy war?”

 

 

Who is sending RAW agents to Pak in Baluchistan and into Afghanistan and having destabilizing meetings in Dushanbee (kazakhastan I think?) with the Russian FSB J? I think I am going to stay quiet on these sensitive topics since I don’t think I should be spreading knowledge all over but hope ya’all got the point which is, every country tries to destabilize their enemies through espionage efforts. Prior to 9-11, the majority of the blasts in Pak were not done through the Islamic radicals as they were buddies with Pak Gov’t. It was the Indian intelligence who was doing it. Common scare tactics?

 

 

 

1980 – see above. All nations try to destabilize their enemies. Just an FYI, the ISI portion in this was to provide support for money. The Punjabi;s from India in the state of Punjab wanted to carry this out and have a ‘Khalistaan’ a seekh religion oriented country. As of today, I know some here in the U.S, they are still working on that cause. So, blaming someone from the outside is actually funny to me when the problem still lies within your own state of Punjaab :). You remember one plane hi-jack where Pak allowed it to land and re fuel? Why don’t you talk about the massive killings and burning of live people in past many years in Gujraat? What was the estimation, half a million people burnt to death in past 18 years?

 

Back to your point, Pak is not training any terrorists. I can almost guarantee you that. If there was anything like that, the best of the best, the U.S special forces would be on the ground years ago to destroy any camps if they existed.

 

 

The issue is that Pak is not doing enough to push AQ back to Afghanistan or capture them recently. If you review the sensitivity of the matter you would know why. It destabilizes them a lot. They have already had 600+ bomb blasts in past one year. But I do think Musharraf will need to do one huge last push to get rid of these people who are a threat to every country including Pak (in fact mainly Pak right now since the U.S and others are far away). So, its time for a all out assault in Wazirastan on AQ areas. It will be nice if Pak does it themselves and saves the pain of impating U.S and Pak friendship. I think they need to get on it.

 

 

 

 

 

“How many times has an Indian General rasied a military coup in India?”

 

 

None. India is a democratic country with its 80+% Hindu majority and has a great track record of staying democratic. Although, treatment of minorities is utterly inhumane and Hindu majority can basically do whatever they want to in the name of the religion. (Remember Babari Mosque?, one of the biggest and historical monument for muslims that was destroyed in the heart of the biggest cities in India by a mob of hundreds of thousands of religion loving BJP fanatics many of them were in civilian clothes but represented the highest ranks in the Gov’t and the police and other law enforcements agencies were told not to step in :) until after . Post 9-11, there was a trigger of hate towards Muslims in the west, specially in the U.S, which is understandable, BUT, I know it for a fact from my friends in law enforcement that they had strict orders to protect muslim families and their mosques at every cost. Now this is democracy. I was actually in NY at that time and worked pretty close to the towers and I suffered the pain, saw loved ones disappeared and destruction that you would not imagine by 19 fanatics who represent may be less than 1% of one of one of the top three religions of the worlds… but the point is, in any religion, you have it and some are visible and some are not.

 

 

 

“Agreed. But things are improving and will keep on improving in the future. Its not like the old days where western world had an impression of my country to be full of homeless, poor people.

During the Tsunami, the Navy & Air Force had sufficent resouces to take care of the areas hit by the Tsunami, that's why it released some of its ships to help other countries. (Not because it wanted to deny its own people food & shelter)In case you didn't know, the Air Force base in the A& N islands was badly hit by the Tsunami. The Air Force lost may personnel and their famlies. Yet crews of some Mi-8s based at Car Nicobar base ,instead of helping their own families, got airborne immediately and were flying missions to help stranded people. Interviews of such heroic aircrews were shown on the TV. It was touching to see.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never doubted the air force or the Navy’s capabilities. They always have the most money available to them. It’s the poor people that I worry about. It’s funny, “things are changing”? Well they haven’t changed until the October of 07 the last time we saw all this in real life VS 10 years ago. There are new buildings and a growth in the middle class, but the real poor (hundreds of millions) are still getting poorer by the day. Read human rights reports gathered by the U.N and poverty index for average people.

 

 

 

 

“What if a fundamentalist, taliban loving (taliban are the illegitimate child of paki govt & ISI) anti-US govt comes to power? US will still haev access to those F-16s?”

