Soviet A2A Missile Weapons Pack Project

[kukulino]

Hallo pilots

There were many questions about Soviet A2A missiles posted over CA or Thirdwire forums.

This topic is about general improvement for Soviet A2A missiles for SFP1 series.

 

We do not want talk about useless things like: "Which missile is the best...".

We do not want negative criticize weapons pack made by many great modders and .ini tweakers.

We found some problems in missile values, and we want correct them.

 

R-23T for example: this IR missile can be fired from head to head position in reality. In weapondata.ini it si defined as Rear 180 Aspect. So we can not fire R-23T head to head. R-23 serries warhead weight is 40 kilograms -- this value is defined in weapondata.ini. Correct weight is 25 kilograms.

 

But we have serious problems with correct informations about Soviet A2A missiles, in general.

 

This topic I started with USAFMTL approval for this project. You can find it here (post nm. 15): http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;#entry125350

 

These Soviet A2A missiles are placed in weaponspack from jul 2006:

 

RS-2US Alkali-B

RS-2U Alkali-A

R-3S Atoll-A

R-3R Atoll-B

R-13M Atoll-C

R-131M1 Atoll-E

R-8MR Anab-A

R-8MT Anab-B

R-98T Anab-C

R-98MT Anab-D

R-40R Acrid-A

R-40T Acrid-B

R-23R Apex-A

R-23T Apex-B

R-24R Apex-C

R-24T Apex-D

R-60T Aphid-A

R-60M Aphid-B

R-60TM Aphid-C

R-27TE Alamo

R-27T1 Alamo-B

R-27ER Alamo-C

R-27R Alamo-A

R-27AE Alamo-D

R-73M1 Archer

R-73M2 Archer

R-77 Adder

---------------------------------

R-3U Atoll-B Training Missile

 

There are another exported versions in the weaponspack as Indian "HAL R-60MK (AA-8 Aphid-C)" for example.

 

What we need are serious inforations. I am in email contatct with Mig-21/S-22 pilot. So I can Ask him about R-3S/R13M. Similar, I can try it with Mig-23 pilot. He can help with R-23/60 info.

And we need tons of good info. So help us, if it is possible, please.

Ewerybody can find info on Wikipedia or similar pages. We need better technical info.

Than we can post our "news" and share with community.

 

This is my personal opinion:

1. editing misile values

2. making 512x512 new textures for missiles (something like new textures for weapons in new MF pack)

 

As many times before: I hope you understand my english

 

This is starting post. So we will wait for your replys, notes, opinions, photos, datas :yes:

Edited January 28, 2008 by kukulino

[+Dave]

Yeah this thread is for exactly as kukulino said. I am going to pin this topic.

[Silverbolt]

i think it will be a great idea if you call Wingwinner for this project.

he made some awesome models with very nice skins!

[kukulino]

Thank you USAFMTL for pin :yes:

 

And Thank you Silverbolt for info. I'll go fot it

[kukulino]

I posted topic about this project on SimHQ and I posted on thirdwire forum too. We need more publicity in community.

 

There was primary wall against western planes in Czechoslovakia - and in Warsav pact in general - SAMs.

There was SAM base named Klondajk in Czechoslovakia for example. It was finished in 1985, and equiped with SA-5s Gammon.

Photo for better imagination http://brdy.unas.cz/fotogal/f_ul1/Ul05_1.jpg

 

Migs and Sus were "second wave". So we do not need edit R-23R (for example) as dogfight rocket. It was not designed for close combat. The same for R-23T.

 

BTW, what about universal R-3S? We can shot tanks too, can we?

Edited January 30, 2008 by kukulino

[sparkomatic]

you mean the Atoll?

[ArturR]

We can shot tanks too, can we?

I think that only when target have big heat source like aircraft with working engines, tanks are too cold :-)

[kukulino]

you mean the Atoll?

