Another question about CAS and ground wars in WOV...

[+malibu43 142]

So, long story short, I was using modded campaign files by TeTeT that add a full ground war to WOV. However, because of the way the units are placed, the front line gets all squirrely after one offensive move and most of Thailand turns "red" and squadrons get relocated and all goes to hell. This works alright in fictional campaigns, but we all know this isn't how Vietnam played out...

 

So, what I want to do, is basically fix where the ground war will take place and not allow friendly or enemy units to progress past a certain point. But I do want the ground war to be continuous and last for a long time.

 

One idea I'm toying with, is to have a friendly unit that's "indestructable" (just don't associate it with a .lod or model) so that the enemy will continuousely attack that area, but never be able to capture it. I'm not sure if this will work, though...

 

Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions for how this might be able to work?

 

Thanks.

[+malibu43 142]

I'm working right now on reworking the nodes and ground units so a ground offensive from either side will stall out on either side of the DMZ. It seems to be working so far. What this will do is result in both sides battling back and forth along the DMZ, but not enough ground being gained to cause the frontlines to get all crazy or any squadrons to be re-located.

 

Here's what I have. This also results in battles in two different locations along the front, to keep things exciting. It works at least throught the first offensive. I haven't seen what the losing side does yet after they've had time to re-supply and mount a counter-offensive. Both sides need to have groundoffensiveallowed set to true for this work.

 

 

[GroundUnit001]

GroundObjectType=US_Squad

UnitName=1/13 Marine Regiment

ForceID=1

Nation=USMC

BaseArea=DMZ South

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=100

MaxObjects=100

Experience=80

Morale=70

Supply=100

Intelligence=100

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit002]

GroundObjectType=VC_Squad

UnitName=2nd VC Infantry Division

ForceID=2

Nation=NVietnam

BaseArea=DMZ North

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=60

MaxObjects=100

Experience=50

Morale=40

Supply=40

Intelligence=20

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit003]

GroundObjectType=M113

UnitName=1/9 Marine Regiment

ForceID=1

Nation=USMC

BaseArea=HUE

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=100

MaxObjects=100

Experience=80

Morale=70

Supply=100

Intelligence=100

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit004]

GroundObjectType=NVA_Squad

UnitName=1st NVA Infantry Division

ForceID=2

Nation=NVietnam

BaseArea=Dong Hoi

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=60

MaxObjects=100

Experience=50

Morale=40

Supply=40

Intelligence=20

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit005]

GroundObjectType=US_Squad

UnitName=1/7 Marine Regiment

ForceID=1

Nation=USMC

BaseArea=DMZ South West

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=100

MaxObjects=100

Experience=80

Morale=70

Supply=100

Intelligence=100

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit006]

GroundObjectType=VC_Squad

UnitName=3nd VC Infantry Division

ForceID=2

Nation=NVietnam

BaseArea=DMZ North West

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=60

MaxObjects=100

Experience=50

Morale=40

Supply=40

Intelligence=20

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit007]

GroundObjectType=US_Squad

UnitName=1/5 Marine Regiment

ForceID=1

Nation=USMC

BaseArea=FSB Athena

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=100

MaxObjects=100

Experience=80

Morale=70

Supply=100

Intelligence=100

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

[GroundUnit008]

GroundObjectType=NVA_Squad

UnitName=4th NVA Infantry Division

ForceID=2

Nation=NVietnam

BaseArea=Khe Phat

RandomChance=100

StartObjects=60

MaxObjects=100

Experience=50

Morale=40

Supply=40

Intelligence=20

UpgradeType=NEVER

StartDate=

StartDateDeviation=

 

 

 

 

//----- Nodes

 

 

[strategicNode001]

Area=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

[strategicNode002]

Area=FSB Athena

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=537600,558000

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=529300,567800

 

[strategicNode003]

Area=Khe Phat

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint529300,567800

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

[strategicNode004]

Area=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=529300,567800

 

[strategicNode005]

Area=DMZ North

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode006]

Area=Hue

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=559600,558100

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ North

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=550300,567900

 

[strategicNode007]

Area=Dong Hoi

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=550300,567900

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode008]

Area=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=550300,567900

 

*edit* - if a mod wants to merge this with the other thread I have that discusses almost the same thing ("Strange Frontlines in Rolling Thunder"), that would be fine. Sorry for the redundancy!

