2 theories and question for the devs

[Creaghorn 10]

due to supervision of AI you very rarely have a sortie without a fight. and fights are definitely too often at the moment (phase 3). at least when enemy scouts are at the same area. my experience is that although there are maybe very few squadrons of friend and foe, almost on every sortie you run into the same guys again. no matter if you have to patrol 100 miles north, or south. lot of times the enemie scout squadron, although maybe the only at the frontarea in that time-period, seems to know where you are going to have patrol this afternoon.

so my conclusion is, although they have their own real tasks, when flight density is set to low, there are maybe only 20 aircraft spawned in the theater, but mostly "coincidentally" scouts and in your flight path, set by the manager. is my conclusion right, devs?

 

right now in phase 3 i try everything possible to reduce enemy contact to be realistic, as long the things are not sorted out (vision, AI smartness). you didn't fight on every sortie. even in very busy times. it's not easy to do that.

 

theorie 1:

set flight density to low, so only few aicraft are spawned, therefore less chance to meet them. sounds plausible, but if my conclusion from above is right, it wouldn't make much sense to have it at "low", because you will meet them anyway, and cince there is only a few number spawned, the chance to run into the same scout-squadron over and over again is bigger.

 

theorie 2:

set it to high. more aircraft mean more enemy two seaters and scouts on both sides. the will fight among themselves, probable enemy scouts might be intercepted earlier by another friendly squadron somewhere, before you reach the point of contact. more spawned aircraft might mean more two seaters. maybe they might attract the attention of enemy scouts and so on...

 

what do you think would be better to reduce enemy contact?

in any case i'll try density at high, just to prove if my theory is right.

[+Polovski 460]

Clouds on 5 helps as AI cannot see through clouds on 5.

 

Turn off visual aids, don't use warp. I often fly and see enemies pass by but if I warp they always seem to attack if you let warp break you out.

If you turn up the density you will simply meet more flights. maybe some will engage but there will be a lot more around so you will meet more QED.

There usually be many more than 20 craft it will vary on year place squads blah.

 

Missions are set in your area. A squad may have 4 or 5 missions spread out across your zone.

 

Note there are limits on the number of different skins in the air for 1 model so for example

[Creaghorn 10]

Clouds on 5 helps as AI cannot see through clouds on 5.

 

Turn off visual aids, don't use warp. I often fly and see enemies pass by but if I warp they always seem to attack if you let warp break you out.

If you turn up the density you will simply meet more flights. maybe some will engage but there will be a lot more around so you will meet more QED.

There usually be many more than 20 craft it will vary on year place squads blah.

 

Missions are set in your area. A squad may have 4 or 5 missions spread out across your zone.

 

Note there are limits on the number of different skins in the air for 1 model so for example

 

 

thank you for answering, sir.

 

what means QED? so it should be better with high dens?

what do you mean with limits on the number of different skins?

[Dej 17]

QED = quod erat demonstrandum, Latin, lit. which was to be demonstrated. Used these days to imply 'as is evident' or 'as may be deduced'.

 

Pol's saying that if you set density to High there will be more machines in the air so you will meet more, not fewer. i.e. the number of contacts will increase.

 

I imagine that the number of different skins limit is a game engine one and constrains the likelihood of a squadron flying if the number of skin slots for their aircraft is already filled, e.g. if the Alb. DIII model can have 6 different skins in the air at once then a seventh squadron flying DIIIs won't appear because there is no available skin slot.

 

No idea how the game engine prioritises which squadrons get the skin slots though.

[+Polovski 460]

QED means "that to be proven has been" in effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

 

 

No Low density will be better.. hence my comments

 

CFS3 can only show 1 skin per model in the air. So to have 5 different skins you need 5 models. So for each craft we have many copies if you look in your aircraft folder.

 

So we can only have say 5 aces and 5 squads of 1 type in the air. But we do have 7 types of Albs, and many other aircraft so usually not a problem.