 

 

 

Correction: Taliban, AKA Mujahedeen were created and trained by the CIA, ISI, some part of weapons or training was provided by the Israel and Arab intelligence agencies and from China. After the cold war, when Russia was basically divided and the cold war ended, none of the above really cared to do the cleanup (The U.S learned from it and thus we are doing the cleanup in Iraq without just leaving to avoid the same mistake). So, thus, the closest ties to Mujahedeen or AKA Taliban were with the Pakistanis since they were the on the front and right next door. Pak like any other country used these to install a government that favors them. Later, some of these mujahedeen went to india to help Kashmiris in Kashmir. But, the key is, without internal support you can’t do these gorilla type operations and they had that support from Kashmiri people in India since they still want to be independent and were denied this right even with a 91 % majority in 1947. So, for America, the Taliban pose a real and a different type of threat. For India, the issue is within the country. Give people the right to live freely the way the British agreed to and you wouldn’t have this problem.

 

 

 

So, back to the point, a Taliban flying an F 16 to India…Let me ask you. So, say a BJP loving pilot in Indian AF (there are hundreds of thousands of them who participated in Gujraat and in Babarri masjid’s destruction), can fly a MIG 29 into Pak and drop an A Bomb on it… think twice. You will have to steal a plane, “some how” make your way out of different Radar stations and control towers, not only that, you will need to steal an A bomb from the Bhabha atomic facility or from another one, assemble and activate it…then, connect to a Mig 29 …do you feel the complexity J? It is impossible. There are layers of communications in between and as soon as a plane starts to fly within one country’s airspace without authorization, it will be tagged as a ‘foe’ and will be shot down ASAP by the ‘Friendlies’ standard practice 101. So, now in Pak’s case, a ‘rogue’ pilot will steal an F 16 A/B from PAF Mushaf (these still can not use NW due to the technology integration btw J ), so, then this pilot somehow makes a fool out of all the military radars and the civilian radar stations and Army’s mobile radar posts. Then lands somewhere to get a Bomb (they don’t have the bombs assembled, their nukes are divided into 2 or 3 different parts, the war heads are stored in a different location then the shells in another and then the activation systems in another to make sure that no can do anything with bits and pieces, plus then there is a U.S type 2 or 3 tier structure to even access it and then U.S provided codes or a security mechanism of some sort that was secretly given to them I believe a couple of years ago ), so this pilot will have a LOT of work to do to find all that facilities, get different components and assemble a bomb and then hook it up with the greatest ever F 16 AB block 15 J which still can’t drop it and execute it. And then fly to India. Do you see any flaw in the scenario? May be not J since your focus is on a what if scenario that can not ever happen based on the complexity defined above. The army that’s responsible for security is kept separate from the rest and not only that, these guys do not know where other locations are and nor they are atomic scientists that they can assemble a bomb after breaking all three or 4 levels of security layers and multiple locations across the country J.

 

 

 

If there are rogue elements in the Pak army and the air force (I know there are sympathizers to Taliban on lower levels) , they will bomb Musharaff’s palace first instead of bombing India or any other country. They view him as an American ally and supporter and they do not want that. There was a study done today in fact on Pak and its people. It says that majority of Pak people want the fair elections and DO NOT want these religious parties to win (besides the small areas where they have illiterate people supporting them LOCALLY ofcourse.

 

 

 

 

 

“Read what the new cleric in the famed "Lal Masjid" had to say? I would have liked to quote the whole thing, but some of his comments were like : "Democracy is for fools. The vote cast by a person does not make a sense, since even a unpious man can win ."

 

Now how can you argue with a man like that? Let me see if I can find the whole report.”

 

 

 

You are right. You can not argue with a man like that. I copy that. These are mentally retarded religious lunatics. I have read Bible, Torah, Gospel and Koran. None of these books command you to kill innocent humans and all of these share A LOT with each other and a lot of the content is the same. If you read all of these, you would start to wonder why we fight in the world today since all the books above talk about similar human principals with some differences between who is the real man I guess, Muslims say, Jesus is one of the highly respected prophets but not the son of God and Mohamed is the last prophet, but they agree on Jesus being a messiah and his return at the end of the day.... and Christian say that he is the son of God and then the concept of holly spirit etc. But all the major humanitarian and other beliefs and events from Adam till pre Mohamed are the same.