Edited October 13, 2008 by malibu43

[TeTeT 0]

Thanks for checking this. I believe the best way would be to have strategic nodes in Thailand that protect the airbases there. The frontline might still look a bit weird,but better than now.

[+malibu43 142]

Thanks for checking this. I believe the best way would be to have strategic nodes in Thailand that protect the airbases there. The frontline might still look a bit weird,but better than now.

 

That would probably help with the frontline extending way into Thailand. However, another thing I noticed, is that sometimes a ground offensive will be taking place while you're tasked with a strike mission or CAP or something not totally related. In this case there's nothing you can do to affect the outcome of the ground battle, and the enemy will end up gaining ground. A couple missions like this, and Hue can be overun. Like I said, this is all part of the game, but historically not accurate. I think the best way to handle it is to set up all the nodes such that one side can't get too far past the front line.

 

I made some changes to what I posted earlier, and the result is the NVA and VC attempting to cross the DMZ, but go no further. The US should fight to retake the South DMZ positions, but never cross into the North.

 

[strategicNode001]

Area=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

[strategicNode002]

Area=FSB Athena

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=537600,558000

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode003]

Area=Khe Phat

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint529300,567800

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

[strategicNode004]

Area=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode005]

Area=DMZ North

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode006]

Area=Hue

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=559600,558100

ConnectTo[002].Target=South West

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

[strategicNode007]

Area=Dong Hoi

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ North

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=550300,567900

ConnectTo[002].Target=DMZ South

ConnectTo[002].BasePoint=559600,558100

 

[strategicNode008]

Area=DMZ South

ConnectTo[001].Target=DMZ South West

ConnectTo[001].BasePoint=537600,558000

 

I don't know if I'll have a chance to try it out, but it may be possible to place friendly nodes that are "unreachable" by NVA/VC forces (not connected) around Thailand, and then create battles similar to what I have above all around south vietnam. This would ultimately be a more realistic scenario. More complicated, though.

[+malibu43 142]

A little editing of the frontline entry in movement.ini, some carefully placed nodes and ground units, and...

 

 

Bam!!!

 

I haven't really tested this much yet, but nodes are placed and limited such that either side shouldn't advance more than one postition past their starting positions (which are shown on the map). So, the frontline shouldn't really move around too much. The way the stock WOV campaign's are written, the North never really goes on offensive at all, so I modified some of the supply levels and requirements to hopefully enable the north to go on small quick offensives every once in a while. But there's still one thing I really need help with...

 

The RT campaign is 3 years long, and after a couple offensives (a few months) the North is completely out of ground units (if you're doing your job right!). I can add addtional ground units with start dates every few months, but to keep all three of the fronts alive for three years wil require probably 80-90 ground unit entries. Yuck. So, I noticed that there's a GroundUnitReplacementTime= and GroundUnitReplacement= entries in the campaign_Data.ini.

 

Can anyone tell me what these values are exactly and how they're measured? Any additional infor regarding what effects when/how ground units are replaced? For example, what do I need to do to have ground units replaced almost as soon as they're destroyed (as long their base area is still on their side of the front line)?

 

Thanks!

[+malibu43 142]

OK, I posted this question a the TW forum, but haven't gotten a response yet. I'll try here:

 

OK, one more question. What is GroundUnitReplacement time measured in? Is that day's, offensive missions, etc...? What other factors affect this?

 

Essentailly, I want ground units for both sides to replenish immediately (or as quickly as possible) so that ground offensive can happen as much as possible. What value would I want for GroundUnitReplacementTime and what other factors affect it?

 

Thanks!

 

I know someone here knows the answer to this... I'm sure that GroundUnitReplacement time is number of offensive missions or number of days before units are replaced, but I have no idea what GroundUnitReplacement is.

 

Any help is appreciated!

[snapper 21 767]

Hi malibu 43

 

Like the look of where you are going with this.

 

With the front line the way you have it, does that mean we could have truck routes in Laos and Cambodia maybe with some "rest camps" without messing up the ground campaign?

 

Cheers

 

Snapper 21

[+malibu43 142]

Hi malibu 43

 

Like the look of where you are going with this.

 

With the front line the way you have it, does that mean we could have truck routes in Laos and Cambodia maybe with some "rest camps" without messing up the ground campaign?

