Have to smile .....

[Fortiesboy 3]

Some guy flying the Russian release, about which he enthuses, says it pixellates a bit when near the ground.

Then I think of OFF - which doesn't!

 

Must say that some of the ROF videos are good - especially the guns in the fokker DVll in the dogfight video.

 

I wish i didn't have to be online at all times to fly it - then I'd buy it, no doubt.!

 

Would be nice to have two outstanding WWl flight sims.

[rabu 9]

Some guy flying the Russian release, about which he enthuses, says it pixellates a bit when near the ground.

Then I think of OFF - which doesn't!

 

Must say that some of the ROF videos are good - especially the guns in the fokker DVll in the dogfight video.

 

I wish i didn't have to be online at all times to fly it - then I'd buy it, no doubt.!

 

Would be nice to have two outstanding WWl flight sims.

 

Each has it's strengths and weaknesses.. hard to tell about ROF yet as it isn't even out yet. All we see are accounts from beta testers who can't really say much yet and a LOT of speculation. I hang around the ROF forum quite a bit making comments and usually getting blasted when ever I even casually mention OFF.

[JFM 18]

Yep, rabu, you certainly draw a lot of flak over there!

[buddye 1]

I will purchase ROF (just like I purchased BAH) to take a look at the AI and check out the FM and other features.

 

I would recomemnd the BAH developers to do the same. We all need first hand knowledge of fight sims.

[Bandy 3]

... Would be nice to have two outstanding WWl flight sims.

 

You know, since you started this thread re: another WWI flight sim, I don't feel too badly about mentioning this.

THERE IS ANOTHER EXCELLENT FLIGHT SIM CALLED FIRST EAGLES (FE) from ThirdWire released towards the end of 2006, and man it has come a long way with a strong 3rd party community of modders. (have a look under the WWI forum and downloads list here at Combat Ace).

 

Some of you guys act like OFF-BHAH is the only "outstanding" WWI flight sim available. While BHAH has some truly great aspects to it, FE also has excellent aspects, and excels on some points where BHAH just cannot. In fact, the perfect WWI sim would involve the best of each.

 

I play both ALL the time and browse/post on both forums; I'm just getting tired of the ignorance portrayed by some here, whether intentional or just not aware of the options.

 

Maybe this ain't a popular opinion or place say it, but there it is... START THE ARCHIE

Edited June 6, 2009 by B Bandy RFC

[OvS 8]

OK, I'm now monitoring this one...

 

Have at it guys, but keep it clean.

 

OvS

[godzilla1985 0]

I agree as it too hard to get an honest answer answer from the guys that have been in the "loop" with neoqb for awhile. I noticed some who patrolled that forum (and several others) for the last several months putting out fires have gone fairly quiet since they got thier copies. Yes Rabu they do pile on over at the other site if you ask a serious question concerning certain game requirements or dare to compare something you seen in an RoF video to BHaH, but then comparing it to any other WWI sim like RB3D or FC or Canvas Jacket (which isn't out either) is okay it seems. There is some odd things going on over there. It may all be innocent or unintentional but on the surface it looks questionable to say the least. While I agree that more WWI sims the better it should be for all WWI aviation sim enthusiast, heck I owned RB3D and FCG and flew them both regularly. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out that way for BHaH and RoF and an eventual showdown is coming between these two. My monies on BHaH as the sim that gives you the most bang for the buck. RoF does hold a few advantages over BHaH, but only because of it's newer game engine, I don't think it's going to be enough once all the oooohhhh and ahhhhhs are over with and it boils down to which game is the real deal and offers the TOTAL WWI simming experiance. And this is coming from a guy who wasn't going to buy BHaH until after I got RoF....... me

 

Your right B Brandy FE is an excellent sim, and it's also another sim you don't dare mention at another site in the RoF forum in making comparisons

Edited June 6, 2009 by godzilla1985

[Fortiesboy 3]

I play both ALL the time and browse/post on both forums; I'm just getting tired of the ignorance portrayed by some here, whether intentional or just not aware of the options.

 

Maybe this ain't a popular opinion or place say it, but there it is... START THE ARCHIE

 

B Bandy S! No problem mate, most here love WW1 sims and will fly them , if they suit. And most of us who are well into OFF get as frustrated (as you are here ) at the guys who say they have tried OFF but its CFS3 really etc etc. - because we know that it's a fair bet that they haven't got it installed and used to it's best advantage.

