A thought (question) on future MP

[snapple2993 0]

I dont have any jet sims except for SF; well I have Flanker but I dont play it because my Saitek isnt very compatible. And I'm wondering if we as a community are going to turn this fabulous sim into some sort of balls to the wall in tight guns and heaters war online. Would we be limiting this game by doing so, are we condemned to this? If it becomes a long range fight for who gets the lock first gets the kill; and will that be making the whole mp experience limited to flying the F-15. Or will we opt for the balls to the wall fight, and all end up flying a Su-27?

 

The question I'm getting at is, are we just going to have to settle for one kind of game, becuase eventually we are going to come to a consensus on what we want mp to be.

 

In SF it is either who gets the lock first wins, or they both lose, or its just guns, and whoever is flying the mig-17 or Super Echo (properly) wins.

 

Now, of course I dont want to have one kind of game. My idea of the ideal LOMAC experience would be to have like 40 people flying all kinds of planes, and performing all kinds of roles. With ground targets, and the ability to knock out airfields.

 

I honestly do not know what a Jet sim of this era is like online. So I guess I'm relying on the people that have played flanker, and F-22, and F-18 online to tell me what it is like.

 

And finally, what would you prefer? A balls to the wall fight, or shootem down from 30 miles away?

[Seawolf 0]

Well Snapple, I consider myself an old dog when it comes to online air combat. I started with Fighters Anthology and a 28.8 modem and progressed through Hornet Korea, Falcon4, and recently Janes F18 where I held the #2 slot on the official JF18 1v1 ladder so I think I have a good idea about what makes a good online experience in a combat sim. (was that too much ego? oh well)

 

Let's break it down into two groups:

 

Group 1- (A/A) These are your typical head to head dogfighters. This group likes custom missions designed to keep both sides at an even vantage point until the merge and then its pilot skill and how well he knows his aircraft that determines the outcome, but this is the dogfight group and they are out for blood.

 

Group 2- (A/G) These are your COOP ground pounders. These guys like big complex missions with about 12-16 other pilots in the same flight. They like about an hour brief before the flight and have everything planned to the T. This group is in for the combat experince and keeping it as true to life as possible. Tedious, maticulous, and some might say Anal, but make no mistake these guys perform missions such as STRIKE, SEAD, etc from start to finish as if they were really there.

 

Now with these two groups keep in mind that both are hardcore to thier specific area of expertise. Group 1 loves the thrill of dogfighting and uses every real world tactic to achieve thier goal, which is to kill the bad guy deader than hell. Group 2 is just as hardcore, but for them emphasis is placed on planning, coordination, execution,etc and recreating a mission from start to finish just like the real deals do it.

 

I consider myself in group 1 with a little group 2 thrown in for flavor.

 

Now as far as Lomac goes I think the head to head dogfighters out there will be very pleased because when dogfighting in Janes F18 you didnt get a choice of aircraft. Everyone online flew F18s , even the oposition, so although it made things even as far as aircraft go it got pretty boring since you could not learn your own aircraft or use certain advantages on a apponant. Lomac gives us the opportunity to actually fly against different aircraft which adds a whole other factor to the dogfight. Each pilot has the ability to learn his or her aircraft and use its strengths in a fight as well as get caught with its weaknesses.

A F15c against a SU27 makes for a very interesting engagement if both pilots "know" thier aircraft.

Or a MIG29k against a SU27. Makes dogfighting more dynamic like in real life.

 

As far as the ground pounders go they will be making good use out of that mission builder and comming up with some really nice missions for that A10. You will be able to split up between two flights and even 4 flights with soviet vs nato in a mission as if you were fighting a real war.

 

Imagine if you will you have a flight of 2 A10s and 2 F15s in a SEAD mission with the Eagles providing cover for the Hogs. On the other side you have 2 SU25s and 2 SU27s (or even 4 SU27s as intercept). The two sides can fly against each other in the same mission. It wont take long before someone comes up with thier own campaign built with missions like this just for coop play online. This is why when people start to cry about the dynamic campaign It doesnt really matter, having a good mission builder is way better than any dynamic campaign (IMO). Now that being said if its a DC like what you see in EECH where its force on force and you can fly against each other in real time like a real war then that would be great, but the next best thing is a good missions builder.

