Can the AI wingmen "bobbing" be reduced?

[MetalMania 0]

Hi all,

 

Revisiting the TW series after being away from it for a while and looking to tune things up a bit. Is there a tweak out there for reducing the amount of vertical "bobbing" that the AI wingmen do while flying in formation with you? I'd like to keep a little in there but the default amount seems just a little too much.

 

I did a forum search but it didn't didn't seem to return anything regarding that particular issue.

[Syrinx 13]

I'm not sure about changing the default but it looks pretty realistic to me.

 

I'm not a RL pilot you'd have to ask those that are (plenty of those guys here) but from viewing aerial footage I'd say it looks ok to me as it is.

 

Again, it's just down to personal preferences in the end.

[Viper6 3]

I believe that 'bobbing' is based on their skill which is represented by a number, I have noticed that the more skilled the ai pilot is the less bobbing and weaving they do but as Nicky said in real life no one flies straight and level it is a 3D world right? dynamics and all.

[MigBuster 2,875]

The planes bob? when?

[Lt. James Cater 62]

I've never minded it that much. Always reminds me of watching the 'Memphis Belle" documentary when i was a kid!

[Viper6 3]

The planes bob? when?

lol!!

[Roopod 0]

That is irritating. Like some bizarre PIO effect going on there. I saw a fix for it some time ago with changing an entry in an .ini but can't find it now. May have been after extracting a .cat file. Somebody knows. It isn't like riding turbulent air either since it the same old up and down and up and down motion repeating over and over and over again. I didn't find amusing either. Some models have it worse then others it seems.

[Fubar512 1,350]

That is irritating. Like some bizarre PIO effect going on there. I saw a fix for it some time ago with changing an entry in an .ini but can't find it now.

 

The fix was to increase the pitch damper, but depending on the model, that can introduce noticable adverse effects, namely reduced pitch response and limited AoA. There are several factors involved here. The model's cruising airspeed at a given altitude (TW sims use IAS instead of Mach Level for this value). The interrelationship between the tailplane and the wings, the XMac tables for the wings and tailplanes (if applicable). The model's fuel and ordnance loadout, its thrust position, and the patch level or sim version (ie, SF2).

[Stretch32 0]

The "bobbing" is only partially realistic. In parade formation (which is basically where wing flies in game),especially in straight and level flight, wing should be pretty stable. If wing was "opened up" on lead in cruise position he would have to manuever a little more aggressively to stay in position but lead would also be manuevering and not straight and level hence bobbing around a bit to maintain step down and spacing would be ok. The biggest problem is that wing bobs above lead and gets "stepped up" which is no good. If there was a way to lower wing's step down on lead and lessen some of the PIO it would actually be alot more realistic. In primary we weren't allowed to get stepped up on lead the way it works in game. Also, even though we were far from being any good at formation flying if you were bobbing around like that you'd probably catch a knee-board in the head from the IP in the back seat. Although it wasn't easy it wasn't so hard that you couldn't be fairly smooth after a few flights. I've heard jets are actually a little smoother and easier to fly in parade formation as well.

 

The "bobbing" should be toned down a bit if there is a mod for it. Also a position fix for wing to put him a little lower on lead's wing would be a good idea.

 

Stretch

[MetalMania 0]

The fix was to increase the pitch damper, but depending on the model, that can introduce noticable adverse effects, namely reduced pitch response and limited AoA. There are several factors involved here. The model's cruising airspeed at a given altitude (TW sims use IAS instead of Mach Level for this value). The interrelationship between the tailplane and the wings, the XMac tables for the wings and tailplanes (if applicable). The model's fuel and ordnance loadout, its thrust position, and the patch level or sim version (ie, SF2).

 

Sounds like the treatement ends up being worse than the original problem. Well, thanks for the info anyway.

[mppd 16]

Some of the bobbing can seem a bit overdone to me too, but for a real reality check, see some of the Youtube videos of demo teams in close formation when filmed from one of the players - I never seemed to see all that movement at the airshows! It was WAY more than I would have guessed.

 

Mike

[+Gunrunner 313]

Keep in mind that the bobbing you see from footage taken from another plane is amplified by the fact that both planes (the one filming, and the one filmed) are not perfectly stable.

 

For small up/down movements...

If plane A is stable relative to the ground, but plane B isn't, if you are inside plane B you'll feel stable and interpret movement as being due to A movement (if you go down 30cm, you won't feel it and think A went 30cm up).

But in most cases, both planes move up and down, when they are mostly synchronized the movement seems smaller than it is (both from inside the planes, and outside, as you use one plane as a reference for the other), but when their movements are diverging or worse, close to opposite, the effect seems amplified (If A goes up 30cm and you go up 29cm, you'll feel like you're both stable, but if A goes down 15cm while you go up 15cm, you'll feel like A went down 30cm).

 

Since in WoX, when in manual and stick left in neutral, the planes are often more stable than they should be (in part because it's easier to have no input, by design and also because wind and turbulences are not much of a factor), I wonder if the excessive bobbing is not partly by design.

 

Also, I don't see why airshow formations would be more stable than combat ones, especially when it means that planes would have to deal with each other's turbulences, the often closer proximity of the ground and lower mass (even though I doubt it factors much).

[FastCargo 412]

Having flown more formation than I care to remember, let me give you my thoughts.

 

1) Close formation is fairly useless in modern air combat...you MIGHT be able to try to simulate a single target paint by flying REALLY close together, but you negate damn near any advantage of having a wingman which is...

 

2) Mutual support. A rule of formation is that the closer to lead you are, the more of your attention is focused on him and maintaining position, vs watching his six, your six, checking your stuff, and bogie search.

 

3) The reason that close formation tends to look better the closer you are is because of trend/deviation information. The closer you are to your lead, the sooner you see deviations forming, therefore the smaller correction you have to make to stay in position.

 

Airshow formations require an damn near intrinsic trust in lead, because if something happens and he heads toward the ground, the wingies may not notice in time.

 

A prime example was the last year the T-Birds operated the T-38A. During the back half of a loop in line abreast close formation, lead's stab jammed, giving him insufficent authority to pull out of the loop. He hit the ground, and all 3 of his wingman hit the ground right beside him.

 

Close formations (the USAF calls fingertip, the USN calls parade) are usually to get the formation to the home field in an quick manner, help keep the formation close when driving through the weather, and finally (most importantly), to look good coming into the overhead.

 

Personally, my formations in the TW series are Fingertip, Echelon, Diamond ... after that, it's line abrest, starting at a mile between aircraft. If I'm on a CAP mission, with 16 aircraft, I've got a wall going that spans almost 20 miles, with radars pinging. My stealth tactics are different though...

 

Most times, the stock formations you see in the TW series are basically route spacing...which is sort of a 'relaxing cruise' type setup. The idea is that you keep in a general, safe location off of lead, but allows enough leeway to take care of your admin stuff within your aircraft. Which means you're going to bobble.

 

FC

[mppd 16]

Thanks FC for taking the time to delve into all that. Never having flown in any military type, it's always great to hear from someone that has. I can tell you that as an armchar simmer, I consider the Third Wire sime VERY imersive.

 

I still remember the feeling I got flying one of my first of John Shelton's YAP missions - taking off at night in a 497th TFS Nite Owl F-4D and trying to fly formation with another F-4D which was lead - then dropping flares over the trail in Laos and bombing a target (which I never saw). This was my first time flying wing on another fast mover, plus it being at night, all in all it was VERY interesting. I lost visual with him after the drop, couldn't work the radar to find him again, and returned to Ubon and landed alone...practically in a cold sweat! Now that's imersive.

 

Mike