 

It could be that many view F.E. as I do. ( it seems it might be good, but can i get it good enough?)

 

E.g.

I have F.E and i have tried it on two occasions. OOTB, it is nowhere near enough quality.

So, I think, the mods might have made it different enough for me to like it.

But getting it to where I imagine you have got your install seems to me to be not so straightforward.

First there is the gamble i have to take by buying another add on. ( am i throwing good money after bad ) and ( can i only get it by online purchase, - I don't use my card online )

 

Then, it seems, there are many downloads and mods to be added, requiring some deft computer knowledge?

 

The patches for OFF have all been straightforward one click installs. And that is a very BIG

consideration for most folks ( Thanks Winder )

 

If Thirdwire want lots more to fly F.E how about presenting a scenario where, having bought the original disc, issuing a single one- click download and install, containing all the mods bringing it to the standard you enjoy?

 

I'd no doubt give it a go then- as I think would many others.

 

(I'm going to have another little crafty look now, as a result of your post )

 

cheers

[Hasse Wind 46]

I've always thought it's ridiculous when people start fighting on forums about which sim is the best ever released. Often it gets to the point where you can't even mention certain names on certain forums if you want to avoid being the target of so much flak that it makes the bomber raids over Germany in WW2 seem like walks (or rathers flights!) in the park.

 

There are so few good sims available that I want to try them all and compare them with each other to see which one does what well and what could be improved. So far OFF has easily been the best WW1 sim I've ever tried, but that doesn't mean there could never be any other good sims. :yes:

[OvS 8]

I've always thought it's ridiculous when people start fighting on forums about which sim is the best ever released. Often it gets to the point where you can't even mention certain names on certain forums if you want to avoid being the target of so much flak that it makes the bomber raids over Germany in WW2 seem like walks (or rathers flights!) in the park.

 

There are so few good sims available that I want to try them all and compare them with each other to see which one does what well and what could be improved. So far OFF has easily been the best WW1 sim I've ever tried, but that doesn't mean there could never be any other good sims. :yes:

 

One main point that many WWI Sim developers have failed to realize is that a huge database of information to which very randomly generated flights needs to be the focal point of any attempt at a WWI sim. It's not about just jumping into a Dr.1 and flying against the enemy. Or flying one type of plane against another. It's about matching the right planes against each other, it's about the personalities, the places, the maps, the locations of dromes, the timelines, the movements.... on and on and on.

 

All this wrapped into a very dynamic campaign engine is what makes a WWI sim what it is. Giving someone a Mission Generator/builder is not the same thing. Scripted mission are even worse! The feeling of WWI has to be totally in what is unexpected, or what might happen.. or nothing happens at all.

 

Keep in mind that other than Winder, Polovski and Rex Hannover, the rest of us had NO CLUE what BHaH was going to fly like, or play like until it was given to us in beta. So the majority of us developers are no more knowledgable about the way OFF plays than any of you. Sure we were heavily involved, but not in the sense that we knew what the final product was going to FEEL like. While making skins, you have no idea what a Jasta full of them, with complementing aces is going to look like until it's infront of you.

 

So taking that into account, and being a developer of RB3D mods, I can speak for myself with very good knowledge of what to expect from a WWI Sim. Am I biased, sure... because I know it's more than just eye-candy that makes the game special. It has to have longevity, and that's what the Dynamic Campagin does. It pulls you into the game and makes you into a cog in the machine of WWI. No sim to date aside from OFF and RB3D has done that.

 

It is frustrating, not as a developer of this game, but a fan of WWI Sims, seeing all the attention going in one direction, based PURELY on pretty pictures, and nice videos. But what about the core of the game? What about the feeling and the depth? How many years does it cover, what are the mission possiblities, what about flying a career?

 

Those are questions we have answered very well with our product. I have yet to see any come from anything else. It's seriously not fair to see so much attention given to something that there is no way to be sure of until it is in your hands. But yet, BHaH is out there...

 

So who knows... a showdown? I doubt it... it's already been decided. But for us, and I mean as players, depending on the player you are, you can make your choice. As an avid WWI Simmer, I made mine. I'm going to pass on RoF, based soley on lack of content (sorry I need more than a Spad XIII and Fokker D.VII) and the fact that I have to be Online to play it. No thanks.

