Modding and Realism

[Guest Stiglr]

column5 wrote:

Most of us here agree with your point about attention to detail. Its just the way you present it that sometimes causes a problem. The key to getting a great quality model of any aircraft is that it should be done by someone who is passionate about that particular plane. Its entirely conceivable that someday, someone will come around who is passionate about Japanese aircraft and make some new HD models, similar to the work AD did on the Zero and Betty. Until then, we have to make the most of the existing resources.

 

I hope you won't overreact and lock this topic like you did the last one, column5. The reason any forum exists is to discuss, and sometimes to disagree. Even to disagree with you. We're all big boys and can handle a little debate if that's OK with you...

 

Now, back to the topic. The key to a great quality model is NOT necessarily "passion on the part of the modeler". It's simply pride in your work and a desire to do the job right, and completely.

 

Case in point: over at Targetware, I'm basically THE GUY creating Target:Corregidor. Now, I "lean" to the side of the IJA and IJAAF in my flying preferences, and I'll freely admit that. But, to create the environment, I couldn't just add the Ki-27s and the Nells and ignore the Allied planes that were in that area of the war, and hope for somebody with passion for Hudsons and Blenheims and P-35As and P-26s to "appear" and model those planes. No, I have to create ALL of them. And all of them deserve to be completely modeled, including THEIR cockpit, not that of some other plane.

 

While doing so, I learned a lot about all those "boring" or "uninteresting" planes that will usually just be "targets" for me when I'm actually flying Target:Corregidor. So, while creating those new planes (and yes, new pits to go with them) I got interested and became somewhat of a "fan" of Severskys and Hudsons and what have you. You can't help it when you get a hold of the Pilot Manual, and make the detail described in it gibe with the knobs, levers and switches in your virtual cockpit.

 

Again, it's attention to detail and pride in one's work. I'd be EMBARASSED to release a plane with a "borrowed" pit. Just as I'd be embarassed to release a 3D model that was actually another plane, just "called" something different. "A rose is a rose is a rose", not "A rose is a dandelion is a rose."

 

Finally, what's even more embarassing is to have people in the community pat you on the back for a job half done. To me, that says the community doesn't value complete, accurate work either.

 

Yes, lack of resources will always be an issue (it's even more of an issue at Targetware!), but still that doesn't override the "do the job and do it right" axiom... at least in my book.

 

Now, I hope that "the way I just presented that" doesn't rub folks the wrong way. But, I'm not going to mollycoddle people and spoonfeed them what they want to hear just to keep things all shiny and happy. That's SimHQ political crap. I just prefer to call it as I see it, and let others worry about which eggshells they need to tiptoe over.

 

And, for petulant Timmy, I'd think that by posting this, I'm actually advocating for you and everyone else to get MORE, not less, out of this game system. So, while you may think I'm "not contributing anything", I really am.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Stiglr

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

I agree to some extent, but then to butcher an old adage, The perfect is the enemy of the good............... and another......... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Given most stuff is freeware, made with limited budgets and limited time.................... accuracy ain't always guaranteed. It's an old discussion, but if you don't like it, don't download it. Personally, I'm happy to 'make do', but it takes all sorts........................ which is the point. This community is made up of 'all sorts'.

 

Remember Sony's 'Perfect Sound Forever', with the launch of the CD way back when. Well, CD's ain't perfect, the sound is often debatable and they don't last forever. I remember going down the road of trying to get the most from vinyl, hankering after esoteric electronics (copies of Stereophile, etc.).................. but real life, time, money got in the way. Plus, as we age, the hearing goes, so, ultimately, I'm going to just enjoy the pleasant stereo I have, without getting too worked up about ambience, presence, etc., etc.

 

Which is where I am with the TW series.

[column5 63]

column5 wrote:

I hope you won't overreact and lock this topic like you did the last one, column5. The reason any forum exists is to discuss, and sometimes to disagree. Even to disagree with you. We're all big boys and can handle a little debate if that's OK with you...

 

Stiglr, I locked the previous topic so I wouldn't have to delete it later. Same goes for this one. If it gets personal as the last one did, or starts to flare up, I'm going to lock it before it gets out of hand. I don't know why you think I disagree with you, I told you otherwise. You'll note that I left your comments in the Ki-61 thread intact.

 

That said, I stand by my opinion that the best work comes from people who are passionate about the subject at hand. It doesn't matter if you are making a movie, writing a book, creating a model airplane, or just doing your day to day job. Pride in one's work is a big factor, no doubt, but you have to have desire and passion to make it all come together.

