Something that should be changed

[Olham 164]

What I'm really fed up with, is to be always outnumbered by the British fighters.

 

Several times now, I encountered French flights (with Jasta 1, Vivaise, May 1917),

which where less craft than ours.

But EVERY damn time, I come across British craft, we are hugely outnumbered.

And that, although I have put the density of my own flights on high, and so I have

5 - 7 wingmen with me. But when we approach a British flight, they are already six

craft minimum, and as the fighting starts, there are always more coming in. Often,

we fight three flights of 6 - that's 18 craft against our 6 - 8.

I can't imagine, that this was the reality - even less, as I read, that it's the other

way round for the British squads: they are hugely outnumbered by the Germans.

I'd be glad, if it could be a mix of sometimes high, other times lower numbers of

enemy craft.

Also, it would be a nice change to sometimes find the enemy lower than yourself.

Thanks for your attention.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Olham

[77Scout 3]

Olham, I am also flying Jasta 1 currently, but a few months earlier (mid-January 1917 from Proville). I have not seen this problem so far, but then I have not actually seen much enemy activity at all; just one flight of three BE-2Cs encountered in 14 missions. I will report if I get any similar results as I approach (hopefully) May 1917.

 

Definitely the period you are playing should be all to the Germans advantage in numerical superiority of fighters, as you say. I wonder if it is a fluke...how often has this happened to you?

 

I know the OFF Manager is supposed to simulate the ebb and flow of air power by adjusting flight size and numbers based on the time period of each campaign mission, but have to admit I haven't noticed anything definitive happening in the ebb and flow department (maybe I die too quick). As an example, I would thing the OFF Manager should automatically adjust your flight sizes for you to reflect good times and bad times (i.e. there should be ideally be no need for a flight size adjustment in the workshop) but I haven't seen that happen much. Not saying it isn't happening...just haven't seen it.

[Winston DoRight 3]

.....What I'm really fed up with, is to be always outnumbered by the British fighters......

 

This is a problem with the way the missions are written. Fly for the Allies and you'll see the same thing. You'll be outnumbered there as well. It just doesn't make sense to create adversaries in these quantities. Mostly, I just run away.

[Guest British_eh]

Oldham - "Also, it would be a nice change to sometimes find the enemy lower than yourself.

Thanks for your attention." And combined with "my beloved Albatros - most beautiful craft, best view, and TWO Spandaus!"

 

I have just the solution for you. Send me the Jasta you fly with, and I'll put together a mission as part of the "R -Series", ( see my recent Post), so that you can have your cake and eat it, well almost

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

Edited August 3, 2009 by British_eh

[Hasse Wind 46]

I've seen this happen too, but often I find I'm attacking enemies that are themselves outnumbered, sometimes even quite badly. I've been flying a lot over Flanders area lately, and the activity there is often heavy compared to any other region. I haven't had it so bad that I'd feel I have no chance to survive against the enemy.

 

I use TAC very rarely nowadays, and that makes it actually a lot easier to survive longer. I don't even see enemies in every mission. I also use light air activity settings, which in my opinion makes the game feel more realistic. My current MFJ I (January 1917 in Flanders) pilot now has about 40 hours and 13 confirmed kills.

 

Shouldn't the OFF manager try to simulate accurately the German strategy of concentrating their Jastas heavily in certain regions? This was the practice that helped the Huns to often gain local air superiority (and of course be weaker in other sectors).

Edited August 3, 2009 by Hasse Wind

[Guest British_eh]

Hasse Wind "I also use light air activity settings"

 

Hey there, just from what I remember, the "light air activity" doesn't affect the number of missions that are dynamically generated by the OFF Manager. I'm sure one of the Mods would know.

 

You could check it by putting in "light air activity" and checking the file in "OBD> OFFCFS> Missions > Historical, and seeing what the file looks like. Then redo the Mission and put in "heavy activity", and again check the file.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[+Winder 32]

Guys there is no bias in the way missions are generated there is always X number of Allied Flights and X number of Hun Flights based on:

 

1) The OOB (order of battle)- this dictates the ratio of enemy to friendly flights based on historical reseach and varies as the two sides air activity and superiority changed over the years of the war.

 

2) The Players settings in workshops then simply scales this up or down to increase or lessen the total number of flights in the region. This does not affect the ratio in 1)

 

 

One can see that depending on what the OOB is and what the players settings are that there can be marked differences as the war progresses from mission to mission

 

Remember the flights are randomly picked and it could be that a particular mission has picked X flights from squads that are close to you. Or X flights that are far from you - both enemy and friendly.