 

So we cannot have say 6 squads of a DIII in the air, but usually it's fine as we can have 5 plus 5 DIIIe, plus 5 DII 5 DIII OAW etc

 

Edit; As Dej says as you see it is quite a complex set of problems the OFF manager deals with - this is just one.

[Macklroy 2]

Along these same lines. Are you just as likely to run into an enemy flight if you follow the waypoints on your mission, as you are if you fly your own route that is not in the same flight path. It has been my experience (so far) that the enemy never shows up unless you are inside your intended mission path. Sometimes I just like to fill the tanks and go exploring. Take my flight up to 15k and look for recon craft etc.

 

S!

[77Scout 3]

As confirmation for Pols suggestions, I fly without visual aids and no warping (as Pol mentioned) and I have many flights with no combat, even with air activity set to max.

 

As to flight path, your odds of finding enemy aircraft should be just as high if you fly off on your own route over the trenchlines, because the OFF Manager sets up other flights to just be going about their own business, independent of what your assigned flight path is.

[+Winder 32]

The flights taking part in the theater are all on real missions - they are not necessarily anywhere near your flight but simply in your region of activity.

If you go looking you will run into them

They fly from real bases all accurately allocated with the correct Aces etc.

 

Fr example you wont see MVR in Alsace.

 

There is also often a squadron that may be active in your region that happens to be in your flight path - there may be none, one or many....

Regional activity and date (year/month) plays a big role and you will see different activity if you go to a quieter region or the earlier years.

 

The OOB database (Order Of Battle) sets the air activity as a function of the historical date (hence historical activity rating) and your PC density setting so as to make the campaign scale with PC power but maintain historical balance.

 

Finally yes as Pol points out the craft are allocated by flight to the correct squad with the correct skin by unique craft - SQ1 to SQ4 and AC1 to AC5 - if there are more flights than that for a particular craft type then the balance simply get the last craft i.e SQ4's skin but are correctly labeled as the Jasta/Squad they represent - they simply fly with the last skin allocated.

 

This is a 'limitation' that we are looking into as part of P4 expansion, but realistically it is not often that craft variance runs out as we only have so much horsepower for all the flights and we have a diverse range of active craft in most of the periods esp on low and medium density settings it virtually will never happen.

 

HTH

 

WM

[Dej 17]

The flights taking part in the theater are all on real missions - they are not necessarily anywhere near your flight but simply in your region of activity.

If you go looking you will run into them

They fly from real bases all accurately allocated with the correct Aces etc.

 

Fr example you wont see MVR in Alsace.

 

There is also often a squadron that may be active in your region that happens to be in your flight path - there may be none, one or many....

Regional activity and date (year/month) plays a big role and you will see different activity if you go to a quieter region or the earlier years.

 

The OOB database (Order Of Battle) sets the air activity as a function of the historical date (hence historical activity rating) and your PC density setting so as to make the campaign scale with PC power but maintain historical balance.

 

Finally yes as Pol points out the craft are allocated by flight to the correct squad with the correct skin by unique craft - SQ1 to SQ4 and AC1 to AC5 - if there are more flights than that for a particular craft type then the balance simply get the last craft i.e SQ4's skin but are correctly labeled as the Jasta/Squad they represent - they simply fly with the last skin allocated.

 

This is a 'limitation' that we are looking into as part of P4 expansion, but realistically it is not often that craft variance runs out as we only have so much horsepower for all the flights and we have a diverse range of active craft in most of the periods esp on low and medium density settings it virtually will never happen.

 

HTH

 

WM

 

The more you guys reveal of the finer points of BHaH the more in awe I am. You must have taken CFS3 apart and gone through it with a very fine toothcomb indeed. And now you're looking at overcoming a limitation that most of us will never encounter only to futureproof your work against the advent of higher power boxes. RESPECT!

[gaw 5]

It's always beeen a question unanswered...........why would one want to comb one's teeth?

