A US civil war campaign?

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Hi guys.

While being belgian and french, I'm profoundly fond of US Civil War.

I know that there are some North American terrains here and there. Do they cover Dixie and the neighbouring northern states?

What would you think of a what if campaign whose thema could be a conflict in the Wings over X time frame between CSA that had survived and the USA?

As I have absolutely no modding abilities, that's only a suggestion... But I'd rather love flying CSA F-16 against some yankees planes, or the contrary...

[+allenjb42 4,232]

Isn't there a book series that explores this? By Harry Turtledove IIRC.

 

Bet Wrench, The knows

Edited April 17, 2008 by allenjb42

[Viper6 3]

I played a PC game with this same permise it is called "Shattered Union",

[Wrench 9,801]

Yup, got them books, alrighty. I think I'm either missing the last one or it hasn't come out yet. Where the Federals deploy their nuke against the CSA. Don't forget to, guys, they only go as far as approx 1945...

(even have my signed copy of "Over Open Sights" by Jake Featherston)

 

btw, there's a national marking's set of templates over at simmerspaintshop, that has CSA and USA insignia.

 

As to maps, nothing that could really be used .... in Turtledove's timeline, Mexico is alinged with the CSA, parts of Canada are US occupied (Quebc?) - the rest don't like us, Cuba is CSA territory.... so that rules out Flordia (unless you're doing carrier campaigns from USS REMEMBERANCE). SoCal might be usable, as LA does come under bomber attack from bases in West Texas/New Mexico...

 

The original desert map MIGHT be able to be rebuilt representing the Eastern Seaboard, but then there's that island of the coast that don't belong....

 

It's doable, but would take a huge amount of work ... to say nothing of the aircraft ... excepting for those in "The Great War", not a lot of them are described .. CW built Fokker-clones, possible P-40s for WW2 ish era; since the USA is allied with the Central Powers in The Great War....also, no mention of the Euro powers in 40s books....hmm....must think on this...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Yup, got them books, alrighty. I think I'm either missing the last one or it hasn't come out yet. Where the Federals deploy their nuke against the CSA. Don't forget to, guys, they only go as far as approx 1945...

(even have my signed copy of "Over Open Sights" by Jake Featherston)

 

btw, there's a national marking's set of templates over at simmerspaintshop, that has CSA and USA insignia.

 

As to maps, nothing that could really be used .... in Turtledove's timeline, Mexico is alinged with the CSA, parts of Canada are US occupied (Quebc?) - the rest don't like us, Cuba is CSA territory.... so that rules out Flordia (unless you're doing carrier campaigns from USS REMEMBERANCE). SoCal might be usable, as LA does come under bomber attack from bases in West Texas/New Mexico...

 

The original desert map MIGHT be able to be rebuilt representing the Eastern Seaboard, but then there's that island of the coast that don't belong....

 

It's doable, but would take a huge amount of work ... to say nothing of the aircraft ... excepting for those in "The Great War", not a lot of them are described .. CW built Fokker-clones, possible P-40s for WW2 ish era; since the USA is allied with the Central Powers in The Great War....also, no mention of the Euro powers in 40s books....hmm....must think on this...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

What do their CSA insignia looks like?

 

I guessed that the greatest issue would be the lack of any suitable terrain...

As for scenario, given the fact that making a campaign with the CSA is an uchrony, we are quite free. I've thought of a timeline (sort of) and tried to find a cause for war in the 50's -60's - 70's or early 80's (our favorite sim time frame, in other words). I found ideas centered about some cuban issues, but other way can be explorated too.

 

As for the aircraft, I do not know quite well american aircraft builders, especially their history, but maybe were historically some compagnies born in the South, and other in the North? Let's say for instance that historicaly Mc Donnel Douglas was founded in Alabama, then CSA shall get F-4. If it is not the case, one can also use arbitrary choices ;) And don't forget that in most uchrony, CSA, France and UK seems to share close bonds, then the option of giving CSA french and british equipement might be considered too.

 

Except from story line and some ideas, I can't do any "hard core" modding (map, skins etc) so if someone is interested, feel free! Actually, I had this idea washing my dishes and thought "hey, I have to post it on combatace to see if someone can be interested". :)

[Wrench 9,801]

Don't forget, too, that the South isn't (even now I don't think...) as heavily industrilazied as the North. Which, amongst other things, was part of their original failure to succeed in the 1860s. In Turtledove's timeline, it's a LOT more industralized, with many of the large factories in the deep south (Alabama, Georga, Texas, Mexico). Kentucky and Tennessee are heavily contested areas, with massive infantry/tank battles

 

The later books mentions Boeing, still in Seattle (out of range of CSA bombers - even from rebelious Utah), Douglas is mentioned, as is Curtiss/Wright - dangerously close in Ohio. Speculation can run rampant; all the historical aircraft manufactures ARE above the Maxon-Dixon line. One can assume CSA importation of aircraft from UK/France/Japan (hmm...Rebel Spitfires against Federal P-40s????)

 

In the books, the CSA is (obviously) allied with Britian and France in the Great War; in the 'WW2' era, they're allied with Japan.

 

CSA Zekes???? They DO build a lot of their own stuff, as General Morrell finds out with his 'barrels' (unscramble the name to see who he represents) Confederate barrels are described more like Panzers, while the US ones more like Grant/Lee style, with a turreted version (I'm assuming similiar to the Pkzw IV or early Sherman) coming out later.

