Tricky Camels

[Hellshade 110]

Well I decided to make another go at learning to fly the Camel and when it isn't trying to kill you, it's a beautiful plane. Some of the oddities of it's FM just (about) kill me though. Like I'm turning / banking right, speed is still over 80 and suddenly the plane cartwheels to the left and goes into a spin. Is there a "Complete Idiots Guide to Combat in the Camel" somewhere that explains all of the strange behavior? The twin guns are nice. The forward view is excellent. The top view is blocked by the wings alot but the window slots help a bit. It seems to have pretty good power and turning ability, it's just bi-polar. One minute it's fine, and the next minute it's literally flipping out on you. Still, I've racked up a few kills in QC with it. It has the potential, I just need the skill.

 

Hellshade

[SirMike1983 3]

Then you turn left the nose will rise, to the right the nose will drop. If you get an accelerated stall, the plane will IMMIEDATELY attempt to flip over or even spin. Do NOT force the plane to turn faster than it wants to. Keep the plane turning less than the accelerated stall point. Remember that this plane WILL turn more than fast enough even if you don't max out the turn. The right turn is quicker than the left simply because the plane will try to rise and slow to the left. Turn fighting should be employed against the vast majority of opponents, perhaps except the Dr.1. When in a tight turn, especially to the right, remember that your rudder has now become a de facto temporary elevator in the sense that the rudder now helps to keep the nose level (or whatever you want the nose to do up and down).

 

Fighting a Dr.1 is a special case where you CAN try boom and zoom tactics. The Dr.1 is noticeably slower than you are. But do NOT try this if you're below him or he's close behind you-- you can't put him to pace fast enough to do it in that case. You CAN turn fight a Dr.1 using RIGHT hand turns. Avoid playing a left-hand circle against the Dr.1, rather keep pulling to the right, mindful that the rudder is now being used to point the nose up and down. Keep the throttle pegged to the max in the turns to prevent a stall-spin.

 

If you get in trouble, try a split-s. The Camel's extremely fast roll rate will allow you to quickly roll from turn mode into a split-S dive.

 

 

Those are some starting points. Give them a try.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I just can't learn to fly either of the Spads. I guess I'm more familiar with the turn fighters, but the Spads don't seem able to turn at all. Any kind of turn and I am quickly going into a spin--even when I try and keep my eye on the speedometer (yes, i cheat)!

 

With 26 kills in the Spad XIII, I'm beginning to think that Eddie Rickenbacker was the greatest pilot of the whole war! Maybe ever!

[Hellshade 110]

I just can't learn to fly either of the Spads. I guess I'm more familiar with the turn fighters, but the Spads don't seem able to turn at all. Any kind of turn and I am quickly going into a spin--even when I try and keep my eye on the speedometer (yes, i cheat)!

 

With 26 kills in the Spad XIII, I'm beginning to think that Eddie Rickenbacker was the greatest pilot of the whole war! Maybe ever!

 

I can't fly the Spads either. I'm an SE5a kinda guy myself. That stable gun platform, good turning ability and relatively clear forward view is nice. But I took the advice and am learning the Camel and it is quite impressive. To practice, I setup a QC between myself and a DR 1 on ACE mode, usually in Voss's paint scheme. Then I try to get behind him and STAY behind him, without shooting, as long as possible. Voss does every kind of turn, dive and evasive manuever possible. The longer I can stay directly on his tail without losing control and going into a spin, the better I get at mastering the "Widowmaker". That sure does make for some exciting and intense flying. Forget shooting the guy. Just try to say with him on his 6! I can see why folks love the Camel. Someday I'll try to master the spads again but I probably have at least 100 more pilots to sacrifice in order to become proficient with the Sopwith Camel.

 

Hellshade

[Hauksbee 103]

Then I try to get behind him and STAY behind him, without shooting, as long as possible.

