Phantom Tactics - Some Thoughts

[wagsled 0]

To all Phantom Drivers (especially those frustrated by the dogfight performance of all F-4 models):

 

After deciding to check out the Phantom FM's as suggested by another virtual pilot here, I got fairly serious and flew several Combat Air Patrol missions with the F-4B. I used SFP1, fully patched, desert terrain, year selected was 1969. Load was 4 x AIM-9E, 4 x AIM-7E, centerline gun pod, no external tanks. All ended up as two-plane flights and the bogies were always MiG-21's for some reason; in the last mission there were 10 of them. (Believe me, I would have bugged out after a kill or two in real-life with those kind of odds, but since I can only hurt my pride here I stayed to fight.)

 

Anyway, I used the FM mods - further tweaked - that I suggested in an earlier thread, now shown here:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=65.15

CruiseSpeed=246.93

ClimbSpeed=231.5

CornerSpeed=216.07

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.75

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.1

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

I'm pretty sure these are good numbers (at least for now) and I thought that the performance of the F-4B with these settings was similar to real life. Handling qualities are still a bit off, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change them.

 

Now to the tactics. The following are basic suggestions (as I remember them) directly from the USN TOPGUN School and the USMC Air Combat Tactics Instructor (ACTI) courses on how to fight low-wing-loaded opponents like the MiG-17's and -21's. If you use these along with some good common sense, the Phantom can be a real MiG killer...we proved it in Vietnam, over and over.

 

1. Fight them vertically - use the power of the Phantom and keep your speed up. Except at the top of the "egg", don't let your speed drop below 350 KIAS and only do that when you have to. Also, the MiG-17 doesn't roll well at high speed - no power boost on the controls.

2. Use lag-pursuit...best described as putting yourself in a pursuit curve that leads your a/c to a deep six o'clock position on the bogey. Think of it like a cone or funnel that the bogey drags around behind him with the small end on his tailpipe. You want to be in the wide part of the funnel, usually between 3/4 mile and 1 mile astern. Remember, the Phantom's primary weapon in a dogfight is the AIM-9, not the gun. Gun kills are the best - believe me, I know - but the gun is really there for situations when you just get too close and can't back off to beyond the AIM-9's minimum range - or for when you are out of missiles and can't bug out! Also, Navy and Marine birds didn't always carry a gun pod, so it wasn't even an option sometimes.

3. If you start getting slow, try to pass the bogey as close to 180 degree out as you can, unload (push the nose over), stroke the burners and extend. And, ladies and gents, I'm talking extend to five or six miles separation. Get lots of knots, 550+, select boresight on the radar and the AIM-7E, pitch up and back into the fight, auto acquire that bad-boy and shoot him in the face with the Sparrow. You'll find this works pretty well.

4. Finally, if you are getting into a bad position, tell your wingman to head for home, unload, go for the deck and get the hell out of there. You can always live to fight another day.

 

Using the above tactics (and a whole bunch of luck), I managed to get six of those ten MiG-21's I mentioned earlier, even though my wingman went down early in the fight, and then I flew home to land. Not a bad mission and, believe me, not at all representative of what a real dogfight against those odds would have been like. I truly doubt I could have made it home had that situation ever presented itself in 'Nam. Also, with my wingman down early, I would have taken the first opportunity to get the hell out of there. Four guys on the ground that need to be rescued is a lot worse than two!

 

Well, enough of my rambling. To those who want to give this a try, I'd love to hear some feedback. To those of you who already knew these tactics - apologies for taking up your time!

 

Salute to all,

 

Wagsled

[JediMaster 451]

Heh, I personally tend to find discretion the better part of valor when facing 17s in a Rhino and I make like Arthur's Knights: "Run away!!"

 

I'll have to try those numbers, though.

[+ST0RM 145]

I read both of your threads and have found your tactics pretty much "dead on balls" accurate. I'll go back and try the ini edit that you posted and see how much that changes things.

 

Thanks for your time and words.

 

Storm

[wagsled 0]

I read both of your threads and have found your tactics pretty much "dead on balls" accurate. I'll go back and try the ini edit that you posted and see how much that changes things.

 

Thanks for your time and words.

 

Storm

 

 

Hi Storm,

 

I would be very interested in your thoughts regarding both the tactics and the .ini modification. If you have time to post them, I would appreciate it - either here or in a new thread.

 

Regards,

 

Wagsled

[Baz_GFA 0]

I recently saw an episode of dogfights (Mig Killers of Midway), where two Midway phantoms prevailed vs 6 Migs (2 19's and 4 17's I believe).

Edited May 31, 2008 by Baz_GFA

[jaeger_301 0]

this is the flight data from the F4-E, i really like the FM and the felling

 

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=61.29

CruiseSpeed=216.50

ClimbSpeed=407.97

CornerSpeed=196.08

MaxG=8.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.57

MachLimit=2.06

PitchDamper=1.40

RollDamper=1.29

YawDamper=0.0

GunBoresightAngle=2.0

RocketBoresightAngle=-0.5

 

Jaeger

[jaeger_301 0]

Hello Wagsled,

 

thank you for your efforts.

 

I have flown your edits with the WOV Oct.b patch and Lybia terrain, enemy setting hard.

 

differences between stock and your FM, with your FM the F4B climbs better, energy loss in turns is not so drastic, feels a bit more forgiving.