Yes, R-3S --- AA-2 Atoll. But do not be afraid, just joke with tanks There are special soviet missiles modelled in Weapons packs for ground attacks and many great rocket bomb models of course too :yes:

 

Fast Cargo helped us with new ECM containers for Migs and Sus too: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;#entry112149

So we will have better countermeasures for them.

It was before this project idea.

 

SPS-141 will be included in Mig-21MA/R pac. It is still WIP. We are waiting for new patch.

 

BTW, I live near airfield (civilian, but exarmy. And there are still units needed for Mig - not only - maintenance), and one our Mig-29AS practice acrobatics over that airfield now. Uuuuuf, well, beautifull plane

Edited January 30, 2008 by kukulino

[+Gepard]

Some data taken from website www.mig-21online.de unfortunatly only in german language

 

 

Taktisch-Technische Daten

 

infrarotgelenkte Raketen R-3S R-13M R-60M

NATO-Code AA-2b "Atoll" AA-8 a/c APHID

Länge 2838 mm 2870 mm 2095 mm

Durchmesser 127 mm 127 mm 120 mm

Spannweite 528 mm 632 mm 390 mm

Masse 73,3 kg 90 kg 43,5 kg

Masse Gefechtskopf 19,2 kg 27 kg 3 kg

Art Gefechtskopf Splitter (1000) Stabmantel (Ringbildung Durchmesser 15 m)

Zünder optisch, Aufschlag optisch, Aufschlag Funk, Aufschlag

Öffnungswinkel Erfassungskopf 3,5° 3° 5°

Auslenkwinkel Erfassungskopf +/- 28° +/- 40° +/- 45°

Lenkflugdauer 21" 60" 23"

minimale Geschwindigkeitsdifferenz am Ziel 150 m/s 150 m/s 150 m/s

Vernichtungsradius 9 m 7 m 5 m

Maximale Abschußentfernung große Höhe 7,6 km 13 km 8 km

Maximale Abschußentfernung geringe Höhe 2,5 km 3 km 1,8 km

Minimale Abschußentfernung große Höhe 1,5 km 1 km 300 m

Minimale Abschußentfernung geringe Höhe 900 m 750 m 300 m

Startbedingunen H<5 km M>=0,6 H<10 km M>=0,8 Vmin 450 km/h

H>5 km V>=550 km/h, H>10 km V>750 km/h

Mmax=1,95

Maximales Lastvielfaches beim Abschuß H<12 km = 2g 3,7g 7g

H>12 km = 1,6g

Zielhöhe maximal 20.000 m 24.000 m 20.000 m

Zielhöhe minimal 50 m 50 m 30 m

 

 

 

 

 

funkmessgelenkte Raketen RS-2US R-3R

interne Bezeichnung NVA Gerät IS Gerät 320

NATO-Code AA-1b "ALKALI" AA-2c "ATOLL"

Länge 2.500 mm 3417 mm

Durchmesser 200 mm 127 mm

Spannweite 654 mm 528 mm

Masse 83,2 kg 83,5 kg

Masse Gefechtskopf 13,0kg 19,2 kg

Art Gefechtskpof Splitter Stabmantel (Ringbildung Durchmesser 16 m)

Lenksystem Leitstrahl passiv Radar halbaktiv

Lenkzeit 12,5 sec. 21sec.

Zünder Funk Funk, Aufschlag

Abschussentfernung 2,5 - 20 km max. 17 km

 

 

 

 

 

I'm to stupid to format it correctly here. For correct formated dada sheet look at www.mig-21online.de

Edited January 30, 2008 by Gepard

[kukulino]

Thank you Gepard. I do not understand german. But I can use dictionary of course

 

Well, if we want move, we need know what missile values in weapondata or weapon editor exactly means.

 

Can anybody share with his knowledge about in game missile datas, please?

[Lexx_Luthor]

Yough, we forgot a missile.

 

Using Hawk for standin R-4.