 

So, people who do believe in killing and torturing innocent humans, taking over places of worship to fulfill their extreme fundamental fantasies are delirious and have mental issues, no life, lack alcohol from their daily diet and lack a hot girl friend :). If all of this is made available, I think they can get better at thinking ideas out, after all, Baywatch was the most watched show oversees, damn them Bikinis :).

 

So, yes, you can’t argue with this type of a person. Neither can you argue democratic people in millions of numbers trying to destroy other religions’ worship places or burning people of other religions :). Again fanatic idiots exist in every society but since there is no Russia anymore, the next cold or hot war is with Islamic radicals. But, India does not have similar threats from these as the U.S and the Western countries do. India tries to be U.S a lot lately specially when talking about terrorism. But, you can not do that when your people burn other people because they are from another religion. When in the U.S since 1960’s, any other religious groups were harassed? NEVER, forget about mass killings. In fact, in the U.S, minorities in many ways have more rights. There is a reason why almost all the colleges are filled with Indians who study here and then stay here to work since the U.S welcomes skilled people. So, until you fix your internal structure, you can not be like the U.S. You have created this Kashmiri mess and that’s the threat that you have from within your country and gets help from the outside. Give people the right to live free, stop burning people on per monthly or semi annually basis and you do not have an issue with anyone. I almost guarantee it. India is a big country and stable out of the most countries in that region. It’s time for you to act maturely and be the bigger country in the region.

 

“Tell me, for how many years of Pakistsan's existence have they been under "true" democratic rule? This, inspite of all the help that the US was giving. Sheeesh!!!!!!! “

 

 

 

Almost ever since independence of Pak J. I don’t think I denied the messed up political structure of Pak politics. But, I do have an issue when people start to present wrong facts and try to blame everything on others without looking at their mess. Like I said before. I don’t have anything against India and Pak. I respect both, but just state the facts correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Its very easy to blame India for all troubles in the sub-continent, but one needs to look at the mischiefs that the Pakis play and then pretend to be like saints.”

 

 

 

Read above. Again, no one’s blaming India for all problems in sub continent. The whole point of this an hour long response was to explain that EVERY country on this planet wants to survive, weaken their enemy and follow their national interest and they have a right too. I have yet to see Pak folks complaining why India needs a blue water navy? What threat do 18 F 16’s pose to almost 1200 top of the line Jets (by 2010) and to a country that’s 8 times bigger. So, again, state the facts, ,India has many problems too and Pak does too. Pak is in the media since it is the front line fighter in war on terror has lost thousands of their own soldiers in trying to fight for the U.S and have created a mess due to the WOT in their own country. I have yet to hear that UBL or any of AQ people issued a statement and threatened India. If they had any issue with you, they would’ve threatened you too and you are right next door... so, they would Not just threat the U.S, Israel, Pakistan, France and the UK. So, you are not in that list. You have different issues that you have created in your country yourself.

 

 

 

At the end, I am actually very busy. I just wanted to give people facts on what and how things were. I won’t write more on this topic. I belong to a journalist family and writing's in our blood by default (like my Russian friends have vodka in their blood by default :) ). Let’s discuss the China and India deal as proposed by another respectable member on this forum. God bless America.

[DJ_Viper 0]

My smiley faces are coming up as the word 'J'. So, the J= smiley face.

[+ghostrider883 516]

You really think that the enemy is within 50 yards and you have time to write a detailed request and show off your bravery? Specially when you are out numbered….very interesting. You have just made a joke out of the art of warfare :). When someone sends a request, the help doesn’t get there till many days since we are talking 1947. Back in the days, India didn’t have F 22 Raptors if I am correct :).

 

Please don't be-little the ultimate sacrifice made by the brave man by saying he was trying to show off . You think the govt. was mad to award him India's highest gallantry award?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/HEROISM/Sharma.html

It is because of men like these that the Indian Army is what it is today. It is not an army which refuses to accept the bodies of its own soldiers(Hint HInt!!!!)

 

 

The war was between Indian ARMY and Pakistani tribesmen and Not Pak army. This can be verified online at un.com by the United Nation.

