Know Your Rival..., Pros and Cons.

[+guyran 13]

For me the worst rival in the 60's flying as blue is the Mig-17, due to his unparalleled maneuverability in dogfight.

The worst rival in the cold war era when flying as red, is the F-4 phantom, due to his long range radar guided missiles, which make it difficult to close the range unharmed.

[macelena 1,070]

Don´t feel offended by the fact that there were no replies, it´s because you said it all.

[+guyran 13]

Don´t feel offended by the fact that there were no replies, it´s because you said it all.

 

I thought other people to have different ideas regarding their worst rival.

Anyway, what are your choices for worst rivals in the 70's and 80's?

[macelena 1,070]

I thought other people to have different ideas regarding their worst rival.

Anyway, what are your choices for worst rivals in the 70's and 80's?

 

 

In that period, i think that my nemesis will differ from others. I have the Mirage Factory weapons pack, but as i found the soviet missiles too ineffective,

so i tunned them up, so MiG-25 and Su-27s became the worst. On the red side, my worst fear (and i think that everything will be said again) are F-15s.

[Dagger1 7]

Hi there in the early 70's:

 

if u are flying a phantom UR worst rival is the MIG-25 its sooooo fast and has a good radar it will hunt u from a long range, also the Mig-23MF and later models I call them the phantom hunters as its built to face the phantom... all this doesnt mean that the phantom is helpless against them...! it can out manuver the Mig-25 easy and shoot down the Mig-23 but with some effort and brains from the pilot...

 

in late 70's:

 

I call it the F-15 era it can kill all Mig's ,not forgeting the F-14 in the mid 70's with the long range missiles.... but generally it is so obvious in the early 80's war in lebanon the F-15 made a different and changed the meaning of air superiority..... Personally I think the F-15 with a good pilot is still a dangerous bird to most red fighters today as its always packed with high tech avionics and weapons...

[Syrinx 13]

" I only need to know one thing...where they are!"

[+EricJ 4,249]

 

Nice use of that quote

[+pato poli 73]

Hi, well, maybe depends on where are you...

 

At 1982 at the south Atlantic, maybe the worst thing to find is a couple of Sea Harrier with their lethal 9-L.

At the time of the Beagle crisis bettwen Argentina and Chile, the FaCH's Hunters and F-5 should meet Mirage III and V, and maybe some Peruvians airplanes too.

In Korea a Mig-15, at the six days war or Yom Kippur, an Israelian Mirage 5 "Nesher".

[macelena 1,070]

" I only need to know one thing...where they are!"

 

 

So your trouble is stealth and something wich can see you before you do. It´s a classic

[+guyran 13]

Hi there in the early 70's:

 

if u are flying a phantom UR worst rival is the MIG-25 its sooooo fast and has a good radar it will hunt u from a long range, also the Mig-23MF and later models I call them the phantom hunters as its built to face the phantom... all this doesnt mean that the phantom is helpless against them...! it can out manuver the Mig-25 easy and shoot down the Mig-23 but with some effort and brains from the pilot...

 

in late 70's:

 

The Mig-25 Foxbat was the soviet response to the American SR-71 Blackbird. It was traditionally used as high altitude reconnaissance aircraft according to the soviet doctrine, more than a fighter/interceptor. The only successful air fight, which I know about, was the shooting down of an American F/A 18C Hornet during desert storm on 1991.

On the other hand an Israeli F-15 had shoot down a Syrian Mig-25 on 1981.

Actually the Mig-25 is a heavy aircraft, with poor maneuverability, that can't exceed 4.5G. It's mainly advantage is the ability to disengage at will.

I think that the Su-27 and Mig-29 are more formidable rivals

 

but generally it is so obvious in the early 80's war in lebanon the F-15 made a different and changed the meaning of air superiority..... Personally I think the F-15 with a good pilot is still a dangerous bird to most red fighters today as its always packed with high tech avionics and weapons...

 

 

I disagree that it is the F-15, that made the difference over Lebanon. Actually the pilots are responsible for the air superiority, not the aircraft. I suppose the same results were achieved, using the F-16 or even the old F-4 or IAI Cfir.