 

OvS

[Jammer28 0]

I love the eye candy and physics in ROF. But I do not fly multiplayer so I have little interest in it. I have read where there is a single player element but its scope must be limited giving the fact that there are just a few planes and takes place in 1917-18.Like many others I see nothing wrong with flying other WWI sims if you enjoy them.

It seems it boils down to a turf war. Is it against etiquette to mention one sim on another ones forum? I suppose it depends on the context.

This is the first forum that I have ever joined so all the flame wars, haters and whatnot is new to me. I glad to see that there is none of that nonsense over here.

[Fortiesboy 3]

Although I started this thread, I didn't want nor intend it to become a "My sim is better than your sim"

thing.

And ( so far) it hasn't.Which is good.

 

Referring to what OVS has said, he will have a hard time loving OFF more than me , but a lot of what makes a WW1 sim good for him, makes it lukewarm for me.

Personally, I am not too bothered about the accuracy, timelines, squadrons, campaigns, statistics etc etc of which he speaks. That it is there and has meant a lot of work for some guys (who love that sort of thing - and I know a lot do ) is very much appreciated: but I like dogfights in scenarios ( scenery, AI, FMs, Dms, weather, etc )

where I can escape into those "dangerous" moments, and almost feel as if I'm in danger myself.

(Of course, I'm not in the least danger, and I'm not belittling what the guys who did it for real went through, but I'm just trying to describe my preferred type of immersion ).

That is why my flying is mostly in QC. And if I trusted the internet more, I suppose I would like ROF, which is plainly an online sim .

But, like OVS, having to be hooked up to somewhere servers for all the time i wish to play a sim, is not for me.

ROF would be ideal for me if i could play against AI offline, and against one or two mates ( IP to IP etc) online. Like EAW did, -and like I'm going to try with OFF!

 

Different sims offer different priorities for folks, better or worse than others.. It all boils down to that. Sometimes you can like something/somewhere etc too much in that other things and places can become easily attacked. I'm sure this forum strives to be more objective than that.

I sum it up in my signature

 

Enjoy your sim!

 

FB

[Hasse Wind 46]

OvS,

 

I understand how you feel. People should be more open-minded and give OFF a chance. But most sim players have had so bad experience with CFS3 that I can also understand them for being suspicious about anything even remotely connected to that piece of... mostly unsuccessful software. It IS unfair to judge games based solely on eye candy, but unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world these days.

 

I was somewhat suspicious myself when I first found out about OFF (thanks to CFS3), but I took the risk and it turned out to be one of the best choices I've ever made when buying something for my computer. I prefer single player sims over multiplayer, because I don't usually have time for long online sessions, and OFF is now the perfect choice for me. RoF may well alienate me completely with their choice of DRM, because that's what the always online requirement basically is.

[OvS 8]

OvS,

 

I understand how you feel. People should be more open-minded and give OFF a chance. But most sim players have had so bad experience with CFS3 that I can also understand them for being suspicious about anything even remotely connected to that piece of... mostly unsuccessful software. It IS unfair to judge games based solely on eye candy, but unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world these days.

 

I was somewhat suspicious myself when I first found out about OFF (thanks to CFS3), but I took the risk and it turned out to be one of the best choices I've ever made when buying something for my computer. I prefer single player sims over multiplayer, because I don't usually have time for long online sessions, and OFF is now the perfect choice for me. RoF may well alienate me completely with their choice of DRM, because that's what the always online requirement basically is.

 

 

Really, the point I am trying to make is that it's not at all easy to make a good WWI flight sim, be it with a base game as a mod, or a whole new game. So as much as OFF might satify what one wants, it might not satify what another does. Same for RoF. If there is a balance between them, and there should be, there is will be plenty of room for both. It's like the BIA vs the Call of Duty games. They are both fantastic, but what one lacks in tactics, the other makes in action and vice versa, but they are both worldly for that matter and actually compliment each other.

 

I hope the same can be said for our two games. As for the 3rd member of the clan... First Eagles, it was unfortunately an uphill battle from the start. It looked like a great effort, but lacked depth. I remember looking at screen-shots of the models and saying... 'wow, these look awesome!!', but then I saw the terrian and scenery and felt it went downhill from there. I hope those guys hang in there as well, it would be great to have a 3rd choice on the HD. The more the merrier. WWI sims are few and far between, but of recent, we have some good choices.