 

Cheers

 

Snapper 21

 

Yep. I'm using a tweaked version of TeTeT's targets.ini and movement.ini files. There are VC camps in laos/cambodia that are fragged duing strikes, and I added truck routes between them so you get some armed recon in the mountains of laos/cambodia.

 

I just need someone to answer my question regarding ground unit replacement, and then I think we'll be all set with a full vietnam ground war!

[snapper 21 767]

Sounds really good, look forward to trying it.

 

Cheers

 

Snapper 21

[+malibu43 142]

How about this...

 

Here are the modified targets.ini, types.ini, movement.ini, and RTcampaigndata.ini (you have to rename them as .ini):

 

VIETNAMSEA_MOVEMENT.txt

VIETNAMSEA_TARGETS.txt

VIETNAMSEA_TYPES.txt

WOVCAMPRT_DATA.txt

 

Of course BACK UP YOUR ORIGINALS FIRST! Then drop movment, targets, and types into the vietnamSEA terrain folder. Place WOVCAMPRT_data.ini in the Rolling Thunder campaign folder.

 

You'll need to download and install the soviet artillery pack http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...p;showfile=6043

and the infantry pack http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...p;showfile=5350

 

Consider these a beta. Everything should work, however, I have no idea if/when ground units will be "replenished". There is a possibility that after the first offensive from each side, all the NVietnamese squads will be destroyed (if you're doing your job) and they may never come back. I think there will be an Offensive around Da Nang, then a little later one up by the DMZ, then one down by Pleiku. Hopefully we'll get some recurring battles in these areas, and not just the initial fight between the initial units.

 

Feel free to play with the GroundUnitReplacementTime and GroundUnitReplacement values for the NVietnamese in the campaign data.ini file to see if you can get ground units to be replenished sooner rather than later.

 

Let me know how it goes!

Edited October 16, 2008 by malibu43

[snapper 21 767]

One quick question, are these files to use with TETETs mod?

 

 

Cheers

Snapper 21

[+malibu43 142]

One quick question, are these files to use with TETETs mod?

 

 

Cheers

Snapper 21

 

The targets, types, and movement files are modifications of the ones TeTeT created. I think they should work with Steel Tiger. The modified Rolling Thunder Campaign is independent of TeTeT's mod, but needs my new terrain files to work.

[TeTeT 0]

Do you have a changelog for the things you added? If not, no worries, I can diff the files and see what changed from hand. Glad you're using the files I made almost a year ago - it's good to see that it's not lost.

[+malibu43 142]

Do you have a changelog for the things you added? If not, no worries, I can diff the files and see what changed from hand. Glad you're using the files I made almost a year ago - it's good to see that it's not lost.

 

No change log, but there isn't that much.

 

Yeah, you're updated targets and types is really what motivated and enabled me to do all this! Any tips or suggestions you have for enhancing the ground war portion of it are more than welcome!

 

*edit* - PS - Do you happen to know the answer to my question above regarding ground unit replacement?

 

Also, since there are mulitpble threads discussing the same thing, let's close this thread and continue the conversation here:

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...iew=getlastpost

Edited October 17, 2008 by malibu43

[+malibu43 142]

In case anyone is interested, I created a mostly stand alone Ground War Enhancement mod for stock/modded WOV. Available here

 

Some previews:

 

 

 

 

[+malibu43 142]

In case anyone is interested, I created a mostly stand alone Ground War Enhancement mod for stock/modded WOV. Available here

 

Some previews:

 

...

 

Updated today with improved Armed Recon routes. Convoys won't be right on top of the target areas anymore. You might have to actually "recon" a little to locate 'em.

[Panama Red 22]

[Ghost029 1]

Updated today with improved Armed Recon routes. Convoys won't be right on top of the target areas anymore. You might have to actually "recon" a little to locate 'em.

Outstanding

[+malibu43 142]

Thanks for being interested. I didn't know if anyone was using this or not.

