How often are you outnumbered?

[Olham 164]

Since I find myself outnumbered by British flights almost every time, I wrote a post about

that; only to see, that this doesn't seem to happen to everyone else.

Winder brought up the idea to have a poll about that phenomenon - so here it is.

 

This is only meant to be about FIGHTERS MEETING FIGHTERS - please, two-seater-boys,

don't take part here.

[Dej 17]

Couldn't put a precise value on how often outnumbered.

 

I normally fly for the RFC and the way it seems to pan out it that we're more often than not evenly matched in numbers, especially if we're bounced. We may be outnumbered if the first flight buggers off and leaves us with the enemy stacked up to take them on too.

 

OTOH, whenever we gatecrash someone else's party we seem always to outnumber the Hun, even if some other blighters turn up, some more Brits will arrive very shortly afterwards. I've had running dogfights across miles and miles of the Front, almost seamlessly going from one encounter to the next. Highly atmospheric, and realistic, from some of the reports I've read anyway.

[Olham 164]

Dej: ...whenever we gatecrash someone else's party we seem always to outnumber the Hun,

even if some other blighters turn up, some more Brits will arrive very shortly afterwards.

 

Maybe that's what happens to me all the time. It maybe, because I always approach other

distant flights, searching the fights. I will try another pilot behaving different.

[+Winder 32]

Olham thanks looks good but date is exceedingly important as the supremeacy and frequency of flights and density thereof of the opponents changes over time (OOB).

 

So to put this in context one must know the month and year... may I suggest:

 

1914; 1915 ; 1916 (1st half) 1;916 (2nd half) ; 1917 (1st half); 1917 (2nd half); 1918 (up til April) ;1918 (Post April)

 

Bloody April for an example is tough for the Brits and easeir for the Hun.

 

But lets examine that statement.

 

This does not necesarrily mean that if you are flying Hun during Bloody April in '16 that you will easily make 17 hours and make lots of kills and the reason is simple - attrition always happens no matter the time period and you can easily become a statistic even in the easiest time periods.

 

Balance therefore in the OOB means average over the two opposing sides - the player in OFF is but one member of the side he fights for.

OFF is not about the player winning the war - it will never happen that way.

 

Yes pick your fights and engage only when odds are in your favour - without using TAC - and you will fly longer live longer no matter what period or location or nationality of your pilot. In a nutshell self preservation is the key.

 

HTH

 

WM

[Olham 164]

Winder: Olham thanks looks good but date is exceedingly important

 

I had only 5 questions, so I couldn't do the dates. But still tough, we should get a kind of overview.

 

Winder: OFF is not about the player winning the war - it will never happen that way.

 

No, certainly not - and I would never like it, if it was.

 

Winder: In a nutshell self preservation is the key.

 

Hmm?? But I'm not nuts (I hope - Lol!). Now, I'm quite aware, that my way of fighting this war, is

surely not made for lasting very long; I'm the "Anti-Creaghorn" so to say. It would just be nice to

meet the green and brown planes in lesser numbers or at lower altitude - just sometimes.

[Bullethead 12]

I do almost all my flying for the RFC in Bloody April 1917, in the Arras area. The following May isn't noticeably easier, but if I can live into June (so far only due to being hospitalized for much of the bad times), things get much easier. At that point, I usually invalid my pilot home in a straitjacket and start over.

 

In Bloody April, I am almost always outnumbered, which I think is historically accurate. IIRC, the Brits were sending out individual flights most of the time while the Germans were roaming around in full Jastas. Anyway, that's the type of fight I usually get into.

 

Sometimes, both flights in my squadron do the same thing, but are usually several miles apart when the fun starts. As such, the Huns still have a significant numerical advantage for the initial clash, and when they pick on my B Flight, A Flight doesn't always come to help. But when they go for A Flight first, I go join the party to bounce THEM for a change. However, sometimes 2 different Jastas bounce both our flights simultaneously.

 

Due to attrition and at least 2 guys always being on leave, after the 1st couple of missions I only have 2 wingmen instead of 3, and occasionally only 1 buddy. Sometimes we tangle with the same Germans repeatedly in a short period of time, and they get attritted, too. They appear to start out mostly in gangs of at least 8, but if we've been hitting them hard they might be down to only 5 planes once in a while. However, 7-8 Germans is the usual opposition, although 10-12 isn't uncommon.

 

Although I see many friendly 2-seaters, I've only met friendly scouts from other squadrons a couple of times. Once they passed close by in a non-combat situation, and once they were fighting on the deck when we got there. IOW, my flight has never received reinforcements from that source. The Germans, however, sometimes get reinforcements, or I'll meet another gang of them as I limp home after the 1st fight.