 

This is a good thing as it adds variation to the equation.

 

The final facet that affects what you see and how often you see them is based on location.

 

OFF has 4 main regions and I list them in descending size (area and squad count ratio) and activity ratings

 

1) Somme

2) Verdun

3) Marne

4) Alsace

 

2 and 3 are very close activity wise.

 

Here then is the final effect on what you see -

 

3) Your location.

 

Alsace is lightly loaded but the fields are all quite close so you may even see more activity there.

Somme is heavily populated and heavily congested but a large area so you may not see a lot if all the activity is in W somme and you are in E somme but on average over X missions this all balances out.

As our PCs improve I would like to generate real air activity (qty wise) in these larger areas but guys we dont have the CPU power.

 

There is a small element of local air acitivity generation around your home field and your target to balance this CPU issue in the short term. But as you have seen we are still a way off from the CPU/GPU power we require realistically....

 

I would summarise by saying that the missions generated are not some random string of air activity - every one is based on replicating real flights (with real objectives) from real squads with real aces and real homebases in your area of activity, ratio'd by the OOB (who is stronger / more prevalent at that time in the war) and curtailed in overall numbers (maintaining ratio of OOB) by your settings in workshops to suit your PC power.

 

I have considered breaking down the OOB from its current 'war periods' to weekly and or even daily ratings based on Ted's exhaustive research but will not implement that just yet as its a mammoth task.

 

The other way of doing campaign generated missions (as in P1/P2) is to simply randomly generate enemy flights that are in your mission path so you will either run into enemy or not and this is then IMO the very plastic way that most campaign engines run on - I doubt that I will ever return to this.

 

We will continue to expand the real air activity model as our PCs allow.

 

I might consider expanding the CPU weightings even for 1.32 if users whant to give this a go?

 

As a parting comment the OFF campaign engine is very powerful and can be made to generate flights down to daily OOB commands to actually replicate the war day by day - the actual flights that squads undertook - thats is an ultimate goal we all look towards and Moore's curve may see us there sooner than we think.

 

 

HTH

 

WM

[Dej 17]

Forgive my ignorance if I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't 100% simulation of the daily OOB potentially remove the 'Fog of War' for the player?

 

That is to say, if I know that historically Jasta N with their inferior machines were in Location X at HH:MM today, I can lead my flight over and bag some easy kills... likewise I can avoid running into MvR and his cronies because I sure as heck can have read about where they were operating... using knowledge the contemporary pilots didn't have.

 

Isn't it wiser to retain a certain random factor, e.g. historic time and date +/- 2 hours or +/- 1 day, so the activity profile is correct but shifted randomly left or right.

[Olham 164]

Thanks for the detailed answer, Winder (and all others).

 

Seems, I have that problem alone. It happens always, when I fly north of Cambrai.

The further north i am, I meet more British than French flights, which should be correct.

But those British flights ALWAYS outnumber mine.

I did all recent campaigns in May 1917, and I come across hordes of Tripes, Pups or S.E.5a.

They are not one big flight, no, but when the firtst flight I spott is more or less our size, there

will be more flights joining in very soon, until we are outnumbered 1:3

 

Now, my neighbour just told me, that he had two flights from Wasquehal (where I am too with

Jasta 10 and Jasta 28w), where the British flights were less craft, and very low.

So I wonder, why I don't experience that? Chain of bad luck?

[+Winder 32]

Forgive my ignorance if I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't 100% simulation of the daily OOB potentially remove the 'Fog of War' for the player?

 

That is to say, if I know that historically Jasta N with their inferior machines were in Location X at HH:MM today, I can lead my flight over and bag some easy kills... likewise I can avoid running into MvR and his cronies because I sure as heck can have read about where they were operating... using knowledge the contemporary pilots didn't have.

 

Isn't it wiser to retain a certain random factor, e.g. historic time and date +/- 2 hours or +/- 1 day, so the activity profile is correct but shifted randomly left or right.

 

Yes indeed if you know historically what is happening on a day to day basis.

 

Yes it also would make the experience very consistent - if you fly on the same day 10 times in a row it would always be the same flights going out - the mission micro dynamics would differ of course as the mission plays out.

 

I have no intention of ever going down to that level as a its a mammoth amount of work.

 

The point is that the engine can cater down to that level of replay and if we ever got there there would be a button in workshops that would switch on historical war activity on or off - I doubt we will ever get there.