On the 1973, Six-days war, Israel won total air superiority over Arab sky, without the F-15, or any other American aircraft.

[Luiz Carlos 0]

Hi, well, maybe depends on where are you...

 

At 1982 at the south Atlantic, maybe the worst thing to find is a couple of Sea Harrier with their lethal 9-L.

At the time of the Beagle crisis bettwen Argentina and Chile, the FaCH's Hunters and F-5 should meet Mirage III and V, and maybe some Peruvians airplanes too.

In Korea a Mig-15, at the six days war or Yom Kippur, an Israelian Mirage 5 "Nesher".

The 9-L was so dangerous at that time that it gained the nickname "Wish me" missile, because all was needed are to "wish" the enemy dead.

[macelena 1,070]

I disagree that it is the F-15, that made the difference over Lebanon. Actually the pilots are responsible for the air superiority, not the aircraft. I suppose the same results were achieved, using the F-16 or even the old F-4 or IAI Cfir.

On the 1973, Six-days war, Israel won total air superiority over Arab sky, without the F-15, or any other American aircraft.

 

The F-15 was employed allways as part of an integrated plan wich consisted in overwhelming its opponents, either in Lebanon, the Gulf or the Balkans, this, combined with it´s excellent characteristics, explain their sucess.

 

About the MiG-25, their record is poor against F-15s (Israel, Gulf War) and F-14s (Iran-Iraq, Gulf of Sidra), and it is even possible that one was once shot down by a Mirage F-1, but if worked as a part of an integrated air defence sistem wich resisted supression strikes (as suffered from US and Israeli opponents), it could have worked superbly.

[johnrey 0]

The F-15 was employed allways as part of an integrated plan wich consisted in overwhelming its opponents, either in Lebanon, the Gulf or the Balkans, this, combined with it´s excellent characteristics, explain their sucess.

 

About the MiG-25, their record is poor against F-15s (Israel, Gulf War) and F-14s (Iran-Iraq, Gulf of Sidra), and it is even possible that one was once shot down by a Mirage F-1, but if worked as a part of an integrated air defence sistem wich resisted supression strikes (as suffered from US and Israeli opponents), it could have worked superbly.

Indeed.The MiG-25 can engage and disengage at will.It is once said that MiG-25's actually outran Sparrows(or was it AMRAAM?) when F-15's fired on them.

[zmatt 2]

For me the MiG-25 and MiG-23 are both pushovers. The red missiles at that time aren't that great and they both are very lacking as dog fighters. No maneuverability and the CM does nothing to save you. I do find that BVR equipped miG-23s can be effective against stupid Mirage pilots but thats about it.

 

For me its the old gunfighters. Especially at high altitude. MiG-15s dominate up at 30k feet in the '50s and the -17 only improves on the formula. The -19 is a beast but it really needs good missiles by the time its around, as any high flying jet from a distance is sparrow fodder. The -21 can also be very effective. especially with the r-13, the more advanced atoll. It's endurance in both weapons and fuel leaves much to be desired though and it is a true point defense aircraft.

 

I have never had trouble with the MiG-29, The best thing it has going are the missiles. Archers and alamos can be deadly even with liberal application of CM. I find that even the superbly done MF MiG-29 is easy to kill. This has to be attributed to the actual aircrafts ineffectiveness as MF always makes very accurate mods. Either that or I just suck in the fulcrum! :) The su-27 is a good match for F-15s, but the lack of internal ecm and good cm mean that it doesn't live long. In general I think that red cm is inadequate. I don't know if this is game bias or if it really is that bad. If so then I think it is a good reflection of Russian doctrine about waves of disposable austere fighters.

[Gr.Viper 131]

I think, the Russian air doctrine is to deploy a ****load of SA-10 and wait for the kamikaze.

[macelena 1,070]

Indeed.The MiG-25 can engage and disengage at will.It is once said that MiG-25's actually outran Sparrows(or was it AMRAAM?) when F-15's fired on them.