Yeah Right !!!!!There's a huge difference between official records and the actual ground situation. One has to wonder from where and how the so-called tribesmen receive traning so soon to use small arms, mortars and heavy automatic weapons!!! They obviously were backed by Paki Army regulars.

 

Look at the state of Gujraat in India. How many thousands of Muslims are burnt every year. Again, its public information but no one would tell India anything since it’s a huge economic partner and one of the biggest markets :). Also, Pak or any other country on this planet does not have a political party whose motto and election agenda is “exterminate muslim population and also make Pak surrender”. These motto’s were from BJP and gave them power multiple times.

 

Yeah, what happened in Gujarat in 2002 was shameful. But to say that thousand of muslims get burnt every year is a heavy over statement. Let me tell, I live in the state of Gujarat(read where am in from) and here muslims don't get burnt every year, as you claim. People have moved on . So, I can't help it if you want to believe what each and every stupid Paki in some pak-panda forum has to say .

 

Pak did shoot down your vampires but didn’t cross the LOC first. There had been on going battles on small scale for months and one day, it turned out to be a full scale war. The way you are sounding in your question is that Pak attacked you, you guys were sleeping and phew, what a nightmare :).

 

Read about the 1965 Operation Gibralter & the other operation whose name I can't recall that was launched by the Pakis in 1965 . The Indian forces were caught unawares when the Pakis launched a full scale Invasion on Indian posts in Kashmir. Had India expected it, why would Vampires have been sent in the first place (knowing fully well that F-86s may be providing support to Paki Army), when India had much more capable Hunters and Mysteres stationed at the same airbase where Vampires were based. It was the urgency of the situation that forced to get the Vampires to get airborne.As it turned out, the Vampires were mauled by the F-86s, to add to the confusion, all this was happening in fading light. I guess when Pakis launched that armoured thrust in Kutch area, just before the 1965 war, they were just fooling around, right?

I am sorry to say this, but all all this crap about about US having control over American supplied Paki weapins is pure BS. Who had control over them when M-48s and M-24s rolled over Indian posts in Kutch? It happened in 1965 and it will happen again in the future as well. In 1971, Nixon's order to USN's 7th Fleet to sail into the Bay of Bengal was an attempt to bully India.

 

A small country of this size, doesn’t have a lot of options. If Israelis have waited for just three days in their war, instead of attacking and reducing the air threat of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. There would’ve been a lot of damage to Israel since they would loose control of the situation. Same goes for Pak, small country, lacks strategic depth and conventional comparisons. Their survival is to neutralize Indian air force on the ground since if it starts flying, the numerical ratio will crush Pak AF in less then 48 hours. So, you are asking the Paki’s to be ethical in a war and write you a notice that we are now in a war zone, we give you 48 hours to do whatever you want to do and then we will attack your air fields? LOL! We are talking about, say 36 combat squadrons on just as many air fields VS what? 14 on 7 different airfields or may be less? See the strategic gap there?

 

You still don't get it , do you? It was the Pakis who provoked us into starting a war and love branding us as the aggressors. Had India ben prepared, Pakis would have lost half of their attacking planes. Indian pilots were much more better than their Arab AF counterparts. US, of course, looking at Paki-land as an ally, simply believes what it has to say and that time, it of course looked at India as a Soviet ally.

 

Kargil AKA Siachin (for people who don’t know the situation), is the highest battle field that man had ever fought on. 16000 to 21000 feet on just Ice -20 to -40 degrees Celsius. Each side, every winter, tries to get high and above the other since when you are sitting higher then your enemy, you can see more and you have the whole enemy brigade under your artillery due to the height factor. So, in Kargil, the same thing happened that had been happening since the introduction of Siachin factor for almost 3 decades now. This time, Pak army planned (just like Indians plan too every year), to control the heights, by doing that, they wanted to increase the area that they cover (it’s a disputed zone, in fact the whole Kashmir is, read on un.com), so to take this initiative, the Pak army went further into the glacier based areas and established camps. It would’ve worked out if they were going to have air support but they played the wrong cards.