[Mladuna]

Lex, what Mig 21 version is that?

 

Here's a picture

Edited February 4, 2008 by Mladuna

[kukulino]

Thanx Lexx for the tip

Little interesting info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor.../aa-5-specs.htm

Mmm, I do not understand that service in Czechoslovakia. We had no planes with R-4 missiles loadout in Czechoslovak AF.

 

I know plane from Lexx_Luthor screenshot. I saw it many times before, but I do not know its name It is not Mig-21 "derivation", it is Sukhois construction I think.

EDIT: I am wrong with "Sukhois" idea. According to this site LINK! it is E-166. It is one from Mikoyans projects.

 

Well, OK.

I tried some little changes for test:

1. set R-23T as all aspect, reduced Explosive mass from 40kg to 25kg

2. set R-60M as all aspect

3. renamed HAL R-60MK (AA-8 Aphid-C) to R-60MK, changed nation and attachment type to SOVIET and added to weapondata.ini as R-60MK

 

Test plane: Mig-23MF with Gepards Mig-23M cockpit mod, neles FM and loadout.ini

 

Results:

Mig-23MF loaded with 2xR-23T, 4xR-60MK

Mig-23MF is much better opponent for western fighters. And deadly for bombers - it was deadly for bombers before too

Disadvantage: no flares/chaffs

 

1. R-23T - usually 1 hit from two missles fired - front attack, rear attack; side attack - R-23T has problems - all firing position depends to target range and its manoeuvres.

2. R-60MK - try and you will see :yes:

 

One from tests:

Mig-23MF with 2xR-23T, 4xR-60MK

 

First R-23T; you can see circa my position (look on missiles trail) :

 

Picture for screenshot of the day:

 

R-60MK hit (look on missiles trail for my circa position):

 

Another R-60MK missed its target.

 

Second R-23T hit (haed to head position):

 

Than I was shot down by Harrier FRS1 with AIM-9L:

 

Harrier is not high speed plane, of course.

 

So, I used R-60MKs from weaponspack - just renamed. R-60MK according to my information is R-60M export version, for example here (I have read it on czech an slovak pages too): http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-8.htm

 

 

But on the other hand, I found that R-60MK is developed for Mig-29, for example here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft...siles/R-60.html

 

There is big mess in russian A2A missiles info over internet.

 

SO, is R-60MK the same as R-60M, but export?

 

R-60M in jul weaponspack is not the same as R-60MK. R-60M is not set as all aspect, R-60MK is all aspect. It is much better than R-60M (in weaponspack).

 

R-23T is successful in had to head attacks (I see no or little target manoeuvres. Targets just dropped flares usually). So, if you can, test it. And post you opinions, please.

 

EVERY INFO ABOUT THESE (OR EVERY) MISSILES WELCOMED!!!

Edited February 6, 2008 by kukulino

[ArturR]

Thanks Kukulino! I know that were:

R-60 (sometimes with T letter) -first production model, was developed during the late 1960s and had entered production in 1973. The R-60T had a maximum range of ~7 km. It is reported that the R-60 was a tail-chase weapon, and that all-aspect performance was achieved by later models.

R-60m - this version has upgraded guidence section with a gas cooled all aspect seeker, a 20 degree off boresight capability, and radio-frequency proximity fuse replacing the original optical fuse. (1978?)

R-60mk - developed for the MiG-29. The MK variant has a head-on range of 12 km and a tail-on of 8 km, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 and uses proportional navigation for guidance. It became the first missile to be incorporated with the new helmet-mounted sighting system in the MiG-29.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ArturR

[kukulino]

Thanks Kukulino! I know that were:

R-60 (sometimes with T letter) -first production model, was developed during the late 1960s and had entered production in 1973. The R-60T had a maximum range of ~7 km. It is reported that the R-60 was a tail-chase weapon, and that all-aspect performance was achieved by later models.