[Rickitycrate 10]

LATEST OFF NEWS!

28 June 2009:

Work continues on new aircraft, to be released as add-ons. Pics soon!

[Bletchley 8]

I experience much the same as Creaghorn, flying RFC late in 1915 - on most missions I encounter Fokker E.III patrols, when I am flying as other than the flight leader. Never any 2-seaters. Given the replies above, then I think this must be down to the combined bionic eyes of the friendly and the enemy AI - they just always see each other, if they are in the same general area. The 2-seaters must run, whilst the scouts stay to fight. If there is any way in P4 to reduce the current visual range of the AI (by making it scaleable, perhaps, so that those who want to keep the frequent encounters can leave it as it is), or making it variable (random, or scaled on AI pilot quality or experience), then this might solve the 'problem' (for many, I guess, it isn't a problem).

 

Bletchley

[Creaghorn 10]

thank you very much for answering, sirs

 

i never fly with any aids, because it's an immersion killer and gives you advantages they didn't have in real. i usually warped till i get pulled out the first time. from then on i fly in realtime to the end.

so you say if one doesn't warp at all, you might see specks of enemy scouts and they are sometimes not attacking you, even when density is maxed out? so when you are not warping at all it might happen you can surprise enemy scouts probably? i will try it that way.

 

thank you

[Macklroy 2]

Thanks for the answer Winder. I never really strayed from the mission path much. I always thought the enemy would not appear anywhere else. Gives my 'true' DiD pilot some more freedom to roam now.

 

Thanks, S!

[+Polovski 460]

Make sure clouds are on 5 firstly. Secondly the issue of AI visual range has been brought up dozens of times, we are aware, no need to keep telling us guys :)

*IF* it's possible to adjust then yes it would be good, we will look at.

 

However note that the player can see 4-8 miles on the radar, so maybe that needs need to reduced too IF possible - it would take a fair bit of work and testing if we find out how.

 

Craighorn, keep flight density LOW if you want to meet less enemies and as WM says it will vary greatly, on

squadron,

date

location

 

so try something diffferent? Try earlier, try more remote, etc etc...

[shredward 12]

I experience much the same as Creaghorn, flying RFC late in 1915 - on most missions I encounter Fokker E.III patrols, when I am flying as other than the flight leader. Never any 2-seaters.

 

Bletchley

 

Hello Bletch,

We don't have any German two-seaters before the introduction of the Wahlfisch at the beginning of April '16. So, other than Quircks, you won't see anything earlier than that. Something we hope to amend down the road.

Cheers,

shredward

[Guest British_eh]

Very informative info, thanks WInder and Pol. Can you tell me the effect that Clouds on 5 will have? My vid card is good, but with settings at 5-4-4-5-3, not sure I'll do better than 20 FPS?

 

If you could tweak the Tac Disp to 1/2 mile, I think that that would be quite reasonable. Although Sigi may not agree, my experience with 4 years of flying OFF is that the AI "see" you all the time. Even with the hat swtich, and TIR, you, OK me, can't see as if you were physically in the craft. Thus DiD standard could be Tac Display setting to 1/2 mile :}

 

I would say that your visual perception is perhaps impaired from 20 - 50 % depending on which view you are accessing, vs your actual vison comprehension in an actual aircraft. For exaple your peripheral vision is the most acute, but has little value using a PC in OFF.

 

I have also noticed that I have had ( anecdotally speaking), lost about 1 per 5 pilots to AI crashing into my pilots. Occassionally my own, but perhaps 80 % the enemy AI. Flying with a DVII in a group of 6 , we came upon 5 - 7 enemy AI. One left the pack and came right through our group, not firing a bullet, and crashed directly into my plane. I couldn't see if it was a Japanese pilot, and I didn't expect such action. Comments?

 

Flying an SE5a I couldn't (but should have been able to) , shake two Albies, and as I had no ammo left, I was chased untill they caught me, and shot me down. Many a pilot if they avoided the first onslaught, and were able to get several hundred meters away from the skirmich, were able to make a run for it. What histroical info you have been able to find?

