WOV F-4 Phantoms

[GreyCap 0]

I just started playing WOV again and I can't believe how sluggish the F-4 is! All I ever hear in my headphones is that wind sound just before stalling and it seems like the only way I can loop is if I'm in full burners going at least 450 kts.

Hard to believe the real Phantom drivers used to dogfight like that!

Is this normal? You guys fly the stock F-4, or do you do some .ini tweaks to the FM?

Thanks

[Fubar512 1,350]

They're actually too maneuverable. The F-4 did not handle well below 450 knots, and was a handful at more than 15+ units of AoA.

[GreyCap 0]

Wow really? Interesting. I just seem to spend all my time in a 'near stall' condition and found it a little strange. 

[Viper6 3]

I fly the F-4 a LOT and have found that if you do not keep your energy up, you find that it is a tough go, I never try to out turn migs i just take them into the vertical on AB or make sure that im at a great altitude before diving into them, make a pass then blaze away from them. I really love the F-4 in strike missions cause she can carry a big load.

[MAKO69 186]

Boom and Zoom in the virtual skaters half pipe in the sky

 

I fly the F-4 a LOT and have found that if you do not keep your energy up, you find that it is a tough go, I never try to out turn migs i just take them into the vertical on AB or make sure that im at a great altitude before diving into them, make a pass then blaze away from them. I really love the F-4 in strike missions cause she can carry a big load.

[snakeman 1]

The F-4 is a great all rounder. It is the a/c I fly the most (Although have been flying the excellent Typhoon a bit recently) For a really great F-4 experience download one of the Mirage Factorys F-4s even more interesting to fly.

 

Phantoms Phorever !!!!

[GreyCap 0]

For a really great F-4 experience download one of the Mirage Factorys F-4s even more interesting to fly.

Phantoms Phorever !!!!

 

Will give that a try!

[markkyle66 0]

Will give that a try!

 

I've had to takes on the phantom. One from my CFI who is a retired F-4D pilot who flew with Triple Nickel. He said the plane handled like a pig pretty much and was somewhat inefficient with it's energy. You really had to be aware of your energy state and be several steps ahead of her. Also I had an aviation science teacher who was a Navy CAG who had time in the A-7, A-4 adversarys, F-4, and F-14's. He told me the phantom wasn't really good at a paticular thing, but did alot of things well. He was more impressed with the skyhawks and the tomcats .... but that figures... he was an light-attack guy " no slack in light attack "

[markkyle66 0]

I forgot to mention that both of the phantom pilots did say that the one thing it WASNT lacking was the speed to get you where you wanted to be.... that it will give you a good kick in the seat when you light the J-79's up

[wagsled 0]

I forgot to mention that both of the phantom pilots did say that the one thing it WASNT lacking was the speed to get you where you wanted to be.... that it will give you a good kick in the seat when you light the J-79's up

 

 

Hi Markkyle66,

 

I've got about 2,000 hours in various models of the Phantom and the comments from your friends are right on the money. The Phantom couldn't do any one thing better than other a/c, but it did a great many things pretty well. It did bleed energy like crazy and had all the glide characteristics of a flying ketchup bottle. The fight against MiG-17's, 19's and 21's had to be a vertical fight - we called it the "egg" because the turns over the top were smaller radius than those at the bottom due to the 1 additional g you get from gravity - and the egg will work if you know what you are doing and have practiced it a good bit. Just don't get slow and don't try to turn with them...kiss of death if the MiG isn't flown by some hamfist.

 

BTW, I also flew with the Triple Nickle in 1970 out of Udorn RTAFB...any chance your friend might have been with them around the same time?

 

Keep checking six!

 

Wagsled

[GreyCap 0]

Hi Markkyle66,

 

I've got about 2,000 hours in various models of the Phantom and the comments from your friends are right on the money. The Phantom couldn't do any one thing better than other a/c, but it did a great many things pretty well. It did bleed energy like crazy and had all the glide characteristics of a flying ketchup bottle. The fight against MiG-17's, 19's and 21's had to be a vertical fight - we called it the "egg" because the turns over the top were smaller radius than those at the bottom due to the 1 additional g you get from gravity - and the egg will work if you know what you are doing and have practiced it a good bit. Just don't get slow and don't try to turn with them...kiss of death if the MiG isn't flown by some hamfist.

 

BTW, I also flew with the Triple Nickle in 1970 out of Udorn RTAFB...any chance your friend might have been with them around the same time?