 

HTH

 

WM

[+Winder 32]

Thanks for the detailed answer, Winder (and all others).

 

Seems, I have that problem alone. It happens always, when I fly north of Cambrai.

The further north i am, I meet more British than French flights, which should be correct.

But those British flights ALWAYS outnumber mine.

I did all recent campaigns in May 1917, and I come across hordes of Tripes, Pups or S.E.5a.

They are not one big flight, no, but when the firtst flight I spott is more or less our size, there

will be more flights joining in very soon, until we are outnumbered 1:3

 

Now, my neighbour just told me, that he had two flights from Wasquehal (where I am too with

Jasta 10 and Jasta 28w), where the British flights were less craft, and very low.

So I wonder, why I don't experience that? Chain of bad luck?

 

 

Could be chain of bad luck certainly you can see how this can arise within the context of the system as it stands.

And it does add an extra facet of variability which in keeping with Dej's view and mine is a good thing - makes the game less predicatble.

 

However I will look at the OOBs and make sure that all is well therein and report and update with a patch if needed.

 

But first 1.32 then MP so not a top priority right now.

 

Please also remember we are working on P4.... so much to do so little time.

 

WM

[Dej 17]

Yes indeed if you know historically what is happening on a day to day basis.

 

Yes it also would make the experience very consistent - if you fly on the same day 10 times in a row it would always be the same flights going out - the mission micro dynamics would differ of course as the mission plays out.

 

I have no intention of ever going down to that level as a its a mammoth amount of work.

 

The point is that the engine can cater down to that level of replay and if we ever got there there would be a button in workshops that would switch on historical war activity on or off - I doubt we will ever get there.

 

HTH

 

WM

 

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Winder. I was worried when you said it was your ultimate goal... or at least I read it that way.

[+Winder 32]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Winder. I was worried when you said it was your ultimate goal... or at least I read it that way.

 

No sorry the ultimate goal is to have enough CPU/GPU power to generate flights in the whole theatre in keeping with ethe actual scale of events in WW1 - then I will be happy.

 

The system is powerful and can grow in effectiveness (sheer weight of air activity) or down to micro management on a per day basis.

 

WM

[Olham 164]

I understand your thought, Dej, but on the other hand, you might want to meet MvR, and you could.

I like that as it is - rather historical.

[+Winder 32]

This is a problem with the way the missions are written. Fly for the Allies and you'll see the same thing. You'll be outnumbered there as well. It just doesn't make sense to create adversaries in these quantities. Mostly, I just run away.

 

 

This should not be happening all the time based on the system function - it may happen and I guess could happen for a spell of missions based on random events within the system context and this is actually a good thing.

 

It might be worth starting a poll - are you always outnumbered in missions....

 

Yes running away if outnumbered is alwasy a good plan - one needs to pursue self preservation if you want to acheive 17 hours - pick your fights well and if at a disadvantage bug out!

I remember with my longest surviving Pilot in RB3d I followed this action plan carefully and often theer were enemies approaching that outnumbered me or my flight and we would not engage....

 

But clearly we are all seeing different things as even in this post the response varies from yes I am always outnumbered to no I am not so from that POV the system is working well.

 

I'll keep an eye on this issue nothing is ever perfect and war certainly is not either.

 

 

WM

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Good Morning Olham and All,

 

I have not seen this issue myself in flying the various planes and time periods. What I have noticed is the variety of flight sizes and random nature of encountering them. I also fly without TAC so I don't tend to encounter every flight in my AO as I am never even aware they are nearby. I have noticed that the enemy tneds to be higher more often than not, unless I lead my flight to a much higher alt than that prescribed in my mission outline. As others have noted here Olham, maybe you are just having a string of bad luck Sir.

 

On the historic side of the discussion, from what I've read it was common practice for other flights to fly to and join in a dogfight if they caught sight of one and weren't already engaged. And if air activity is heavy in a certain AO it makes sense that this scenario will more likely be played out, (and much more so on the German side of the mud as that is where the bulk of the aerial combats took place).

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Dej 17]

I understand your thought, Dej, but on the other hand, you might want to meet MvR, and you could.

I like that as it is - rather historical.

 

Meeting MvR is fine, but I absolutely don't want to be able to dictate whether I meet him.

 

I like the idea of knowing that he's in my area, if, historically, he was. That equates to inter-squadron gossip and general scuttlebutt up and down the Line. I know then that I may encounter him, but I still want the 'heart in mouth' moment and the adrenaline rush of leading my flight onto an 'apparently' even number of enemy scouts and realising suddenly... 'Oh s**t! It's Richthofen's Circus!'.