There it is! The very heart and soul of flight sim! From the moment I first discovered computer flying, [it was a 'Chuck Yeager' title, an Apple II, and a trackball that would fit in the palm of my hand] my interest in shooting planes down was a far second to latching onto a Me-109's six, and staying there, no matter what. I just wanted to totally out-fly the S.O.B. I used to jokingly say that I just wanted to pull up close, be able to look into the other guy's cockpit, and watch him sweat blood. Which, of course, never happened.

 

Then one day, OFF arrived in the mail. Now I really can. This is Hog Heaven!

Edited July 4, 2009 by Hauksbee

[Fortiesboy 3]

I've flown the Camel in this sim quite a bit, yet it still catches me out- because, I think, I don't understand, or misunderstand, how it should be flown, combined with whether it is modelled correctly in the sim.?

 

It's the part where it rears off to the left when I am wanting to turn right, and thinking i am doing the right thing, i.e using the correct inputs, in order to make the plane turn right.

 

I read back along, that new Camel pilots were strongly advised not to try to make a right turn when below 1000 ft, because a right turn in a camel is difficult to control and the plane would violently turn in and crash. This, combined with other stuff I read, which said that turning left needed some left rudder- and turning right should also use LEFT rudder, led me to believe that the Camel wanted to spiral dive to the right if you made to turn right ( without care ).

IOW- in other planes, start a right turn and you would turn right as expected. In a Camel, start a right turn and it could viciously turn right - culminating into a spiral dive to the right.

 

I'm not sure if my understanding of that's how it happened ( in RL ) in a Camel, is correct. If it is, then how does that relate to the modelling in the sim, because, in the sim, the Camel wants to rear up and LEFT, into a stall, whereas I thought I should be ready to prevent it wanting to go RIGHT and down too quickly.

 

This view is, IMHO, reinforced by the RL requirement to use left rudder when turning either left or right?

 

So, are there any experts on RL Camel FM, (WMF2- you know about full size WW1 planes?) who can tell us definitely as to which way the camel would "go in" if left to it's tendency?

Left and up into stall?- or down and right into a spiral spin?

 

cheers

[Pips 5]

Hellshade, the Camel, more than any other aircraft, needs a firm and confident hand at the controls. Here are a couple of things I would suggest you do to master the beast.

 

First off before attempting any sort of manoeuvers get lotsa height. I mean lots, a minimum of 10,000ft is good. Try any manoeuvers and spin and height just disappears. So the more the better. If you have lost height regain it before trying another manoeuvre.

 

It is a tiring aeroplane to fly, due to it's tail heaviness which requires you to maintain forward pressure on the stick at all times. But that lets you loop in an instant, faster than anything else, including the Tripe. So if you get surprised just whack back the stick and you'll loop over onto your opponets tail. But be warned. As the Camel loops its twists to the right (that torque again), so apply some LEFT rudder as you go over. A good way to practice is when looping look out to your right (or left) at 90 degrees and watch your wingtips. It should perform a neat circle. If it does you have applied just the right amount of rudder. If not, then you need to experiment with rudder.

 

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to use trim to level out flight. If you forget to negate it you'll find the Camel doesn't peform so well in combat.

 

You can turn faster to the right than any other aeroplane in the game. So that should be your standard avoidance manoeuvre (that and the loop). You can actually - when your skilled enough - turn 270 degrees to the right faster than you can turn 100 degrees to the left. Time it you'll see. But beware, right turns are very tricky as the nose drops badly and you can enter a spin in the blink of an eye. The trick to maintaining control is to watch how you apply rudder. The normal process in any co-ordinated turn is to apply rudder in the direction of the bank. So right turn right rudder, and once you have banked to around 80 degrees (depending on the aeroplane) the rudder then functions as the elevator - twisting right or left rudder lets you raise to lower the nose during the turn. However because the torque pull to the right is so pronounced in the Camel if you keep right rudder on for too long you corkscrew down into a spin. So you have to reverse rudder ie if turning right switch rudder from right to left) earlier than normal in the bank to counteract torque. Torque and ailerons are still pulling the Camel over to the right, left rudder allows you to keep the nose up to maintain a reasonably level turn, and the elevators let you tighten the turn.