 

I'll try and find where I put that insignia, and see what I can do with it...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[HrntFixr 4]

Try USA vs. Militia by Ian Slater..... cool series of books.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Don't forget, too, that the South isn't (even now I don't think...) as heavily industrilazied as the North. Which, amongst other things, was part of their original failure to succeed in the 1860s. In Turtledove's timeline, it's a LOT more industralized, with many of the large factories in the deep south (Alabama, Georga, Texas, Mexico). Kentucky and Tennessee are heavily contested areas, with massive infantry/tank battles

 

The later books mentions Boeing, still in Seattle (out of range of CSA bombers - even from rebelious Utah), Douglas is mentioned, as is Curtiss/Wright - dangerously close in Ohio. Speculation can run rampant; all the historical aircraft manufactures ARE above the Maxon-Dixon line. One can assume CSA importation of aircraft from UK/France/Japan (hmm...Rebel Spitfires against Federal P-40s????)

 

In the books, the CSA is (obviously) allied with Britian and France in the Great War; in the 'WW2' era, they're allied with Japan.

 

CSA Zekes???? They DO build a lot of their own stuff, as General Morrell finds out with his 'barrels' (unscramble the name to see who he represents) Confederate barrels are described more like Panzers, while the US ones more like Grant/Lee style, with a turreted version (I'm assuming similiar to the Pkzw IV or early Sherman) coming out later.

 

I'll try and find where I put that insignia, and see what I can do with it...

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

Yeah, I know about industrialisation. BTW, one can assume that given their survival, the CSA would have stressed on industrialization, and while being unable to reach the level of the Union, may have reduced the gap.

As I'm actually more interested in a jet era campaign than in WW2, I would see either French or British design amon CSAF. Confederates mirages, mysteres or Lightning (huh... given the size of the theatre and their short legs...) But hell, a Confederate F4 would be handsome!

[+EricJ 4,203]

Try USA vs. Militia by Ian Slater..... cool series of books.

 

"Against All Enemies" by Harold Coyle wasn't bad either, if only one novel.

[+allenjb42 4,232]

Ian Slater http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/ian-slater/

 

Harold Coyle http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/harold-coyle/ Which book do you mean Eric?

 

Harry Turtledove http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/t/harry-turtledove/

BTW could you imagine the pitch for the WorldWar series to his publishers? - 'it's kind of like The Winds of War meets Independence Day'

 

There's some alternate WW2 stuff by William R Forstchen & Newt Gingrich http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/f/william-r-forstchen/ especially 1945, where we would get to see all of the Luft46 planes in action in a Nazi invasion of North America. But I'd better stop before I go too off-topic!

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

I've been thinking about the same thing, even been making a few butternut skins for Heinkels and B-25s. Made a St. Andrew's cross for their battle flag with the intention of using it as their decal...

...but it's too small I think.

 

From what I read, based on the aircraft described, I got the distinct impression that the CSA 'Mules' were essentially just Ju-87s, the US Turbojets were essentially Me-262s (even down to their troublesome engines and vulnerable landings). The 'Asskickers' were pretty vague, but it gave the strong impression of a strong winged monoplane (maybe along the lines of a 109 or something Spitfire-esque). I thought he referred to the IJN planes as Zeros and the only real life plane I remember were the B-17s mentioned by Flora Blackford, on their way to strike Richmond... or something. Got no idea what the artillery spotting 'Grasshopper' was.

 

Based on these observations, you could suggest that maybe the US aircraft industry of the day was influenced by is larger, more influential ally, the Germans. Or maybe these were just specific examples used to tell the story. Although I do like the idea of the British influences of the CSA and the possibility of CSA Spitfires and Hurricanes too.

 

I'd be interested to see the Tsar's air force and it's technological developments (or possible lack there of...).

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

 

As for the national markings, what i've often imaginated was this roundel, but with inverted colours (red instead of blue, blue instead of red) ad some CSA St Andrew cross on the tail (in a similar fashion as the one spanish planes are bearing, but with CSA ish colours).

Edited April 18, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[Silverbolt 104]

Marvel's Civil war o/

[+The Trooper 104]

What about this?

[+EricJ 4,203]

Harold Coyle http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/harold-coyle/ Which book do you mean Eric?

 

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/harold...all-enemies.htm

 

This one

[Wrench 9,801]

Gotta gimme a little bit o time here, guys.

 

Let me get pfunk's Libya fixes in, then I'll whip out some Rebel and Imperial er, ah, Federal skins with the insignia I've got on that marking's template.

 

So, Rebel Spitfire 1? A6M5???

 

Federal P-40 -- B/C model is readily available. I can do the E, but not everyone may have it. (DevATeam bird)

 

Let's stay away from post-WW2 stuff for now, as we don't know the outcome of the War (since the last book ain't out and/or I haven't read it yet). If the South deploys IT'S nuke, which is/was nearly ready, and the North has their's already in transit...

it's all up for grab.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Wrench 9,801]

Ok, some very quick, and very dirty skins...

 

US/Federal P-40E, circa 1943:

 

 

94th Pursuit Squadon (still have to place the Hat in the Ring)

 

I forgot about the decal bleed on the r/s fues, so I'll have to paint the insignia on the template. I remember in one of the books, the fighter pilot sees/mentions something about 'the American Eagles on the wings'. I'm making the assumption of that being the North's markings.

 

Rebel/CSA Spit 1:

 

 

7th Fighter, Tennessee (TN flag on tail)

 

There's some misalignmet on the rudder/vert fin so I'll have to move the TN fin flash forward or make it slightly smaller. I want the blue striipe to show. Fues numbers should be moved aft of the insignia. And...my damn "CS Army" underwing tag is backwards, have to tweek that too.

 

Ways to got still on both...

 

Just thought you'd like some samples

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Looking very interesting!