 

Keep checking six!

 

Wagsled

 

It does sometimes feel like I'm flying a ketchup bottle.   

Wagsled you a Phantom driver? What do you think of the third wire sims F-4 flight model, accurate? In fact If you've seen action in Vietnam that's probably the least important question I can possibly ask... I'm trying to restrain myself. Maybe you can tell us your impression of Wings Over Vietnam sim on the whole?

[+Typhoid 231]

Hi Markkyle66,

 

I've got about 2,000 hours in various models of the Phantom and the comments from your friends are right on the money. The Phantom couldn't do any one thing better than other a/c, but it did a great many things pretty well. It did bleed energy like crazy and had all the glide characteristics of a flying ketchup bottle. The fight against MiG-17's, 19's and 21's had to be a vertical fight - we called it the "egg" because the turns over the top were smaller radius than those at the bottom due to the 1 additional g you get from gravity - and the egg will work if you know what you are doing and have practiced it a good bit. Just don't get slow and don't try to turn with them...kiss of death if the MiG isn't flown by some hamfist.

 

BTW, I also flew with the Triple Nickle in 1970 out of Udorn RTAFB...any chance your friend might have been with them around the same time?

 

Keep checking six!

 

Wagsled

 

wagsled,

 

Have you tried the MF Phantoms? How accurate are those FM's?

 

[Viper6 3]

This is yet another great reason I love this community! To Actually be able to read some comments from F-4 drivers and folks that know about her capabilities and faults is priceless! To tell the truth, I love the Mighty F-4! I'd say that i have just about ALL of them from every site i can find. I also use the info from you guys to help me in my fight against migs and my love of mud movin!

[kct 5]

When in doubt, use brute force.

[GreyCap 0]

This is yet another great reason I love this community! To Actually be able to read some comments from F-4 drivers and folks that know about her capabilities and faults is priceless! To tell the truth, I love the Mighty F-4! I'd say that i have just about ALL of them from every site i can find. I also use the info from you guys to help me in my fight against migs and my love of mud movin!

:yes:

 

So it looks like I gotta boom n zoom with this beast. I guess the old P-47 Thunderbolt boys used the same tactic huh. I just need a lil more practice...

[kct 5]

And somehow I learned to live with British Phantom IIs.

[WLJet 1]

This is yet another great reason I love this community! To Actually be able to read some comments from F-4 drivers and folks that know about her capabilities and faults is priceless! To tell the truth, I love the Mighty F-4! I'd say that i have just about ALL of them from every site i can find. I also use the info from you guys to help me in my fight against migs and my love of mud movin!

 

Given the topic on this forum is about the F-4, I couldn't restrain myself from not asking something about this plane. I hope the addition of my question will not overwhelm Wagsled or any F-4 drivers in the community to answer.

 

One of the things that initially attracted me to purchase Strike Fighters Gold in the first place was that I noticed a certain fidelity in the modeling of the F-4 avionics as seen in Discovery Channel. Based from what I had read, the radar for the F-4E is not pulse-Doppler type, hence not surprising it has difficulty to pick up bogies flying near the ground. There would be a lot of radar energy reflected back from the ground if the F-4 is pointing downwards. Trying to pick up the bogey in this instance is like trying to pick up a blip on a display with spilled milk on it (if I didn't misread Phil Handley's statement in the old Spectrum Holobyte's manual for 'Flight of the Intruder").

 

However, on some aircraft reference websites it seems the F-4J model was equipped with a multimode pulse-doppler APG-59 instead of the APQ-120 like that of the F-4E. So my question is, do the radar of the J model functioned and also displayed the same way on the radar scope like the F-4E? I don't see any difference in the way how Strike Fighters model the radar display/avionics between the F-4E and F-4J.

 

I would appreciate a clarification or reply from Wagsled or any of the F-4 drivers in the community. Thanks a lot :yes:

 

 

WLJet

[GreyCap 0]

Personaly I can't answer your question for sure, but I can tell you that the ThirdWire sims are considered 'light sims'. Therefore I wouldn't count on too much historical accuracy with radar model/types.

Unless you're asking about the real F-4, then nevermind what I said. :)

Edited April 23, 2008 by GreyCap

[Illu 0]

[Trying to pick up the bogey in this instance is like trying to pick up a blip on a display with spilled milk on it (if I didn't misread Phil Handley's statement in the old Spectrum Holobyte's manual for 'Flight of the Intruder").