 

In the late years of Southern Watch, they outran AMRAAMs and Phoenix, but someone else may tell you better

 

 

For me the MiG-25 and MiG-23 are both pushovers. The red missiles at that time aren't that great and they both are very lacking as dog fighters. No maneuverability and the CM does nothing to save you. I do find that BVR equipped miG-23s can be effective against stupid Mirage pilots but thats about it.

 

That´s why i improved the missiles as from the original MF weps to match their western counterparts. Perhaps it is not accurate, but makes the game more challenging. About the MiG-29, IIRC, the trials on german examples after 1989 showed that the combination of HMD with AA-11 made them beat every adversary in "fair", close combta conditions conditions, but it´s been proven how can this be solved with an overwhelming environment in term of SA, and all related to comms, radar, electronics, etc. What i mean is that perhaps these are as good as their opponents, but the battlefield conditions make the difference "If you engage in a fair fight, then your tactics are failing"

[Thog10 0]

In general, while flying 60's jets, its the MiG-17s that scare me. They can out-turn pretty much anything I am likely to be flying. They have plenty of gun ammo, and they can stay on my 6 and lob heavy shells my way for far too long. In comparison, MiG-21s are generally a breeze. The only time that they really scare me is when I am flying a heavily laden strike aircraft. They can get directly behind me and launch their IRMs, and there is little that I can do. However, in a lightly laden A-4 or A-7, I can generally drive off a MiG-21.

 

In fact, once an A-7D or E has less than 50% of fuel and has jettisoned AG weapons, with 2 winders and 1000 rounds of 20mm, it is not to be trifled with itself.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

As i stated before in another thread, my main concern is the MIG-19.

 

The 17 can be a real threat but you can still outfly it if you really know your aircraft. Outrolling and outclimbing it to high altitude is my usual way to deal with one. Once there you can usually count on easily outrunning it.

 

The MIG-19 though, is a much harder proposition.

 

Getting the needed separation is a real pain. You can't simply open up the throttle and voila! The the 19 is just as fast as most high performance aircraft of the 60s and has an astonishing acceleration and climb rate. 3x30mm guns also means it's a real threat anywhere within .8 of a mile of you.

 

21s are more or less harmless unless they catch you by surprise.

[+guyran 13]

Is it technically possible to make a poll on the forum and choose the most formidable opponent?

[FastCargo 412]

Is it technically possible to make a poll on the forum and choose the most formidable opponent?

 

Yes, but why would you want to.

 

Everyone's going to have their own opinion, and may even pick something not on your list.

 

FC

[Gr.Viper 131]

...something like 14,5 mm machine gun. I lost tons of planes to that. Kinda understandable why A-10 was required.

[+guyran 13]

Yes, but why would you want to.

 

Everyone's going to have their own opinion, and may even pick something not on your list.

 

FC

 

It can be interesting.

Let's give it a try. Nothing to lose.

[zmatt 2]

That´s why i improved the missiles as from the original MF weps to match their western counterparts. Perhaps it is not accurate, but makes the game more challenging. About the MiG-29, IIRC, the trials on german examples after 1989 showed that the combination of HMD with AA-11 made them beat every adversary in "fair", close combta conditions conditions, but it´s been proven how can this be solved with an overwhelming environment in term of SA, and all related to comms, radar, electronics, etc. What i mean is that perhaps these are as good as their opponents, but the battlefield conditions make the difference "If you engage in a fair fight, then your tactics are failing"

 

 

Unfortunately we can't emulate hmds in the game. No counting those and using AA-11s against lima and mike winders I find F-16s beat them handily. The thing turns like brick and acceleration is average.

[+Jarhead1 27]

The 9-L was so dangerous at that time that it gained the nickname "Wish me" missile, because all was needed are to "wish" the enemy dead.

 

The 9 B was also nicknamed the wishme missile, because pilots always said "I wish me had more sparrows instead of these damn sidewinders" lol

[Gr.Viper 131]

The "big white hope" Sparrows?