 

Loadout:

4 AIM7 E, 4 AIM9 G and gunpod

 

i got mostly Mig 19S and Mig 17

 

Tactics vs MIG 19:

Vertical, the 19 does well in the vertical and i couldn t get any advantage. Bug out with full speed on the deck worked, closed in on the low 6 and got AIM 7 + AIM 9 kills.

 

Face shot; didn t work out because the radar needs too much time to get the lock and then i was in minimum range.

 

Turn; the 19 turns tight at 400kts + as soon as i got vertical the 19 followed.

 

Tactics vs MIG 17:

Vertical; the 17 refused a vertical fight and stayed in the horizontal. this gave me a great opportunity for barrel rolls and i got AIM9 kills at around 1,5 nm with slight lead pursuit.

 

Face shot worked with a separation of 5nm or larger

 

Lag pursuit: worked at a distance between 2 and 4 nm best with AIM7. For AIM9 kills, best position is between 1 and 1,5 nm on the low 6 with pulling lead pursuit, unload and fire.

 

scissors: max 2, energy loss was too big and i had too bug out.

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

[+ST0RM 145]

Sorry for the 6 month delay. Deployments, an Evaluator upgrade, and the new patches/reinstalls had me a out of the virtual flying loop for a bit.

 

I'd like to go back and try the edits again with the new patches installed and see how the Phantom can handle it.

 

I'll report back next week. I'm taking a full of leave.

 

-S

[+ST0RM 145]

Ok guys, my first few tests runs went well. Went 4 v 4 with the F-4E Kurnass against some F-16As from the Egyptian AF. We did surprisingly well. All 4 Phantoms survived. Granted we took BVR shots with the Sparrows, but the Vipers dropped chaff and beamed the missiles, so the radar broke lock and the missiles went stupid. All except one.

 

Anyhow, we went into the merge and the -16s broke low, allowing me to pull into the vertical and manuever for a Python shot. Using the lag pursuit, I was able to keep my missiles seeker on the tighter turning Viper, even if I was outside of his turn circle. Keeping the speed around 350kts for the turn helps tremendously.

 

With the edits that Jaeger_301 put up, the slatted wing Phantom can hold it's own. The speed bleed off wasnt as severe as before. Or maybe it was just a bit smoother in the pull and you dont get the immediate ruffle.

 

According to the Knowledge Base, this section ( The [FlightControl] ) is mostly for the AI wingman's aircraft, but I'd swear it was different with mine also.

 

One thing I did notice was with the MF's F-4E Kurnass (early). This is the short gun muzzled (non-Midas 4) and hard wing. Post Oct 08 patch, it is really unstable. I was trying it in an intercept against Tu-16s. In full burner, I was trying to give my missiles some extra speed. At 550-600kts, it started to shake really bad. The pitch axis needed constant hands on adjustments otherwise it would have went out of control.

 

Since wagsled posted some edits for the F-4B, I'm wondering if these could be adapted for another hard-wing Phantom i.e. the early E-model.

 

My next tests will be with the B-model using Wag's edits. More to come.

 

-Storm

[macelena 1,070]

It´s always good to see people happy with their phantoms. I expend all time

with Yo-yos, up & down like an elevator

 

About the ini edits, is there something useful for the low speed turn

in EF2000? drives me mad

 

EDIT: edited caseu there was an error on message

Edited November 11, 2008 by macelena

[Fubar512 1,350]

Increasing damper values on any axis (in an FM's flight control section) directly effects the player's FM, by limiting control surface deflection angle, and deflection rate. That would explain why some models may tend to feel less twitchy with increased values. However, you must realize that you may be compromising that FM's performance somewhere else along the curve.

[toonces 4]

Wagsled,

I've been working on some tactics stuff with the Phantom, especially in later scenarios- say hypothetical early 80's.

 

The tactics you described work very well against the MiG 17/19/21. However, I'm curious what your thoughts are when flying the Phantom against the MiG-23, and, especially, the MiG-29A?

 

I realize that by the early 80's the Phantom was being phased out by the USN/USMC and USAF, however in the event of a cold war conflict that broke out in '82, I'm curious how Phantom tactics were evolving against these more maneuverable threats.

 

For example, going vertical in a Phantom against a MiG-17 may work well, but if you go vert with a MiG-29A, he's just as likely to follow you up, dance around you, and then hit you when you're nice and bled out, right?

[exhausted 55]

Probably similar to tactics with F-15s and F-16s during the same era. The F-15s would do fighter sweeps and protect the Phantoms as needed. The Phantoms would probably try to avoid MiG-29s altogether.

[dare2 0]

Actually, i think that used to its strength, the fa is a great dogfighter. Climb rate, dive acceleration, acceleration in burner all makes for a very efficient yo-yo tactics capability.

 

You'll loose any Mig-17/19 and even be able to cope with a Mig-21 is you don't try to turn tight with them, loose energy and speed etc, if you manage to stay between 350 and 450 kts most of the time, below that you'll be in trouble.

 

I have to say that it's not the kind of bird that frustrate me in a dogdfight, i'd rather feel this way flying a Hun for example, because it can't turn with a 17 and is only marginaly more performant...

 

My other and first choice for the job is the F-8.

[PhantomPhan 2]

Thanks for the numbers! I've been looking for a good climb speed on intercepts