 

...radar scope that looked to me like a bowl of buttermilk. ;)

 

Illu

[+Typhoid 231]

Given the topic on this forum is about the F-4, I couldn't restrain myself from not asking something about this plane. I hope the addition of my question will not overwhelm Wagsled or any F-4 drivers in the community to answer.

 

One of the things that initially attracted me to purchase Strike Fighters Gold in the first place was that I noticed a certain fidelity in the modeling of the F-4 avionics as seen in Discovery Channel. Based from what I had read, the radar for the F-4E is not pulse-Doppler type, hence not surprising it has difficulty to pick up bogies flying near the ground. There would be a lot of radar energy reflected back from the ground if the F-4 is pointing downwards. Trying to pick up the bogey in this instance is like trying to pick up a blip on a display with spilled milk on it (if I didn't misread Phil Handley's statement in the old Spectrum Holobyte's manual for 'Flight of the Intruder").

 

However, on some aircraft reference websites it seems the F-4J model was equipped with a multimode pulse-doppler APG-59 instead of the APQ-120 like that of the F-4E. So my question is, do the radar of the J model functioned and also displayed the same way on the radar scope like the F-4E? I don't see any difference in the way how Strike Fighters model the radar display/avionics between the F-4E and F-4J.

 

I would appreciate a clarification or reply from Wagsled or any of the F-4 drivers in the community. Thanks a lot :yes:

 

 

WLJet

 

I didn't drive the F-4, just controlled them. The F-4J and S most definitely had pulse doppler and had a pretty good look down capability.

 

The radar display in this light sim is roughly correct with respect to the video quality of the radars from that time frame, but the display is way simpler. The variety of radar modes and selections is in no way modelled to an accurate level of fidelity. Its simplified to be playable.

[wagsled 0]

I didn't drive the F-4, just controlled them. The F-4J and S most definitely had pulse doppler and had a pretty good look down capability.

 

The radar display in this light sim is roughly correct with respect to the video quality of the radars from that time frame, but the display is way simpler. The variety of radar modes and selections is in no way modelled to an accurate level of fidelity. Its simplified to be playable.

 

 

To All Interested in Phantoms:

 

Because I transferred my commission from the USAF to the USMC following Vietnam, I had the opportunity (and pleasure!) of flying the C, D, E, B, N, J, and S models of the Phantom. They each had significant differences as I recall and flew similarly but also differently - if that makes any sense! There were handling and performance differences you could easily identify, but it was easy to switch from one model to the other and not have any problems.

 

At modest to high angles of attack, however, all Phantoms - even the slatted E and S versions - had nasty habits and would depart controlled flight with even a little bit of aileron - less than an inch deflection was often enough to set up an adverse yaw departure. Good Phantom jocks learned to fly turns with their feet (rudders) at AOAs over 15 or16 units. We would freeze the stick laterally and use the rudders to roll or turn. I occasionally used an intentional departure from controlled flight as a guns defensive move - but only when I had lots of altitude to recover - and only when I had a RIO I trusted not to eject too quickly 'cause he didn't know what I was doing!

 

As for radars, I'm going to have to do this from a slightly less than ideal memory. I believe all the USAF versions I flew in Vietnam were lacking any "look down, shoot down" capability. The J and S in the Corps did have a PD radar although it was one of the early versions and didn't have a great MTBF, but when it worked we did have a limited "look down, shoot down" capability. We tended to fly a lot of "lead-nose" training missions in the Corps, especially in the mid-70's, because the radar was so hard to keep in an "up" status. It sure was fun, though and I miss the hell out of it!

 

Cheers to all,

 

Wagsled

[FastCargo 412]

Wagsled....thanks for the explanations. Always nice to hear from the guys who did the real thing...

 

FastCargo

[GreyCap 0]

To All Interested in Phantoms...

 

Thanks wagsled!

Feel free to share more with us, we all love hearing it from the real deal like yourself

[Syrinx 13]

Wagsled....cheers for that!

 

It's info like this which is absolutely invaluable and makes one have a deeper appreciation of what you guys did for real. I could listen and read about such things til the cows come home.

Thanks again.

[kct 5]

Good to hear a different perspective of the story, everywhere I've seen the Phantom II is being somewhere on 'mythical', in terms of being a parts distributor.

Edited April 24, 2008 by kct