 

You do need to come to terms with the fact that people have different levels of skill, and different opinions of what constitutes an acceptable level of realism. As far as I am concerned, as long as someone gives 100% of what they have, they should not be chastised, but encouraged to continue modding so they will get better. On the other hand, there are some that think a lazy, subpar effort is worthy of praise, and I agree with you that that is embarassing.

[Syrinx 13]

Again, it's attention to detail and pride in one's work. I'd be EMBARASSED to release a plane with a "borrowed" pit. Just as I'd be embarassed to release a 3D model that was actually another plane, just "called" something different. "A rose is a rose is a rose", not "A rose is a dandelion is a rose."

 

Finally, what's even more embarassing is to have people in the community pat you on the back for a job half done. To me, that says the community doesn't value complete, accurate work either.

 

Yes, lack of resources will always be an issue (it's even more of an issue at Targetware!), but still that doesn't override the "do the job and do it right" axiom... at least in my book.

 

Now, I hope that "the way I just presented that" doesn't rub folks the wrong way. But, I'm not going to mollycoddle people and spoonfeed them what they want to hear just to keep things all shiny and happy. That's SimHQ political crap. I just prefer to call it as I see it, and let others worry about which eggshells they need to tiptoe over.

 

And, for petulant Timmy, I'd think that by posting this, I'm actually advocating for you and everyone else to get MORE, not less, out of this game system. So, while you may think I'm "not contributing anything", I really am.

 

Well Stiglr, if you'd be embarrassed to release a plane with a "borrowed" pit then that's your choice. What you are inferring here is that people that do this should be embarrassed too?

 

Some guys are just starting out modding, everyone's got to start somewhere. Excellence comes of experience, it takes time and can be a steep learning curve.

 

I'm more than happy to "pat someone on the back" for even the tiniest mod. It's called contributing to the community.

 

In fact you could say these folks are standing on the shoulders of giants because there are some extremely talented people here.

 

Of course the community values complete and accurate work, but it also values the the humblest of work and I for one will always stick up for these people. It's not mollycoddling it's encouraging.

 

I too prefer to call it as I see it and I see this:

 

A half-baked attempt to come across as trying to be helpful yet in reality it smacks of a condescending attitude to the community as a whole and quite franky a thinly-veiled advertisement for Targetware.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Stiglr, nothing wrong with that at all.

 

And look...no eggshells as far as I can see.

[+Erik 1,812]

Debate topics, not people.

 

If all discussions maintained that most basic courtesy we'd never have to lock anything. Until they do our staff has my full support.

 

If I had any issue with someone's modding release I'd personally pick up my modding tools and offer a collaborative work to better the community. I certainly would never say to anyone that their abilities are anything other than appreciated.

 

Just my dimes (inflation you know) worth of opinion.

 

Erik

[+suhsjake 11]

I'm going to say a few things on this topic...

 

1. This isn't the targetware community or the targetware game. Don't compare two communities or the two games as they are different.

2. We work with what resources we have. Not everyone can model, but others can put two things together so at least a plane works.

3. You are what I would call a ribbet counter. Everything has to be realistic or its unacceptable. Somethings cannot be realistic right now as we don't have the right resources.

 

That's all I have to say about this topic.

[Guest Stiglr]

Glad to hear that column5 isn't waiting with padlocks.

 

First off, thanks to all who reply in the spirit of good, old-fashioned debate. Agree with you or not, I think all of us agree on one thing: ALL of us are entitled to have an opinion.

 

Now, to address some of the comments since this started:

 

Hinchinbrooke wrote:

if you don't like it, don't download it.

 

That's rather obvious, pretty much goes without saying, and sidesteps the quality issue.

 

NFG wrote:

I too prefer to call it as I see it and I see this:

 

A half-baked attempt to come across as trying to be helpful yet in reality it smacks of a condescending attitude to the community as a whole and quite franky a thinly-veiled advertisement for Targetware.

 

My attempt to be helpful is not half-baked. If attention to detail and pride in craftsmanship is "condescending" then I suppose you'd have to bring the tar brush on that one. Guilty as charged. But if you look in some other threads, you'll see I do offer resource help. Like in the thread about the Philippines campaign, I offered a P-35 pit... and as I'm now doing a P-26, the offer stands for that as well.

 

suhsjake wrote:

1. This isn't the targetware community or the targetware game. Don't compare two communities or the two games as they are different.

2. We work with what resources we have. Not everyone can model, but others can put two things together so at least a plane works.