 

It's a different technique for turning left. Because that marvellous torque is ALWAYS pulling right, as you bank left the aeroplane wants to climbs. So bank left and apply at least 3/4 left rudder and keep applying left rudder all through the turn. Depending on how good a joystick you have you may even have to apply full left rudder. Make sure your rudder is calibrated. You know you've mastered turns when you can perform level turns in both directions in the Camel.

 

The Camel is slow, so you won't catch much unless you have height. Same as the Dr.1.

 

It doesn't have a particulary stirling climb rate so don't try to climb with either the Dr.1 or the D.VII. Or even the late model D.V's for that matter. If they go up you should extend outwards to give yourself room to manoeuvre. If they stay close in the climb you may be able to peform a modern day Immelmann, but if you miss your slow with no energy so beware. and if you do want to do a climbing turn make ue you perform it to the left, the natural way to climb the Camel. Go right and you'll either spinout or climb so slowly your opponet will be perched on top of you.

 

Hope some of that is useful. It works ok for me.

 

 

PS Fortiseboy, in real life the Camel, if left to it's own devices, will rollover and drop it's nose to the right and spin in.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Pips

[Siggi 10]

The Camel is my favourite plane, and it's propensity to spin is a great get-out-of-jail-free card.

[Olham 164]

Full rudder left in both turns, left and right.

 

WomenFly2 had a great video shown here, where a physician explains the immense torque

of the Camel's engine. He demonstrated it on a rotating steel mechanism, and the effects on

the various rudder actions was sometimes incredibly strange and unexpected.

If someone remembers the video, please post it again.

[Olham 164]

Here is the link to the Video about gyroscopic effects / torque:

 

[JohnGresham 0]

I just can't learn to fly either of the Spads. I guess I'm more familiar with the turn fighters, but the Spads don't seem able to turn at all. Any kind of turn and I am quickly going into a spin--even when I try and keep my eye on the speedometer (yes, i cheat)!

 

With 26 kills in the Spad XIII, I'm beginning to think that Eddie Rickenbacker was the greatest pilot of the whole war! Maybe ever!

 

Ummm, I think Rene Fonck might take issue with that. He was 'pretty good' in the SPAD XIII too.

[Olham 164]

Herr Prop Wasche - with the SPAD it's like with all other tricky crates: doing the RIGHT things.

Eddie must have bomed and zoomed, never turn-fought, and avoid nasty actions.

Try that, and you should be able to collect hours and kills.

For a turnfight-enthusiast it will be boring though.

[Duce Lewis 3]

The pilot episode of Dogfights had a segment on Rickenbacker

He attacked 2 DFW's escorted by 5 DVII's singlehanded

 

Scattered the DVII's with a diving attack (shooting 1 down)

Then he dove under and up on the DFW's

DFW's were tricky as they gave supporting fire to each other

But Eddie repeated the dive and swoop up tactics till 1 of the DFW's fell

 

The DVII's reformed so he dove away

Important thing was, he never engaged in a turning fight nor a slugfest with the DFW TGer's

[JimAttrill 24]

I have read this thread with great interest, having heard from many sources that the Camel was tricky to fly. Apparently caused by 90% of the weight of the aircraft being in the first 7 feet! When I have a bit more experience I will give it a try, but I think at the moment I would just get depressed at trying to fly an aircraft with such strange control responses. Though they always say that in the hands of an experienced pilot (if he lived that long) the Camel was just about the greatest dogfighter ever.

 

I AM glad to see that OFF has not emasculated the Camel, so when I eventually get to fly it I will feel that I have really learnt something about that amazing aeroplane.

[Olham 164]

Though they always say that in the hands of an experienced pilot (if he lived that long) the Camel was just about the greatest dogfighter ever.

 

Vell, zatt's vatt ze 'crumpet propaganda' sayz! But zey never tried ze Dreidecker!

Camels can turn great to ze right, yes? Ze Dr.1 can turn great EVERYWHERE!

Mmuahahahahahaaaa!!!!