 

OvS

[rabu 9]

I think OVS summed up a lot of my feelings quite well, though I am definitely going to try out ROF and give it a chance, I still will be solidly behind OFF because I too feel it has definite advantages over ROF. OFF has the most staggering historical content of any WWI flight sim I have seen and I have only touched on a small part of it. Even the weather is historically accurate, not to mention the thousands of plane skins, the huge theater of operation, which we have barely touched on, the historical battles going on all around, etc. The graphics and FM may not be as awesome as ROF, but they are still fantastic and along with the ambiance of sounds and lighting and other visuals they pull you into the sim like none before. Like I said before though, people will probably play each for different reasons while some will play both for different reasons, as they both appear to have their strengths and weaknesses. I am put off by ROF's limited content and somewhat by the online requirement, also the area is only a few hundred miles across, very limited for anything but dog fights and online MP. Then again, they are promising lots of updates and add-ons. If they can supply a lot of free fixes and updates along with reasonably priced add on aircraft, etc. they will keep me interested... we'll see.

 

R Bandy: I regret to say that I haven't bought First Eagles. I too was put off by it's limited content when it came out and the lack of wow factor of what I had seen didn't push me into buying it where as the amazing videos of ROF have swayed me to purchase it., even though it too has limited content. I don't think anyone here has really been unfair in their comments about FE though or tried to block it's discussion. What exactly is it that you said are advantages it has over OFF?.. you didn't actually say and I think we really would be interested in hearing about it from some one familiar with it. The negative things I heard in the past were the lack of a dynamic varied campaign, the weak fm; and the visuals I saw, like the terrain just didn't look that great, though the planes looked good. Have these been improved?

 

I think one mistake we made was deleting an announcement post here of ROF that was just around the same time as OFF BHH had come out. It was understandable based on all the unwarranted put downs and misinformation being spread on other forums like ROF and the sub sim forum, but we probably shouldn't have done it because now that is brought up again and again against us and how we aren't open to any other SIM except OFF.. that just isn't true though. Like OVS, all of us, including WM have said we are very interested and look forward to flying any new WWI flight SIM that comes out and wish them all the best of luck. There's room for all. Again, I think each is going to have different advantages and disadvantages.

 

Right now there is a lot of activity and excitement in anticipation of the release of ROF, but, you know, I've got a feeling that after awhile of playing it a lot of players are going to end up getting OFF too because of what they will be missing in ROF that OFF already has.. again, we'll see.

Edited June 7, 2009 by rabu

[rabu 9]

OvS,

 

I understand how you feel. People should be more open-minded and give OFF a chance. But most sim players have had so bad experience with CFS3 that I can also understand them for being suspicious about anything even remotely connected to that piece of... mostly unsuccessful software. It IS unfair to judge games based solely on eye candy, but unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world these days.

 

I was somewhat suspicious myself when I first found out about OFF (thanks to CFS3), but I took the risk and it turned out to be one of the best choices I've ever made when buying something for my computer. I prefer single player sims over multiplayer, because I don't usually have time for long online sessions, and OFF is now the perfect choice for me. RoF may well alienate me completely with their choice of DRM, because that's what the always online requirement basically is.

 

 

HW:

I run into that all the time and the hard part is countering the negative comments by quite a few who have this negative obsession with CFS3 and seem to want to pass it on to OFF, even though many of them have never even tried OFF, especially BHH, which is such an improvement over the earlier OFF versions.

 

There is also this strange IL2 against CFS group dogma that I still can't figure out. Rise Of Flight/Knights of the Sky started out several years ago with the announcement of using the IL2 engine and it seems to stick in their mind that ROF must be "one of them," on their side, or what ever. Even though ROF, developed their own game engine early on and has absolutely nothing to do with IL2 except its large following.

 

I've had a run in with a few on this forum and especially on other forums like ROF when someone starts making authoritive comments about OFF that are flat out lies or misleading.. they often express their "opinions" based on things they have heard from others, or their earlier impressions of CFS3, but the problem is the way they state their "opinions" usually as if they are based on fact. There is a huge difference between subjective opinions, and actual reporting based on fact. If one just doesn't like OFF for some reason, fine, but to start making comments about how OFF crashes all the time and has horrible fps or requires expensive computer updates, how the video tears, or that the fm just isn't accurate, or the graphics are 10 years old and it's understandable because it's, after all, just CFS3 in sheeps clothing... it's all very misleading and basically, untrue. I often jump in and confront and then I get blasted for "advertising" OFF, since, I am, after all, a OFF "developer" and must be totally biased, have an "agenda," etc., etc... it gets very frustrating sometimes.