3. You are what I would call a ribbet counter. Everything has to be realistic or its unacceptable. Somethings cannot be realistic right now as we don't have the right resources.

 

1. No, but the subject matter is the same, and frankly, resources like 2D and 3D objects and files CAN be used for both; the two communities CAN share resources if they like. And of course you compare two sims covering the same subject. Just like you can compare a Honda and a Ford to see which you prefer, or if you want to own and drive both. The two communities' dynamics ARE very different, I would agree. But, I won't go any further than that, for fear of appearing "condescending".

 

2. Same as at Targetware. The difference is whether anyone would release a plane with a "standin" pit. At Targetware, pretty much a person would use a standin perhaps while doing the import testing of the 3D. And, come to think of it, there actually ARE a few birds that use standin pits! But, my opinion of that there is the same as it is here.

 

3. I'm not actually a rivet counter. Even I see some things as, "close enough for government work." But an entire cockpit is not what I'd call a small detail like number of rivets along a panel line. To use the analogy I used before, a ersatz pit is as LARGE an error as using a completely different shape and passing it off as an "additional" aircraft. It just isn't so.

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

Glad to hear that column5 isn't waiting with padlocks.

 

First off, thanks to all who reply in the spirit of good, old-fashioned debate. Agree with you or not, I think all of us agree on one thing: ALL of us are entitled to have an opinion.

 

Now, to address some of the comments since this started:

 

Hinchinbrooke wrote:

 

 

That's rather obvious, pretty much goes without saying, and sidesteps the quality issue.

 

Yes, I know it's obvious, but my ultimate point is that not every one is Stiglr. You can rant and rail all you like about quality....... as you see it. Others see differently. Unless the modding world is subjected to the Stiglr Modding Police For Quality Control........................, things aren't going to change, and I'm puzzled that you can't see this.

 

What is perfection anyway? As my Father always says, never vote for a politician, and never believe the book you read last.

 

Chances are you'll discover that today's accuracy is tomorrow's rubbish.

[+JSF_Aggie 1,291]

Stiglr,

 

Just curious, do you play any of the SF series of sims?

[Wrench 9,847]

I was actually going to stay out of this completely, but it looks like it's still civilized...for now....

 

So...

 

To use the analogy I used before, a ersatz pit is as LARGE an error as using a completely different shape and passing it off as an "additional" aircraft. It just isn't so.

 

Well, hell!!! There's goes my reskinning the B5N or SNJ into a "stand-in" SB2U for Midway. Nuts!

 

Here's another quote, right out of the readme for the recently released Tony skin. Again, my opinon, with some facts mixed in for good measure:

 

There's been some discussion of late on the Boards about "re-purposing" cockpits. Well, we make do with what we have. Unfortunately, the realites are:

1) I have less than ZERO 3d modleing skill, (little pun there, for IJAAF/IJN aircraft)

2) There are only 5 or 6 people that DO have the skills needed to build cockpits, and they're up to their necks with Real Life ™ and other projects,

3) There are only 2 -count them- 2, accurate Japanese WW2 cockpits - both by ArmorDave. His Zero pit, with refelector gunsight (but having the wrong canopy framing), and his Oscar pit, that has a telescopic sight, but closer framing. Unfortunately, nothing can be done with these, without having the original MAX files to work from. I'm sure these are long lost, given the age of these aircraft.

 

So, back to the original question: why'd I choose the Hurricane pit? Because it's all we have to work with. Plane and simple. Sorry, that's the whole truth. Now, if someone DOES have a accurate pit, all they need to do it run it through MAX, export it with the 3rdWire exporter, build the cockpit ini, and make several dozen WW2 players exstaticly (sp?) happy. Nuff said! :)

 

I totally agree with having, as accurate as possible, whatever is needed to make the mod complete. You'll never get an argument out of me for that -- my Real Life ™ training has shown that if I made a mistake in my work, or took the 'it's good enough' attitude, people could possibly DIE because of it.

 

So, as in the past, you've offered up you work. Let me say, PLEASE! Build us an accurate Tony pit (or any bird's pit, for that matter!!!), get it in game -in a 3rd Wire Game-, get it dialed in; do what's necessary to get it into the hands of folks that want it. Give us the MAX files even; perhaps SOMEONE skilled enough will step up, and take on the challenge. Who knows, cause I sure as hell don't!!

 

Back to work, I got skins and maps to complete....

