Severe Sf.p1 Sp2 Fm Issues

[Firehawk 0]

Now that the 2nd patch is out I've noticed quite a lot of FM bugs which need immediate attention.

 

1) Rollrates

Take any of the ingame jets up for a ride and test it yourself. At speed of 250-300 knots rollrates are relatively slow and not that far off of reality. However if you accelerate to 500knots and above all jets roll like crazy. No real-life jet can roll that fast - Take an F4/F100/A4/MiG21/MiG17/MiG19 up for a ride and roll them at 500 knots, then come back here and tell me that this is authentic... :(

The situation in SP2 is that the rollrates constantly increase with speed. In real life this is only partly the case. Starting at slow speeds (150knots; stall speed) roll rate would steadily increase till the optimum is reached. If the speed is now further increased the roll-rate will drop again... however in SP2 this is not the case.

the more speed you have the faster you roll - which is false

 

2)Control Response

Pitch:All of the jets are far too sensitive in terms of control response. At relatively slow speeds controls should be quite fluid; however at speeds near Mach1 the control responses should be significantly reduced.

In SP2 you can pitch up and down very rough at any speed. It seems that the same applies to the pitch as to the roll-rates: The faster you become the more sensitive the controls are... again this is not right! It should be the same way as with the roll-rate.

 

Yaw: As far as I've noticed Yaw seems to be modelled quite authentic (with the stock jets). Not too sensitive and not too sluggish... Nothing to rant about here

If you take one of the "non-official" jets like the B57 Canberra you can fly UFO-style maneuvers. Just roll 45° to any side and at the same time use the rudders in this same direction. You'll be able to "hover" over a very small piece of terrain!

 

PS: I'm very pleased with the patch (especially with the changes in the campaign system) but I think these things need some serious attention!!

Pls post your comments on this topic

Edited January 6, 2004 by Firehawk

[+Armourdave 0]

The A-4 could roll at 720 degrees a second. :)

 

Cheers

[Cretin 0]

I have to agree with you, Firehawk, especially regarding some of the roll rates. Good thing the sim doesn't model broken necks! :D

 

I have to say, however, that overall the patch is quite impressive. It looks great and runs like a screaming banshee on my 9800 128 mb with everything maxed at 1280 x 960. As for the breakfast menu, might I suggest the Taiwan terrain.

[RareBear 0]

Firehawk,

 

I think you'd better listen to Armourdave on this one. I don't know where you get your info about what the rollrates on fighters should be but they're not accurate! The joke used to be "Could you slap the stick full throw to one side and back to neutral without making one full roll?"

 

Answer: No!

 

Next Question: Did you go around with the airplane or did it roll without you and you just wound up in the seat where you started?

 

I don't know the answer to that one!

 

Someone else commented that the F-100 yaws way too much at slow speed.

 

Guess What! The F-100 did yaw way too much at slow speed and/or high G-loads - That's why you turned/rolled with rudder instead of aileron under those circumstances.

 

That's also where the Sabre Dance came from.

[Cretin 0]

This is getting interesting! :D

 

I have to admit that my perceptions are NOT based on actual performance data. The roll rates "seem" too fast compared with my previous flight sim experiences. If roll rates in other sims were inaccurate, too slow, then my yardstick is inaccurate.

 

Hey, who can bitch about better performance if it is accurate? That is the best case scenario! Any more roll rate stats at your fingertips? Edicate me, if you feel so inclined.

[RareBear 0]

I think a lot of folks base their comparisons/expectations on other sims. I never cease to be amazed how some of these sims, SFP1 in particular, replicate the real airplane. I also flew the F-89 way back when and MontyCZ's flight model is almost perfect. Unlike later fighters, in the 89 you could slap the stick to one side and back and the airplane never knew that you had done anything!

[Cretin 0]

No kidding! What other aircraft have you flown?

[RareBear 0]

I was current at one time or another in the T-37, T-33, F-102, F-89J & F-84F.

 

I liked the "Deuce" best of any by far!

 

New fighters have a modulated/staged burner light that is a lot smoother than the old days. In the Deuce (F-100 or any J-57 powered a/c) the burner was either on or off. When you selected burner the eyelids opened all the way and full a/b fuel flow started. Since it took a second or so for the burner to light you lost about half your thrust (because the eyelids were wide open but burner hadn't lit yet). Then, when the burner finally did lite it was like getting rear-ended by a freight train!