 

 

As far as the standard for online flying it will come down to what the different squads come up with after a little time online with Lomac. You can expect full realism settings unless something is hosed up like in Janes F15 with the realistic flight model (highly unlikely with lomac, just an example) or anything else. External views I dont see as a big deal AS LONG AS the Blackout works in external view as well. If blackouts dont occur in externals then they may have to be disabled during competitions. I think JF18 didnt have blackouts in external either and we still used external view so it shouldnt be a biggie. Whatever happens I dont want to see this community get so anal about settings like the IL2 bunch did that it kills the fun online with Lomac.

 

For Head to Head engagements (4v4 or 2v2 etc) you will probably see a setup where you have a custom mission approved by both squads or teams which has some good terrain for terrain masking, starting distance will be around 30nm to the merge for both sides, weapons loadouts will probably be Heaters and guns only with sparrows being used is agreed by both sides (AIM120s take a lot of the skill out of the dogfight and arent used in 4v4 engagements much online, sparrows need a constant lock or HOJ to work so more skill involved).

 

A/G coops will be totally up to the host and what he has planned out so should be no problem there, but get ready for some intense competition from a lot of squadrons online.

 

Since Lomac will most likely be at Hyperlobby I'm sure all the old timers will be back who have been hybernating for a couple of years and its gonna be one hell of a ride people.

 

BTW- We can be friends all you want in these forums, but once we are wheels up if your not on my team then your a drone. lol

[snapple2993 0]

Hmmm.... I'm kinda wanting a free for all. All weapons, all planes. Say starting at like 50 nm.

 

I'd really like to see carrier ops in mp. Imagine having 2 navies and 2 land based groups. And having the ability to knock out these carriers and airfields. In which case the Navy boys would have to find land bases, and if the airfields got knocked out, having to find a secondary base.

 

I'm kind of a group 2 guy. I like to blow up things in IL2, but I find most people just like to shoot at eachother, and that sucks when flying an He-111. But in SF, I like to dog fight and I use external views, but only when I'm not in a dog fight.... I like to look at my plane .

 

I'm just hoping for something massive and unseen in mp before. Kinda like the Alpha strike thing I've been dying for in SF.... I do want that A-6.

 

And I really really really want the hornet and cat for LOMAC.

 

Thanks for the info,

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

Anybody else got some wishes or comments.... feel free to post.

[Oscar 0]

Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on the mission builder - so many variables. I am looking forward to building joint ops coop missions that involve both group 1 and group 2 types. I have already begun outlining some "Fulda Gap" missions that should be pretty exciting. If the net code is compact enough, I may host these on a server as well. I'm sure BioHazard Central will host downloadable versions of some of these as well.

[Seawolf 0]

Well 4v4 is pretty much a group thing and especially when it turns into a squad match where its last man standing wins it for his squadron things can get pretty intense. Also for the first time Squadrons can actually do real aggressor training using MIG29s and other aircraft.

 

Im sure free for all will be there somewhere, but keep in mind free for alls arent very popular with Jet sims like in Prop sims. The speeds are so much higher and tactics change.

 

I forget who told me this but someone explained the difference between a Prop dogfight and a Jet dogfight as being the same as the difference between playing checkers and chess. Same fundementals, but a lot more going on.

 

Problem with free for alls is lack of any real wingman tactics and if your smart you wont go into any fight without your wingman. Yes it sounds "Top Gun" ish, but it is true.

1v1 engagements were always boring to me and the only reason I did them was for the ladder points. 2v2 and 4v4 is where its at.

 

You will find out real quick that furballs arent much fun and you spend a lot of time in a chute unless you have a good wingman to watch your tail and you both communicate well. Man we would go up against some of these squadrons 4v4 and it was thier best 4 vs our best 4 and in those flights we probably had the best 8 pilots flying against each other out of the whole community. It literally came down to who had the most fuel left as to who won the engagement because we just ran circles around each other. I would actually be sweating when it was over, thats how much fun it was.