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Heck 496]

Stigler. If you're really serious about contributing something tangible to the community, I have a request. An Me-109G6, complete with cockpit, and two detachable underwing 20mm cannon pods. It's a type missing from the WW2 collection, and a number of campaign builders would love to have this aircraft, so they can build realistic Bomber campaigns over Europe. If you're really serious about joining in, it would be an excellent place to start, and I, for one, would really appreciate a well done model of it. I hope you'll consider it.

 

Heck

[+suhsjake 11]

Back to work, I got skins and maps to complete....

 

Amen to that.

[eraser_tr 29]

 

 

 

 

I happen to have a passion for the P-35, but not rivet counting.

[Guest Stiglr]

What is perfection anyway?

 

Nothing like what I can produce, I'll tell you that. But perfection's not the goal. Accuracy is. But the point you're missing is there's a big divide between desired perfection and not even caring if there's any quality at all. The "right" cockpit is not a "small detail". Those who are accusing me of being a rivet counter for wanting something approximating a correct cockpit, all I can do is shake my head.

 

@ Heck: sorry, doing a 109G6 is not in my plans. Frankly, it's already been done for Targetware, so if I wanted to mod it, I'd get in touch with the folks that created it and go from there.

 

As far as being condescending is concerned, it's pretty presumptuous of YOU to give me an assignment for what to contribute to the community. I could turn the question on you: why don't YOU create a G6 with underwing pods and cockpit? You're more involved in this community than I.

 

And, to everyone, the initial point I'm making is STILL valid. Same as it ever was.

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

BS

 

 

Ahem We thank you for you ...ahem oppinion. First of all ( its your Oppinion, and your speaking for yourself ) I am not quite sure that most of us feel the same way you do..At least not me.....I am starting modeling and still have a lot to learn..In fact I have several models that I could release But will not do so until that i am satisfied that..to the best of my skill i did my best. The pat on the back for me is not embarassing...actualy its encouraging me to continue...also due to the game engine..there are limits on what you can do...you want quality models ??? there an avarage of about $200 each at sites like turbosquid. Are you Indian by chance ?

Edited August 14, 2008 by Veltro2k

[Guest Stiglr]

Wrench wrote:

Give us the MAX files even...

 

Well, I've offered those in the past, for the Meteor, for the P-35A, for any plane I've modelled. But, I've gotten no requests from anyone for them. Not that I'd notice from all the attacks from those who blast me for mentioning an issue like this. Now, whose fault is that?

 

Here's where it sits:

I am not a ThirdWire modder; nor do I actively play the sims. I have not learned the procedures for importing files for this system. Why? Frankly, the issues with regard to "sim lite" and this particular "accuracy vs. who-cares-if-it's-close" dynamic are reasons why I don't do more than watch this community for signs it'll someday get serious.

 

But, I can and will share resources. So, any of you who CAN do imports can request the files, I'll provide them and then you CAN produce more accurate pits. If you want.

[column5 63]

Uhm...veltro...sorry you thought what I said was BS.

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

Uhm...veltro...sorry you thought what I said was BS.

 

 

Check again Bro..My Bad :blush2: I meant what you know who said was BS,,I changed it

[column5 63]

Not that I'd notice from all the attacks from those who blast me for mentioning an issue like this.

 

I'm curious...now that you have raised the issue...what do you expect to happen next?

[column5 63]

Check again Bro..My Bad :blush2: I meant what you know who said was BS,,I changed it

 

Just messing with ya! A quote tag got lost somewhere up there and I got credit for stiggy's prose.

[Guest Stiglr]

veltro wrote:

 

Ahem We thank you for you ...ahem oppinion. First of all ( its your Oppinion, and your speaking for yourself ) I am not quite sure that most of us feel the same way you do..At least not me.....I am starting modeling and still have a lot to learn..In fact I have several models that I could release But will not do so until that i am satisfied that..to the best of my skill i did my best. The pat on the back for me is not embarassing...actualy its encouraging me to continue...also due to the game engine..there are limits on what you can do...you want quality models ??? there an avarage of about $200 each at sites like turbosquid.

 

Encouragement will come as you get better. What you folks don't know is that when I first started modeling I got criticism of my first work that was 10x worse than the cr*p you guys fling at me here. But I also learned to learn from criticism when it is warranted. If someone points out a fault or a mistake and they're right...well, they're right. Improve your work and keep on keepin' on.

 

Also, I fail to see how you can say that there's stuff you wouldn't release before you're satisfied with it... and then agree with the people who don't care if the cockpit of a plane even belongs to the type.