Kargil & Siachen are different areas. So , acc. to you,that gave pakis the the right to occupy the Indian heights around Kargil, right?. We should have just kept quiet when Pakis shelled the National Highway in an attmept to cut off Kashmir from Ladakh.Look dude, the Kargil episode was very emotioanl issue for us. Would appreicate if it is put to an end now. Satellite TV brought the war to our homes. We saw dead, bodies of our brave young men being carried off just because some stupid Paki General(read Musharraf) wanted to occupy Kargil. You realise what kind of anger that was generated in India when Sqdn Ldr Ahuja's body was handed back or when the mutliated , tortured bodies of missing soldiers of Indian patrols were returned back?

 

The fact that Indian PM threatened to respond with a nuke attack basically ended this mess and Pak had to back off of it (whatever happened to the policy of No Nuclear Strike First protocol by India :)

What Rubbish!!!!!! You think Paki-land would have kept queit had the Indian PM threatened it? What was the need to use NW anyway? The Indian Army re-captured those heights, the combined onslaught of IAF, IA made the pakis runaway. Besides, if the IAF & Army really wanted to attack Pakistan, the IAF would have tried to hit the supply lines across the LOC.

It was not threat from NWs that caused Pakis to back off. But the talk that PM Sharif recieved from President Clinton. Why do you think Sharif was furious at Mush? Why did he want to fire him from the Army Cheif's post for the Kargil fiasco? Why was his plane not allowed to land in Pakistan? Why did Mush overthrow Nawaz Sharif?

Then, there was of course the major Indian Navy buildup in Western India. May be if things got out of hand further, a repeat of Karachi Fireworks 1971 would have happened again, courtesy of the IN .

Those b@stards even refused to accept the bodies of their own soldiers. What sort of an army does that? Why was the PA Northern LI disbanded after Kargil? Surviving members were quielty decorated. Why did the Pakis not react strongly when their Atlantique was shot down by IAF MiG-21s in Kutch? Their appeal in an international court was shot down as well.

Edited January 10, 2008 by ghostrider883

[+ghostrider883 516]

This organizations’ members are 90% Kashmiris. Same people who’s wives, daughters and mother have been raped for decades by the Indian soldiers and their sons, brothers and grand fathers killed by the Indian army just because they were men (see united nations human right record and violations in Kashmir by the indian forces)….so again, you are not facing a threat like U.S or Israel or the Europe faces from Islamic radicals, you have created your own issues and you don’t want to fix them.

Well Done. Paki propoganda reproduced here perfectly. Good Job. I see no point in arguing about it. India not facing a threat from Islamic radicals? Think again!!!!! How many Indians have lost lives and loved ones in terrorist attacks? Don't try and compare threat levels from Islamic radicals. Because a life lost to these terror attacks casues as much pain to an Indian as it does to an American or an European.

Pak is not training any terrorists. I can almost guarantee you that. If there was anything like that, the best of the best, the U.S special forces would be on the ground years ago to destroy any camps if they existed.

Its akin to the Iraqi Info minister , during the American invasion of Iraq, saying "the americans are not here" What a joke!!!!! You still don't realise the Paki govt-ISI-Fundamentalist nexus , do you?

It’s the poor people that I worry about. It’s funny, “things are changing”? Well they haven’t changed until the October of 07 the last time we saw all this in real life VS 10 years ago. There are new buildings and a growth in the middle class, but the real poor (hundreds of millions) are still getting poorer by the day. Read human rights reports gathered by the U.N and poverty index for average people.

Its like you saying "the glass is half empty" and me saying "the glass is half full". Nopoint in debating further.

Almost ever since independence of Pak J

Does Iskander Mirza, Yahya Khan, Ayub Khan, Zia-ul Haq ring a bell?

So, back to the point, a Taliban flying an F 16 to India…Let me ask you. So, say a BJP loving pilot in Indian AF (there are hundreds of thousands of them who participated in Gujraat and in Babarri masjid’s destruction), can fly a MIG 29 into Pak and drop an A Bomb on it… think twice. You will have to steal a plane, “some how” make your way out of different Radar stations and control towers, not only that, you will need to steal an A bomb from the Bhabha atomic facility or from another one, assemble and activate it…then, connect to a Mig 29 …do you feel the complexity J?

If you think BJP is as radical or fanatical as Taliban you are living in a fool's paradise. Agreed their policies and thier talk are not good. I don't like them either.In case you didn't know, the BJP has Muslim,Sikh, CHristian members as well. Comparing it with the Taliban is blowing it out of proportion. Let me tell you BJP came to power not just because of "kill pakis", "Kill muslims" issue. They have done development as well. Gujarat is among the most prosperous and industrialised states in India. It has the best network of highways in the country. Agreed that it is the most volatile state interms of riots, but then again it is among the most developed states in the country. If you still want to bash the BJP & India, be my guest. I would not care less.