 

Trust me Snapple, you dont want IL2 style furballs. Those are fun for about 30 seconds, but the most fun you will have is communicating with a wingman and working as a team. Many online pilots only care about the kills and will leave thier buddies to go Glory hunting for kills, but they usually end up alone and killed themselves. If your job is as a wingman and you are supposed to stay back and cover your partners tail then dont get right up on his butt trying to get in a pot shot, stay back and maintain a position you can react to any threat that gets in the way.

 

It's going to take some practice so be prepared.lol

[Seawolf 0]

Yeah, it sounds real good. I think the possibilities will be endless when it's all said and done with Lomac. At least I hope

 

Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on the mission builder - so many variables.  I am looking forward to building joint ops coop missions that involve both group 1 and group 2 types.  I have already begun outlining some "Fulda Gap" missions that should be pretty exciting. If the net code is compact enough, I may host these on a server as well.  I'm sure BioHazard Central will host downloadable versions of some of these as well.

[TPN_Bard 0]

I've been simming since F-15 strike eagle from microprose, i'd guess about 1984 or so.

 

Online simming tends to be one of two things

 

- airquake

- proper missions.

 

the airquake variety are the easiest to come across - and to tell you the truth airquaking in a prop sim is usually much better than in a jet sim - it requires more skill to do it in a prop as there is more to the flying.

 

proper missions on the other hand are usually somewhat different ;)

 

I've participated in VEF, Iron Skies and a couple of other online wars and i've seen a problem with all of them - trying to do TOO much.

 

What i am hoping to put together is an engagement style online war - where a set of missions are created that are played much in the same style as say, a counterstrike mission. Squads will play against each other in these. Think of it as more of a "hand crafted" set of engagements than a full blown war. This will allow squads to train on these missions, come up with their tactics, and then execute the mission against a live enemy.

 

I need to wait to get my hands on LOMAC before I can really figure out if it will be suitable for this sort of thing, and what KINDS of missions i can create in it but i am very hopeful.

 

One thing i REALLY want to do is test the capacity of the multiplayer code - I want to ensure that every engagement is enjoyable for everyone - i am so sick to death of playing online sims where planes do crazy stuff.

[TPN_Bard 0]

I don't agree with no dynamic campaign not mattering :)

 

For people who aren't going to be able to play online, it's going to make a HUGE difference to them.

[Guest MrMudd]

FYI: you can build missions to suit whatever you want in multiplayer combat online

 

I'm all for the teamwork, and multimission profiles and package taskings.

[snapple2993 0]

Note: what I meant in "Free for all" would be what we have seen in the vids of the ground war. Two sides in a massive conflict.

 

I dont know how spawning is going to work, but I am tired of playing FB, and trying to blow up a ship or column, and always being picked off by some d*ck in a P-47 or Me-262.

 

It would just be cool to see, helo's and ground forces all fighting below you while you provide cover for A-10's or Su-25's.

 

I wont be easing into this game the way I did with IL2 (I used to fly in wonderwoman view, and now I hate being out of my cockpit). I'm planning on learning this game to the max. At one time all I wanted to do was fly the Flanker, but I really dont like Russian planes, and also dont like AF planes... but I do think the hog looks alright (its growing on me little by little).

 

My beef is, I just really wanna be able to be blowing crap up on the ground (while I wait for US carrier ops), and not have to worry about some Kommi in a mig popping me becuase some F-15 pilot decided to chase a mig 20nm away from the combat zone.

 

I guess I'm just hoping for a much better experience online.

 

IL2 doesnt show a whole lot of teamwork, and SF... is well... SF.

 

From what I have read it really depends on the mp code capabilities.

 

4v4 (maybe for A2A) isnt really my thing, as I said I'm into the massive thing, and I'm looking forward to playing this game with all of you.

[Oscar 0]

Now there's an interesting question....