 

One more suggestion: Switch the primary and secondary roles for the F-100D. This will get you more CAS, Armed-Recon, and strikes, and not so much MIG-CAP. The way the game engine works, it defaults to primary mission types for your aircraft when you aren't on an offensive (and doesn't necessarily use the mission chances defined in the campaign_data.ini). I found all the A/A combat in the F-100 a little anoying and not accurate. So I suggest changing the entry in the data.ini to look like this:

 

PrimaryRoles=STRIKE,CAS,SEAD,ARMED_RECON,ANTI_SHIP,RECON,FAC

SecondaryRoles=SWEEP,CAP,INTERCEPT,ESCORT

 

This whole thing was inspired by me wanting to fly A-1's in a campaign without being tasked to strike Hanoi all the time. So, I also suggest downloading either the A-1 from the d/l section or Razbam and adding them to the Rolling Thunder campaign with 100% CAS and Armed_Recon. Lots of fun.

 

I'm going to add this to the readme in the download as well.

[+malibu43 142]

Well, I found some very interesting and disappointing thing regarding my ground war mod.

 

It all started when I realized that because of the way the game works, you get MiG's sent to intercept missions no matter where they are on the map, even if it's in South Vietnam. So I started to tackle that problem. The best solution I found was to reduce the mission radius of the 7 MiG's in WOV to 200 (km). OK, no more migs in South Vietnam. That's it, right...?

 

Well, I was selecting units with mostly A/A mission types to test out the new "range" of the MiG's. What I found, was that units that are supposed to have all A/A, were now getting strikes almost all of the time. (F-8E's going downtown on a regular basis... I don't think so.)

 

Through a ton of experimentation, I determined that it has to do with the ground offensives in the ground war. The game engine will normally schedule CAP's, escorts, and sweeps in the air space over wherever major offensive's are taking place (this is how it works in WOE, and it works out just fine). After adding a ground war and ground offensives, game engine trys to schedule all your A/A missions near those offensives. This was fine until I reduced the radius of the MiG's. The game engine knew that no enemy aircraft could reach the offensives and so it wasn't scheduling any A/A missions. So, all the 80-90% A/A units end up getting tasked with strike, SEAD, and CAS near those offensives instead.

 

I think I've found a work around that removes the ground war, but keeps all the extra target areas in the South. I then added static ground units to the areas the ground battles used to take place, so you still get "CAS" in the form of "strikes" against infantry along the frontlines. I'm still working out the kinks, and it's not a perfect solution, since you don't have as close of control over mission types (ie - you can't have A-1 and F-100 units that do all CAS and armed recon; they have to do strikes now as well, sometimes up north). A/A missions may still be reduced a little; I'm not sure yet...

 

So there are three options:

 

1. Leave the ground war mod as is. You'll just have MiG's harrassing you all the way down to Saigon.
   
2. Leave the ground war mod as is and reduce the combat radius of the MiG's. You'll keep the ground war and won't be harrassed by MiG's, but you won't get many A/A missions in units that should have them.
   
3. My alternative method that removes the ground war but adds static "CAS" missions (and also uses reduced radius MiG's). No MiG's down south, lots of soft targets down south, and still plenty of A/A up North. Just no more real ground war with actual CAS missions.
   

Once I finish testing, I'll post the 3rd method as well along with my original mod, so that one can choose how they want it to work.

[TeTeT 0]

Interesting observation, malibu, which I share. In the development version of SteelTiger (slowly moving forward ;) I simply removed all air units and targets in RP5 and 6. However, the ground campaign and truck routes need some spicing up, otherwise it's a bit boring.

[+malibu43 142]

Well, I found some very interesting and disappointing thing regarding my ground war mod.

 

It all started when I realized that because of the way the game works, you get MiG's sent to intercept missions no matter where they are on the map, even if it's in South Vietnam. So I started to tackle that problem. The best solution I found was to reduce the mission radius of the 7 MiG's in WOV to 200 (km). OK, no more migs in South Vietnam. That's it, right...?

 

Well, I was selecting units with mostly A/A mission types to test out the new "range" of the MiG's. What I found, was that units that are supposed to have all A/A, were now getting strikes almost all of the time. (F-8E's going downtown on a regular basis... I don't think so.)

 

Through a ton of experimentation, I determined that it has to do with the ground offensives in the ground war. The game engine will normally schedule CAP's, escorts, and sweeps in the air space over wherever major offensive's are taking place (this is how it works in WOE, and it works out just fine). After adding a ground war and ground offensives, game engine trys to schedule all your A/A missions near those offensives. This was fine until I reduced the radius of the MiG's. The game engine knew that no enemy aircraft could reach the offensives and so it wasn't scheduling any A/A missions. So, all the 80-90% A/A units end up getting tasked with strike, SEAD, and CAS near those offensives instead.