[godzilla1985 0]

All good points but I still think a showdown is on the horizon between BHaH and RoF which will either draw the people still on the fence to BHaH or RoF and even some guys who might find out RoF isn't all that it was promised to be. The only guys solidly in the RoF camp and BHaH will never attract are the MP only guys, for them it's RoF or nothing. Right now it's hard to provide any convincing arguement to get people to try BHaH, but that will probably change as soon as RoF is released or shortly afterward. BHaH is a known comodity now, RoF is still just mostly user game videos and comments from guys who are too biased to be completely objective. I too was caught up and seduced by the eye candy and the FM/DM's of RoF and that was the reason I was going with RoF over BHaH as my first new WWI sim purchase (if I bought BHaH at all). I had FE so I figured why buy BHaH right now. Even with all those beautiful videos provided by the BHaH team I still wasn't convinced BHaH was that much better then FE modded up, plus the CFS3 game engine caused me some major concern also. I had P2 and it worked less than stellar for me. What was the major turning point for my decision to purchase BHaH was when the price dropped to $39.99, now after having the game for several months I don't know what I was thinking for not getting BHaH sooner. Soon RoF will be released and any problems it might have will be exposed and comparisons between all three games can have legitimacy in being discussed openly. RoF is about to leave the shelter of the harbor and face the open sea much as BHaH has done several months before. BHaH has weathered the storms and is still here and seems to be doing well now will RoF fair the same? If there is a big jump in inquires about BHaH at the end of the month or the next, that will be a pretty good rule of thumb of what might be going on.

[rabu 9]

I agree, GZ:

What's sort of amusing is the almost blind, fanatical anticipation of ROF though by a constantly present group on the ROF forum.. sort of like the second coming or something. I think some are going to be somewhat disappointed after they have tried it awhile and realize that it, like any other SIM is not perfect, and far from it. I'm definetly looking forward to flying it though, it has some amazing effects with the lighting and details.

[buddye 1]

If I have learned anything over the years, it is that 'EVERYONE" wants/insist/demands something different in a fight sim. Everyone's flight sim feature priority list is different. Also each and every fight sim has its strengths and weaknesses. I consider this data a fact so everyone's comments are based/reflected from their priorities and views of what is important to them.

 

When I see a well received feature of another flight sim that I am testing (and I own and test all the prop full function flight sim's), I start thinking about how to implement it in BOBII but I know not everyone will want the new feature. An example is historicly accurate weather (BOBII's campaign simulates the weather each hour of each day of the BOB based on weather records). Some players do not want to fly in rain and bad weather as they have other priorities (yes, it is a disappointment but a fact) so we offer options with a default which results in more development cost and effort.

 

I am also interested to see if ROF marketing strategy (an ex-exec software manager's fault of mine) will work (narrow base with later add on's, required internet connection, and a strong focus on MP (will the AI be effective?) and not single player).

 

With our base of full function flight sim's being so very small, we developers and players must learn, experiment, and test each and every one to learn their strengths and weaknesses with respect to what we want and value in our flight sim's.

[chrispdm1 1]

I may buy ROF if I happen to see it... I was pretty impressed by the videos and scren shots I started seeing several months ago but then its fallen apart for me...

 

1. Being logged into the internet is a big no-no for me... just a pain in the neck...

 

2. THis things bills itself as what? "Rise of flight" so how come its rising in 1917.... to have that for a name its gotta go right back to the original duels... voisons, bristols, aviatiks.... oh wait it only comes with what? 4 planes? Or does it even come with that...

 

3. When I want info on it, how come their game website is in russian and hard to find anything in english. And what is in English is crappily translated... They have to realize that North America is a bigger market than Russia whether its being developed there or not. Look at games like Blitzkrieg for that.

 

4. What info. is out there for what its singleplayer playing is like, etc... pretty much nothing.

 

THis game is going to have to have a really awesome price for me to look at it.