 

'Twould be a neat feature if the newpapers carried reports of prominent Jasta/Squadron moves. It would add a bit of spice to going up in a previously quiet area if you know that Jasta 11 just moved in next door... especially if you're playing full-on DiD.

 

And I definitely advocate 'running away' as a tactic, Olham... it's approved by Richthofen and Boelcke... you should try it

[Olham 164]

Dej: I definitely advocate 'running away' as a tactic, Olham... it's approved by Richthofen and Boelcke... you should try it

 

Boelke and Richthofen may have done so - Olham: never! I always fight to the last man (me).

(Shows, I'm just not as good as them - Lol!)

 

I have even witnessed that. I had spotted a bunch of Tripes on our patrol, high up in a cloud.

On the way back, we had to pass them again. I tried to catch up with MvR's flight to help him,

but the great ace decided to dive away from them as fast as possible. They didn't follow, and

we were all saved by his attitude.

Me, I am just too impatient for that behaviour, still trying to win the war single-handed.

[+Winder 32]

Or one could state without trying to use diplomacy, 'When most of the Developers are born in the fatherland, things might be different, until then live with it' . .

 

 

I will say this once and for all there is no bias in OFF other than the historcally based aspect of the OOB in terms of air activity and supremacy at the period of time of the mission.

 

Ditto any feelings of uber craft etc - we just dont approach the sim this way at all - we are too factually biased for this and by now I would hope that is clearly evident in OFF.

 

Our team is about 50/50 Crumpet and Hun and yeah that includes our leading Hun supporter.... OVS he counts for 3 Crumpet fans I think with his sheer fanaticism of Hun craft.

 

 

HTH

 

WM

[+Winder 32]

I understand your thought, Dej, but on the other hand, you might want to meet MvR, and you could.

I like that as it is - rather historical.

 

Yes you can and do meet MvR as the system stands right now if you are near his squad/field range...and he is historically still alive i.e up til XX April 1918. 21st? cannot recall

 

HTH

 

WM

[Olham 164]

Yes, I want to make a clear statement here too: I don't think it is like UncleAl says.

And I believe you, Winder, alone because you all are so much into getting it right.

(And cause I have OvS to watch it... Lol!)

[OvS 8]

Yes, I want to make a clear statement here too: I don't think it is like UncleAl says.

And I believe you, Winder, alone because you all are so much into getting it right.

(And cause I have OvS to watch it... Lol!)

 

 

Winder is spot on. There is no bias in OFF, in fact, as he already pointed out, I am always reminding him about how important the Huns are, so it's a very even balance and he's done a superior job in keeping it that way.

 

Even us introducing the the E.V gave way to the idea of balancing it with the Snipe. If one get one, the other has to.

 

As far as the squadrons... it's a known fact that the Entente flew with more pilots and planes, that were less skillful as the Huns. The Huns flew in smaller packs (Kettes) but used superior tactics and advantages when they had them. As the war raged on though, the Huns became more defensive in nature and less agressive. So I feel the missions are correct. I should expect to see a lot more Entente when I fly as a Hun... but now and then, I should still see a large grouping of Huns now and then, especially when the JG's were formed.

 

OvS

 

PS... Eventhough I approach all assigned skinning jobs the same, I wear a specific t-shirt/baseball hat combo that says 'Huns Rule!' whenever I am skinning Hun planes.

[Olham 164]

Okay, okay! Just thought about the question: do you others all fly with the other flight together?

 

Cause, I rarely do that. I thought, they have a different flight path anyway.

But if I'm wrong there, it may be no wonder I find my flights outnumbered?

[Dej 17]

Okay, okay! Just thought about the question: do you others all fly with the other flight together?

 

Hell, YES!

 

Always lead your flight and stay with the other flight - THE ONE WITH THE ACES IN! - as long as you can without missing your mission target completely. If you're flying after the first four months of 1917 then the days of the lone wolf are drawing to a close. The only safety in OFF is safety in numbers... combined with a healthy respect for the maxim 'he who fights and runs way, lives to fight another day'.

 

Besides, 'A' Flight has better eyesight than you and if you stick with them you'll spot the enemy sooner, giving you the option to decide whether to engage and risk your wingies' lives, or not.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Dej

[+Polovski 458]

You see it's all in there, you just have to look for the solution ;)