 

I think I've found a work around that removes the ground war, but keeps all the extra target areas in the South. I then added static ground units to the areas the ground battles used to take place, so you still get "CAS" in the form of "strikes" against infantry along the frontlines. I'm still working out the kinks, and it's not a perfect solution, since you don't have as close of control over mission types (ie - you can't have A-1 and F-100 units that do all CAS and armed recon; they have to do strikes now as well, sometimes up north). A/A missions may still be reduced a little; I'm not sure yet...

 

So there are three options:

 

1. Leave the ground war mod as is. You'll just have MiG's harrassing you all the way down to Saigon.
   
2. Leave the ground war mod as is and reduce the combat radius of the MiG's. You'll keep the ground war and won't be harrassed by MiG's, but you won't get many A/A missions in units that should have them.
   
3. My alternative method that removes the ground war but adds static "CAS" missions (and also uses reduced radius MiG's). No MiG's down south, lots of soft targets down south, and still plenty of A/A up North. Just no more real ground war with actual CAS missions.
   

Once I finish testing, I'll post the 3rd method as well along with my original mod, so that one can choose how they want it to work.

 

v2.0 availabe with different install options to deal with these issues.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...p;showfile=7730

 

If anyone gives the limited ground war option a try, please let me know what you think about the frequency of strike missions in the south. Because of the way the campagin engine generates missions, it's really hard to check the frequency of mission types (takes a long time and seems to be very random). So I did the best I could, but feedback would be very welcome!

Edited December 22, 2008 by malibu43

[+Johan217 5]

v2.0 availabe with different install options to deal with these issues.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...p;showfile=7730

 

If anyone gives the limited ground war option a try, please let me know what you think about the frequency of strike missions in the south. Because of the way the campagin engine generates missions, it's really hard to check the frequency of mission types (takes a long time and seems to be very random). So I did the best I could, but feedback would be very welcome!

Since the FAC does not mark targets for you in campaign missions anyway, I don't think we'd miss much if CAS missions were removed. Using static targets gives you much more freedom to make the enemy appear where you want them. It should be possible to include a static smoke object (has anyone made one?) in the static target area, to simulate a FAC marking the target.

 

One thing I am noticing in the campaign is that when you fly for the USN, you'll hardly ever see USAF aircraft. But it's possible that this has always been the case in WOV.

 

In the campaigns I am flying, I usually get a nice mix of targets, both up North and in the South. Only when I was flying a F-105, I only got strike missions in the North (but this may be realistic). It probably also depends on the squadron you choose.

[+malibu43 142]

Since the FAC does not mark targets for you in campaign missions anyway, I don't think we'd miss much if CAS missions were removed. Using static targets gives you much more freedom to make the enemy appear where you want them. It should be possible to include a static smoke object (has anyone made one?) in the static target area, to simulate a FAC marking the target.

 

One thing I am noticing in the campaign is that when you fly for the USN, you'll hardly ever see USAF aircraft. But it's possible that this has always been the case in WOV.

 

In the campaigns I am flying, I usually get a nice mix of targets, both up North and in the South. Only when I was flying a F-105, I only got strike missions in the North (but this may be realistic). It probably also depends on the squadron you choose.

 

The one advantage to having actall CAS missions is that you have finer control over the mission types for squadrons. If you use only static targets, F-105's and A-7's have the same chances of getting strikes up north or CAS. I actually found out that having the ground war did not affect the air-to-air missions the way I thought, so I removed the static CAS target version from the download, and reverted back to the real ground war. It seems like it will work pretty well.

 

Glad you're enjoying it!

[+hgbn 91]

It must also be possible to create a new seperate campaign in the South and in Laos without VPAF aircraft opening up for Operation Farmgate and VNAF operations generally without challenging the historical aspect. It just need a lot of target areas and Firebases in the south only to be created.

 

Then we can fly the prop driven aircraft in CAS even the gunships. Truck hunting at the Ho Chin Mihn trail with AC-130's, Khe Sahn. Guess it would challenging enough without having an air to air campaign and strike missions going up north.

 

Well guess I must learn to place targets