 

You say that Indian Arlines Fokker F.27 was allowed to land in Pakistan. But you conveniently forget that it was blown up and the hijackers allowed to escape?

Sikh extremism in Punjab in the 80s was an effort by Pakistan to destabilise India further. You think if there was popular support from within Indian Punjab, the movement would have died down as it did? A Sikh police chief is credited with putting down the unrest. Think about it.

 

IAF is not PAF. the discipline & professionalism is uncomparable. The armed forces, as has been made clear many times, by the respective service chiefs, dos not have any political affiliations. I wish the same could be said about you know who.

 

Why people in Sri Lanka and Nepal (Hindu majority) hate India? Due to its proxy wars in those areas to keep the beloved ones in power.

Proxy Wars? Was India mad to send in the IPKF to SL to maintain peace and then later fight the LTTE, in process losing many soldiers? Funny you mention Nepal because the Maoists(get the hint??) were causing trouble in Nepal, not Indians. Hell , that fight against the LTTE, as a result of which , we lost one of our greatest leaders, Mr. Rajiv Gandhi to a suicide bomber.

 

I have yet to hear that UBL or any of AQ people issued a statement and threatened India.

Actaully the already have. Zawahiri on tape has threatned India for killing thousands of muslims. he of course has bigger issues now to deal with than India

 

I could go on arguing point to point, but i see that there's no pont in it.No country is perfect. You talk as if India should become perfect in every sense and remove all of its ills in one swipe. If it could, may be India would have become another USA, which it can't.

Edited January 10, 2008 by ghostrider883

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

You sure you want India to become another US? Saturating us with crappy sitcoms, the f$&&ing View! or the propensity for producing coca-based chocolate (as opposed to milk-chocolate) FILLED with those bloody ungodly peanuts!! MADNESS!! ...but then again, I'd be peakin' to see the latest Bollywood blockbuster... :yes: I guess you taking the good with the bad

 

 

 

Just kidding you lovely yanks! I like the sitcoms! Please don't send anymore of those black helicopters over...

[JediMaster 451]

Lay off the political rhetoric, guys. No one's mind was ever changed in politics or religion by posts on the internet, so don't even make the attempt.

[column5 62]

Lay off the political rhetoric, guys. No one's mind was ever changed in politics or religion by posts on the internet, so don't even make the attempt.

 

The only thing an Internet politics thread is good for is to attack and destroy your enemies. Crush them, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

[sparkomatic 7]

The only thing an Internet politics thread is good for is to attack and destroy your enemies. Crush them, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

 

-- wait...is that what happened to Stiglr?

[column5 62]

The only thing an Internet politics thread is good for is to attack and destroy your enemies. Crush them, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

 

-- wait...is that what happened to Stiglr?

 

Its Neil Diamond's creedo.

[+Dave 2,318]

-- wait...is that what happened to Stiglr?

 

No, Don got a rope....

[column5 62]

No, Don got a rope....

 

Naw, I just used my intarweb supa bully powas to drive him off.

[sparkomatic 7]

awesome!

[JediMaster 451]

Poster child for "not getting the message."

[column5 62]

Poster child for "not getting the message."

 

Well hell we are not talking about politics anymore.

[+Dave 2,318]

Well hell we are not talking about politics anymore.

 

I think JM meant Stiggy....

[column5 62]

I think JM meant Stiggy....

 

Oh? It read like this to me:

 

column5: That Neil is one bad motherf--

 

Jedi Master: SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

 

column5: But I'm just talkin bout Neil...

 

Jedi Master: Then we can dig it!

 

Guess I misread it, eh?

Edited January 11, 2008 by column5

[+Dave 2,318]

Oh? It read like this to me:

 

column5: That Neil is one bad motherf--

 

Jedi Master: SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

 

column5: But I'm just talkin bout Neil...

 

Jedi Master: Then we can dig it!

 

Guess I misread it, eh?

 

 

Bring out your heartlight.....

[JediMaster 451]

E.T?