R-60m - this version has upgraded guidence section with a gas cooled all aspect seeker, a 20 degree off boresight capability, and radio-frequency proximity fuse replacing the original optical fuse. (1978?)

R-60mk - developed for the MiG-29. The MK variant has a head-on range of 12 km and a tail-on of 8 km, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 and uses proportional navigation for guidance. It became the first missile to be incorporated with the new helmet-mounted sighting system in the MiG-29.

THANX for reply ArtuR :yes:

Czechoslovak Mig-29s were armed with R-60MK version. One pilot said that Slovaks Mi-29 did not fired R-60MK on firing range, because they used R-73s (he means concrete firing tests in concrete date. Our pilots fired R-6MK on other practices. But I have no concrete info about that).

I saw on our pages designation R-60 very often. But without subversion. So, it is question for me: Which R-60 version missiles were use on Czechoslovak Mig-23MF/ML? It was similar to other WP states, I suppose. Which R-60 version were used on Mig-23 in Polland?

 

And there is another R-60 in jul weaponspack: HAL R-60M1 (AA-8 Aphid-B) - all aspect too. But I do not tested it for this time.

 

So, I tried my Mig-23MF loaded with R-23T and R-60MK in duel with F-16.

Mmm, not easy. With no flares it is still "hard core"

I was shot down often by AIM-9L. Well, no flares

 

R-23T lock on targets (F-16A) in cca 10km range usually (head to head):

 

I fired both R-23Ts, but no succes.

 

Then I fired R-60MK - still head to head position and this missile hits:

 

I fired two R-60MKs on F-16, but both miss. F-16 was too close for missile, so I used cannon:

 

Note: I am using edited Gepards Mig-23M HUD.

 

Important page: http://www.armourdave.com/weaponsdev/refer.../Nation005.html

Edited February 5, 2008 by kukulino

[ArturR]

So, it is question for me: Which R-60 version missiles were use on Czechoslovak Mig-23MF/ML? It was similar to other WP states, I suppose. Which R-60 version were used on Mig-23 in Polland?

Well I think that was same missiles. Polish migs using R-60m missiles and I think that Czechoslovak also using "M" version in MiG-23mf/ml.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ArturR

[kukulino]

I have little knowledge base for me from this site (in czech): http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/highli...R-60-AA-8-Aphid

 

There is R-60M = R-60MK as export variant

 

I tried R-60M1 variant. Dogfight with 8 F-15D:

 

First attack - 5xR-23R fired head to head. No hit...

 

Then R-60M1 fired on F-15D with low speed:

 

Another R-60M1 fired on F-15 in turn:

 

Both fired R-60M1 hits their targets. Not bad!!!

 

Score 8:2 for F-15 My Mig was the last... Too many Eagles around

 

I will drop PM to Ghostrider883. He knows something about that indian R-60 version maybe.

[+Gepard]

East german air force used R-60M and MK. I think the Czech would have the same.

To correct the statements about the MK. It was developed for MiG-23ML, not for MiG-29. The R-73 was designed for the Fulcrum.

[ArturR]

Perhaps you have right. but MiG-23ML had helmet-mounted sighting system?

[Viggen]

I know this is for the Soviet missiles but remember to make a West German R60, R73, and R27 for the MiG-29G mod.

[Jarhead1]

Dude, THEY KNOW, LET IT GO!!! U reminded them earlier and they can read the posts, so drop it already!!

[+Spectre_USA]

Hey, JH0, you may wanna munch a couple of these;

 

[Jarhead1]

lol, yeah, sorry to everyone, bad day, sorry Viggen, didnt mean to bite ur head off

[Viggen]

lol, yeah, sorry to everyone, bad day, sorry Viggen, didnt mean to bite ur head off

 

No problem. I forgot about my other post anyhow. As long as I have some hair left on my head

[Jarhead1]

when something gets repeated multiple times in one thread it irratates me, i shouldnt have snapped on u like that, my bad