 

Regards,

 

British_eh

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Visibility range for us pilots can be very tricky. two to three miles should be a good range to see enemy aircraft. But not at all aspects. I was once in a traffic pattern directly behind a Piper Cub and I was only 1/2 mile away but he was almost impossible to see. All I could make out was his fuselage which was like a pencil dot. Then, when he turned base leg, there he was in all his glory. Dead on or aster, he's going to bery hard to spot, but if you can see some wing planform, that changes the picture dramatically. Then throw in the effects of camouflage, weather (haze, fog, mist, precipitation, sunlight, all wonderfully used in OFF), pilot's visual acuity, fatigue, etc. Couple that with the limitatins of monitors and you've got a complex issue.

 

I fly all aids off and I look for clues. IS that far off speck a house? I look for movement against the groud objects to determine if it's a plane, just as I do IRL. In the sky, look for the black specks (need a REALLY clean monitor...I've chased dirt specks before) and I've been able to see a formation before they saw or reacted to me. That's when the real fun and excitement of OFF kicks in. Now, I have the decision whether to commit to battle or run away. I get to decide how to approach (charge straight in or maneuver for advantage) and , of course, I don't know at that point whether they're friendly or enemy, but I can use clues (heading, time of day, altitude, number of aircraft) to make an educated guess, but ultimately won't know til I'm close enough to fire. I've stalked friendly flights before. Camouflage? Can be effective. Many aircraft are very hard to pick out from above. And a N17 against a cloudy sky? Forget it!

 

AI visual abilities? Now, there's a horse of another color.

 

Now that we're on the subject, let me give my biggest gripe about AI, and not just in OFF. I've seen it in IL2 as well. It's not the uber marksman or pilot with radar vision though those are aggravating, but when the AI negates the differences in aircraft. Especially in WWI where the differences in performance ebbed and flowed so dramatically. For example: OFF - I should be able to outrun a N11 in an ALB DII.

IL2 - I should be able to outrun a Zero when diving in a Wildcat. I'm not blaming FM at all. It's the advantage given to AI so as not to be too easy. I would like to see what OFF is like with the AI having no advantages and the same limitations as we, using only their AI behavior code. I think, with the work done by OBD, it would be enough to keep things tense.

[Guest British_eh]

Re the AI:

 

Part of the problem I understand is that they have no weight appropriated to their flight characteristics, thus giving them a decided advantage in that category.

 

I too have the same issue. An Alb D III can't catch or outrun a SE5a, can it?

 

Regards,

 

British_eh

[+Polovski 460]

British_eh

 

From what we see clouds on 5 helps stop AI seeing through clouds

 

I can honestly say the last time I collided with a friendly was about 2 years ago, so I'd brush up on awareness more, adjust the TIR etc, choose some different craft/date/squad/settings. Got to be something set your end that one.

 

Can't remember the last enemy I collided with that was not my fault for getting too close. Flying all sorts of craft/dates/situations.

 

Yep we are using PCs and there is the difficulty, it is not real so matching all possibilities in software is pretty much impossible, but onwards we go..

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Yep we are using PCs and there is the difficulty, it is not real so matching all possibilities in software is pretty much impossible, but onwards we go..

 

Never give up, never surrender

[Fortiesboy 3]

British_eh

 

, but onwards we go..

 

And do you ever!! But don't look back over your shoulder to see where ROF is - 'cos you won't see them. They are so far behind you....

 

Sorry, no insult to ROF intended, but it's just such an obvious fact--- Having read this thread reinforces it

 

Ref. the "weight of the AI" aspect.

Thinking aloud here.

Could some weight for them not be introduced in the xdp files.or the air cfg files?

There are some values there- does increasing those values not do anything?

[+Polovski 460]

Yeah FB doesn't make any effect as far as we can tell.