 

I dont know how spawning is going to work, but

 

Are delayed spawns possible or will everyone drop and then those flights with delayed launch times sit and wait? How's this going to work out if you have 2 flights of F-15's inbound from Aviano to arrive 15 minutes into the misson?

[Seawolf 0]

Airquake? hardly.

 

Furball (free for all) is airquake. The types of missions I am referring to pit teams against each other where coordination, skill, teamwork, communication all play a part in winning.

I like Dogfighting online and consider it much more challenging than dropping a bomb on a building. so dont insult me by calling it airquake.

[AirBiskit 0]

I'm much more for humans playing a small part in an overall effort with lots of AI aircraft, meaning:

 

- B-1s

- B-52s

- AWACS

- F-16s

- Mirages

- Tornados

- etc

- etc

 

15s fly top cover

A-10s are around the front lines

 

The red side doing what the red side does.

 

As for competition, it would be cool to give each side an equal number of assets (X amount of bombers, Y number of fighters, Z number of SAMs) and you have parameters for success: After so many hours, 60% of the other sides [airbases, ports, WMD factories, etc] have to be taken out.

 

If a third party could be set up as a referee and had access to both sides logs, that would just be gravy.

 

Make it somewhat close as possible to R/L.

 

Sounds like fun to me!

 

:)

[TPN_Bard 0]

Airquake? hardly.

 

Furball (free for all) is airquake. The types of missions I am referring to pit teams against each other where coordination, skill, teamwork, communication all play a part in winning. 

I like Dogfighting online and consider it much more challenging than dropping a bomb on a building. so dont insult me by calling it airquake.

 

exactly, a set dogfight isn't airquake - that would be an engagement.

 

stuff like IL2FB's dogfight servers are airquake.

 

I hope there is something like Falcon4's matchplay - You choose sides then do your merge and fight until one team is wiped out then it restarts.

[splode 0]

Eh. Okay, that's not airquake - but its just one step up.

 

That's not modern air combat. Thats knuckle-dragging frag-fest addicts that happen to have the latest combat flight simulator. No more.

 

The only thing that appeals to me is like what Air Biskit said - you play a part in an overall plan that looks somewhat like what we've been told is the real deal. Strike package stuff. Where timing is critical. Where ALL weapons are available.

 

That's the kind of online activity I'm interested in.

[Seawolf 0]

Splode, just because you think its a step up from airquake or stupid doesn't mean it actually is. Everyone has thier own specific areas of interest. Some thrive on A/A and some get a kick out of A/G, neither one is better than the other.

[Cudaguy 0]

I agree with Bard and I have to say I fall in the co-op category. :)

[Seawolf 0]

The nice thing about Lomac is we can do Head to Head CAP while a coop SEAD goes on down below. Kind of like a Force on Force battle. Should be cool.

[snapple2993 0]

Yes, and just think if we can institute Carrier Ops! I wonder if that will be available in mp.

[Seawolf 0]

For the SU33 Im sure it will, but we will have to wait a bit (Hopefully) for the American or NATO side of it

[AirBiskit 0]

Just a small note (just had a thought!)

 

HOPEfully, over time, more and more of those jets will move out of the "AI" category and into the "flyable" category.

[TPN_Bard 0]

depends on what happens with LOMAC say, in 2-3 years.

[TPN_Bard 0]

Eh.  Okay, that's not airquake - but its just one step up.

 

That's not modern air combat.  Thats knuckle-dragging frag-fest addicts that happen to have the latest combat flight simulator.  No more.

 

The only thing that appeals to me is like what Air Biskit said - you play a part in an overall plan that looks somewhat like what we've been told is the real deal.  Strike package stuff.  Where timing is critical.  Where ALL weapons are available.

 

That's the kind of online activity I'm interested in.

 

not sure if you've played F4's matchplay, but it's hardly one step up from a furball ;)

 

it would just be a set of meeting engagements between air superiority fighters - without the 20 minutes flying time or 60 minutes on CAP and with the guarantee of engaging the enemy :D

 

engagements on the otherhand are the whole package - that is what I am trying to put together for an online miniwar.