Edited July 4, 2009 by Olham

[Duce Lewis 3]

Ze Dr.1 can turn great EVERYWHERE!

Mmuahahahahahaaaa!!!!

Ja, und kan't zee where they're goink!

Edited July 4, 2009 by Duce Lewis

[Olham 164]

Well, I think vision isn't any better in a Camel.

But - of course! - the best vision you can get is in an Albatros!!!

[Duce Lewis 3]

I tried the Dr1 and switched back to the DVII for 2 reasons

Poor forward vision and lack of exit speed

DVII has no major vises

 

Just watched Hell's Angels last night

Develops pretty slowly but there's a great dogfight scene at the end

Watching the DVII's whirl around was great

Dawn Patrol is on the viewing list tonight

[SirMike1983 3]

Rickenbacker was a quality race car driver prior to the war, so he was right at home in the Spad with the high speed attacks that the Spad utilized.

Edited July 4, 2009 by SirMike1983

[Hellshade 110]

Pips,

 

I am putting your good words to use and mastering that tempermental beast called the Camel. I try to keep in mind the things you have said about not forcing the A/C to turn faster than it wants to and to use the rudder as an elevator as I'm leaned far over during a turn. A little throttle control seems to help now and then too. It hasn't taken as long as I thought it would now that I know some of the rules and I can stick behind Voss or Richtofen in their DR 1s on ACE mode during Quick Combat flights pretty well. I still occassionally spin out but not nearly as often. I think in time the Camel may well replace the SE5a viper as my favorite aircraft. If I can turn with a DR 1 piloted by an Ace most of the time, then I should be able to put and keep just about anything in the skies within my sights long enough to take it out. A few more days of QC practice and I might just be brave enough to try a campaign pilot in one. Thanks to you and everyone else for the strategies.

 

Hellshade

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thank you for the advice about the Spad. Try not to turn fight. But, if you shouldn't turn the Spad, what is the best way to reverse direction? Half-loop, Split-S, or something else?

[Dej 17]

Well, I think vision isn't any better in a Camel.

But - of course! - the best vision you can get is in an Albatros!!!

 

The view from the Sopwith Tripe is very good... my favourite... I love that machine.

 

As far as the Camel goes I feel I have its measure at last but its tail-heaviness is a bind. I almost never climb steeply after an enemy because of the fear of stalling and slipping into a tailspin, which I've found to be unrecoverable. Instead I use the opportunity to check my tail, then throttle back and wait for the enemy machine to drop back down, which they invariably do... at which point they are mine. The Camel is also excellent at following the AI down in the spiral dive they do to try to lose you and because she turns to the right so tightly I can normally keep the bugger in my sights and either damage him a bit or apply the coup de grace.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

The Camel has been and still remains my favorite plane to fly and fight in. She is like that elegant and mysterious lady at the ball. Treat her gently and with respect and you may dance with her all night and she'll show you steps you never know existed. Try to force your hand or take her where she does not care to go and she'll slap you down faster than a cat after a fly.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[JohnGresham 0]

The Camel has been and still remains my favorite plane to fly and fight in. She is like that elegant and mysterious lady at the ball. Treat her gently and with respect and you may dance with her all night and she'll show you steps you never know existed. Try to force your hand or take her where she does not care to go and she'll slap you down faster than a cat after a fly.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Can't disagree with any of that. She is without doubt my crate of choice. Treat her right, know her limits, fly and fight to her strengths, and she's more than a match for anything the Hun can throw at you.

[Hellshade 110]

The view from the Sopwith Tripe is very good... my favourite... I love that machine.

 

The Sopwith Tripe does have an excellent view indeed and good firepower to boot. Too bad she doesn't have a little more speed and perhaps a slightly more stable turning ability. I find, like the Camel, she needs a lot of rudder control to make tight turns safely. Push her too hard and she loves to drop into a spin. I think the Camel turns better though. Too bad because she really does give one of the best views in the game, especially for keeping locked on a target EA. No forward obstructions at all.

 

Hellshade