 

As for the value of models... well, my modeling has gotten fairly decent and fairly accurate over time... but I sure don't think I could make a mint selling them. I'm more into contributing to a good flight sim than making a buck off it. Even if I did do it for a living, I'd end up at someplace like WWIIOL, where I'd be making planes... but for a system that doesn't value realism and has tons of "playbalance bias". No thanks.

 

I will be satisfied, though, when I get to release Target:Corregidor, perhaps in the forthcoming Targetware 2.x engine. That, and flying for the first time with others over Malaya and Luzon will be all the payment I'll ever need.

 

Are you Indian by chance ?

 

1. No.

2. What difference would it make if I WAS?

3. I'm frankly offended by the question, not even understanding which ethnic "implication" you're making.

4. Just offering you an opportunity to take a really big shoe out of your mouth...

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

Just messing with ya! A quote tag got lost somewhere up there and I got credit for stiggy's prose.

 

 

No Prob Bro...I just cant get over I have models like a MIG-31 Su-24 Bear Voodoo ,and what was my first upload....Snoopy on top of a flying doghouse with two 37 mm Paws

[WarlordATF 1]

Maybe this just isn't the sim for you, we don't take things as seriously as alot of other communitys do and i for one am greatful for that. I left the F4 community because they take it too serious, its just a game. Unless you are jumping into a flightsuit and straping on a aircraft and being shot at, its just a game.

 

Would i prefer every plane to have the correct cockpit? Sure, but all things considered its just not always possible. Do i want to wait months for a correct pit when i can have the aircraft today with a standin pit? No, I'll take it however they decide to release it and if i feel that the pit they choose is not the one i would have picked then i make a simple edit and use the one i like.

 

If i was that picky about it almost half of my install would have to be removed. I praise those who release things for this community because i value there effort. They can do things i can't and i am glad they do. I don't take games that serious,i play them to have fun.Take the Raptor Teams F-22A, I wanted the YF-22 so i could have it available in 1991. Guess what i did? I made a skin and used the F-22A even though the model is quite a bit different and i am happy with it.

 

I'm glad you are so happy with Targetware, but this is the Thirdwire community and we do things for fun first and accuracy takes a backseat sometimes. I don't care if they have only released a single skin,a ground unit,a plane with a standin pit or a ultra detailed aircraft, they are all worthy of praise IMO and i thank them for there work. If they only way to have fun is by everything being spot on perfect there are alot of other communitys to join, please don't try to bring that crap over here.

[+Veltro2k 6,351]

veltro wrote:

 

 

 

Encouragement will come as you get better. What you folks don't know is that when I first started modeling I got criticism of my first work that was 10x worse than the cr*p you guys fling at me here. But I also learned to learn from criticism when it is warranted. If someone points out a fault or a mistake and they're right...well, they're right. Improve your work and keep on keepin' on.

 

Also, I fail to see how you can say that there's stuff you wouldn't release before you're satisfied with it... and then agree with the people who don't care if the cockpit of a plane even belongs to the type.

 

As for the value of models... well, my modeling has gotten fairly decent and fairly accurate over time... but I sure don't think I could make a mint selling them. I'm more into contributing to a good flight sim than making a buck off it. Even if I did do it for a living, I'd end up at someplace like WWIIOL, where I'd be making planes... but for a system that doesn't value realism and has tons of "playbalance bias". No thanks.

 

I will be satisfied, though, when I get to release Target:Corregidor, perhaps in the forthcoming Targetware 2.x engine. That, and flying for the first time with others over Malaya and Luzon will be all the payment I'll ever need.

 

 

 

1. No.

2. What difference would it make if I WAS?

3. I'm frankly offended by the question, not even understanding which ethnic "implication" you're making.

4. Just offering you an opportunity to take a really big shoe out of your mouth...

 

actualy that wasnt an offence...Some one asked me if i know someone who can do IAF skins and was going to ask you if you did ?

[Guest Stiglr]

I'm curious...now that you have raised the issue...what do you expect to happen next?

 

Well, lots could happen:

 

1. People could keep defending inaccurate pits, under the guise of... well, I don't know what. It's pretty indefensible, if you ask me.

 

2. Somebody who cares and who has the skillset with Wo* could contact me about the resources and perhaps some pits could be improved, or given more accurate pits...that offer was never actually taken off the table.

 

3. You can ignore the issue. Which is fine, too. But, every now and then, I'll bring up the point again about releasing a plane with a stand-in pit... and, annoyingly enough, I'll still be right about it... ;)