[Cameljockey 3]

It's supposed to be released in North American tomorrow. If they reconsider the online requirement I may purchase it even though I'm not an online flier. Until that time, the answer is no.

 

CJ

[godzilla1985 0]

It's supposed to be released in North American tomorrow. If they reconsider the online requirement I may purchase it even though I'm not an online flier. Until that time, the answer is no.

 

CJ

Didn't the NA release get pushed back? Thought I read somewhere its mid month now.

[Cameljockey 3]

I couldn't say. I guess that shows how concerned I am about it's release. :whistling:

[Thumper41 0]

Not much has been said about First Eagles, so I'll put in a little bit of what I know. Third Wire produces FE, along with a series of jet sims that started with Strike Fighters Project 1 and has grown to include titles covering Israel, Viet Nam, Modern Europe, etc. Third Wire is a small company with a few employees and a limited budget, so big budget, eye-popping sims are pretty much out of the question for them. They cater to more casual simmers, vs. those in the Falcon 4 group who are looking for intricate detail with working switches and buttons to the nth degree. This doesn't mean the Third Wire sims are arcadish -- far from it. They are simply targeting a particular niche market, and seem to be doing well there. Their sims are open architecture, so basically just about any aspect can be modified. The sims are download only, and they cost $19.99. The lead programmer, TK, is currently releasing new versions of all the titles which are designed to work with Vista, and which have a new file architecture that makes them easier to modify. Mods are really the heart of the Third Wire Sims, in my opinion. Each sim is released with a basic set of player-flyable and AI-only aircraft, terrains, sounds, weapons, campaigns, etc. This is where the modder community comes into play. New planes are constantly being released, AI aircraft are easily made to player-flyable, FMs and effects can be changed to suit your tastes, and so on. It is amazing what the community has done with these sims, and by the way most of them can be merged to created mega-simulations! Now if you are not into tinkering with your sim then these may not be for you. While they fly fine "out of the box" (or "out of the download" I guess I should say), the modifications are what really make them stand out. Another drawback for some (a plus for others) is the lack of multiplayer functionality. It can be done, but not easily -- these sims are really meant the be played offline.

 

So, that's my 2 cents. I have played OFF and BHaH and generally prefer them over FE, simply due to all the extra things that Winder, Pol, and crew have done with this sim. However, I think FE has great potential, since it is based on a more current simulation engine that CFS3 and therefore may not have the limitations inherent therein. Someday maybe a group of talented, dedicated modders like Winder and Pol will take on FE and build a total simulation experience to rival BHaH. No matter what happens, it is good to see that we do have choices in the small, but historically rich field of simulation known as the Great War.

[Hellshade 110]

I don't get the whole "It can only be one or the other" mentality that so many gamers seem to have. Back in my MMO days, anyone who played World of Warcraft talked crap about the EQ2 players and EQ2ers always fired back about "WoW" shortcomings. I played them both. EQ2 was very limited when it first came out but made HUGE strides in being more fun for the casual gamer over the last 2 years. Both games had (and still have I'm sure) a ton of fun to offer, each with it's strengths and weaknesses. If someone likes one game better than the other, then great. Go play it. But don't waste everyones time trash talking the other. It's fine to put out honest, respectful opinions about why you find one game more satisfying or fun than another, but flame talk about other games (or worse, the people who play them) is childish. As if people who don't enjoy playing the same game I play are somehow "less cool". Please. In fact I think people who flame other gamers and games do a huge disservice to the community of the game they play because it makes them look immature, intolerant and small minded.

 

As for RoF, I plan to buy it. It has an on-line multiplayer component that is more intuitive to use than BHaH does at this time. BHaH is the best WWI flight sim single player campaign game I have ever played. The AI is magnificient, the campaign huge, the number of planes is fantastic and the graphics are exceptionally good. No disrespect to First Eagles, I simply have never played it. On the other hand, the RoF videos look like some fun multiplayer combat. The graphics and damage modeling appear to be outstanding. If it's as fun as it looks, I plan to have a blast against on-line opponents. But when I want to feel like I'm really in the war with a huge variety of different planes in the sky, I'll fire up BHaH in a heartbeat. I love BHaH. I'll buy every expansion they make for it as long as the quality remains what it is today. And I'm sure it will. I just don't see how or why enjoying BHaH (or RoF or First Eagles) should prevent me from trying and enjoying other games.

 

/salute

Hellshade