 

Ah, it's fun to remember!

[Cretin 0]

How kewl! Thanks! I love hearing about how it REALLY was. :D

 

I've met very few pilots who have actually flown these aircraft. I'm old enough to remember quite well when these babies were the latest and greatest. At the time they were to me as exotic as space ships. I still love their looks.

 

I have to say, I think it took some real cajones to climb into the cockpit of many of those aircraft. They had their idiosyncracies and there were lots of ways to get into trouble fast.

 

What great memories to have. That's what I call a REAL treasure. Hats off to you!

[+Fates 63]

The faster you become the more sensitive the controls are... again this is not right!

Last I heard, flight controls become more sluggish as you approach stall....ands more sensitive with speed. Isn't this because of natural forces being applied to the control surface?

 

Delta Force=velocity of the air x amount of surface area

 

of course, you could throw air density in there as well....

 

Is that not a correct statement?

 

<C>

Fates

[RareBear 0]

Fates,

 

I think what you are saying is correct - A given size control surface exerts more authority with a higher volume of air flowing over it. I'm sure all modern fighters have fully boosted flight controls and therefore an artificial feel system to simulate the control forces that are missing. Without the artificial feel system the pilot would over-control/overstress the airframe because the control forces would be so light regardless of the speed.

[+Fates 63]

In a fly by cable control surface...the pilot is not strong enought to move the control surface at high air speeds....thus he needs assistance (hydro-electric servos for example.) Since the force to actuate the servo is far less then that needed to move the control...artificial feel is applied.

 

In a fly by wire situation, simulated feedback is applied to the pilots controls to attain the same thing.

 

Like you said though...you gotta remember that a small movement of the surface at a higher airspeed will yield a greater result in deflection of the airframe.

 

<C>

Fates

[Firehawk 0]

"Last I heard, flight controls become more sluggish as you approach stall....ands more sensitive with speed"

 

I think that this would applies both to extremly high and slow speeds...

At slow speeds the aircraft cannot respond quickly because of the lack of airflow

At high speeds however the drag and inertia would also make the plane sluggish

[vliegern 0]

Now that the 2nd patch is out I've noticed quite a lot of FM bugs which need immediate attention.

 

1) Rollrates

Take any of the ingame jets up for a ride and test it yourself. At speed of 250-300 knots rollrates are relatively slow and not that far off of reality. However if you accelerate to 500knots and above all jets roll like crazy. No real-life jet can roll that fast - Take an F4/F100/A4/MiG21/MiG17/MiG19 up for a ride and roll them at 500 knots, then come back here and tell me that this is authentic...  :(

The situation in SP2 is that the rollrates constantly increase with speed. In real life this is only partly the case. Starting at slow speeds (150knots; stall speed) roll rate would steadily increase till the optimum is reached. If the speed is now further increased the roll-rate will drop again... however in SP2 this is not the case.

the more speed you have the faster you roll - which is false

Well , I have noticed something about the roll rates: the roll inertia is not enough... LMAO :D

 

But the funny thing is that Im not kidding. I agree with Fates that the faster you go, the faster you roll... but there should be more inertia too, which is not the case (at least that is my perception); if you roll at high speeds and move the stick back to neutral the plane stops rolling almost immediatly... I think the rollrates of the first release (not patched) were more accurate... but honestly who knows???

 

BTW: Have you flown the beta of the F-5E ??... in SP2 it makes about ten full rolls per second !!! :D

 

Besides that I think SP2 is great.

[BUFF 8]

BTW: Have you flown the beta of the F-5E ??... in SP2 it makes about ten full rolls per second !!! :D

So does the Harrier

[Cretin 0]

Another fine mess you've gotten us into, Firehawk! :D

[Firehawk 0]

A mess!? why?

[Cretin 0]

Just kidding, Bro. You started this thread and we've really gotten on a roll with it. That's good!

 

I was referring to Laurel and Hardy. Probably a reference that goes too far back for you. Only old farts like me would remember it.

 

You are classified 1-A. "Prasie the Lord and pass the ammunition!" :D