 

Most times, I'm bounced from high above. This happens surprisingly often on the Brit side of the lines as we're still climbing toward the front. Thus, many of my fights happen at fairly low altitude, which is annoying because the Pup does better against the Albatros up high. On the plus side, however, it doesn't take long to get down into friendly AAMG range, which is a big help when we're as outnumbered as we usually are . If we can avoid this, however, we can reach 15-16000 feet over the Lines. We're usually still hit from above, but not by as much, and the relative performance isn't so much in the Germans' favor. Still, the majority of my fights happen on our side or directly over the trenches. It's quite rare to penetrate far into Hunland without getting into a fight, after which it's usually necessary to go home instead of pressing on.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Being too aggressive is what kills pilots quickly in OFF. I've noticed that almost all of my "Pfalz mentality" pilots (who avoid combat when the situation is not advantageous - an absolute must when being a Pfalz pilot, so I decided to name the method after that) live much longer than the aggressive turn fighter guys.

 

Using TAC all the time to look for fights everywhere will produce spectacular kill numbers for a short period, but then the Grim Reaper swings his scythe and collects another trophy...

[Olham 164]

Bullet, sorry, but as a two-seater chap, you shouldn't vote in the poll.

[Maeran 20]

Normally I'm overwhelmingly outnumbered, because my wingmen disappear very quickly. OK, not always, but that's how many of my pilots have gone.

 

Actually, although I voted that I was often outnumbered, I've checked my flight notes for previous campaigns (the current chap is having such a quiet time in spring 1916, that I'll probably replace him) and this isn't really the case at all.

 

My last German career (I've only flown 3- can't get into them): Jasta 77b in the Marne, March 1918. Flew 4 missions and was outnumbered 4:6 and 4:7 in two fights.

 

British campaigns, mostly summer 1917 to summer 1918 (with the exception of a summer in 1916 with 1 RNAS and lots of 9 plane flights of Eindekkers); I had 36 encounters equal or greater numbers to the enemy and 24 in which I was outnumbered, typically 4:6. The distribution was uneven, so sometimes there was a long string of encounters with small enemy flights and then all of a sudden you'd be fighting for your life. If you were in the middle of one of those period it certainly feels like you're against it.

[Creaghorn 10]

i think 3 important things missing in the poll is

1. what flight density?

2. what airactivity?

3. what altitude?

 

i think if flight density is high, you will sometimes be outnumbered, sometimes outnumber the enemy.

also it depends a lot what altitude you have. if you have missions where you are up almost at the ceiling (i mean without using any tack or radar) the chance you'll miss enemies is greater.

i have airactivity on low, because my rig works better and IMHO even then you run more often in fights than it was in real. but much less than with other settings. i would suggest to everybody to have density on high and altitude also on the highest.

 

i think (don't know if true of course) the airsuperiority is some percentage. if it's a time where the allied had the numerical advantage with set high airactivity, there might be e.g. 100 squads outside and 50 german squads. if set on medium, the manager scales it down to maybe 50 british squad and 25 german, and if it's set on light then 5 british squads and 1 german (just example numbers). but the superiority stays the same.

the backside is, if the manager scales it down, it might be that from the e.g. 5 british squads, 4 of them are scouts units because the manager doesn't see any differences between hunters and two seaters. it just scales it down and the rest is pure conincidence. so it might happen you'll always run into scout units and often the very same. but i might be wrong of course.

 

i think the overall reason for beeing outnumbered often or getting into trouble with lot of enemies (even with having airsuperiority) is the too good AI-sight. shorter sight would mean less attacking squads in your area. both own and enemy AI. sorry pol. i know it's said 1000 times already, but i just point it what's IMHO one of the main reasons for a lot of things and i know you'll look into that if possible.

[Bullethead 12]

Bullet, sorry, but as a two-seater chap, you shouldn't vote in the poll.

 

That was my experience as a Pup pilot. I mostly alternate between Pups and Fees, all in Bloody April.

 

But even if I had talked about my Fee experience, the only difference in my answer would have been to leave out the part about fighting at 15000 feet. Fees can't come close to that altitude . But my Pup rarely gets that high because of the frequency of being bounced on my side of the mud while still climbing.

 

Basically, if you're a Brit in Bloody April, you can pretty much depend on being bounced from high above by about twice your numbers on nearly every mission, regardless of what you're flying.

 

And BTW, I have the highest flight density, air activity, and altitudes set.

[Olham 164]

Sorry, Bullet - didn't know you fly fighters occasionally. Must have missed all reports about such missions.

But maybe you're not the great fighter ace, eyh? (Lol!)

 

Creaghorn, I had made a HUGE mistake - I have always flown with my B-flight alone, cause I believed,

that A-flight had different mission tasks. Read my last post in "Something should be changed".

[Olham 164]

Creaghorn - a poll can have only 5 questions. And: the altitude IS IN THERE - please read.

[Mr. Lucky 0]

I usually fly late 1916, early 1917 in Verdun and am almost always outnumbered by the enemy. Not every time though.

Last mission flying SE5A in mid April 1917, we outnumbered the encountered enemy 3 to 2.

I cannot ascertain whether all of those began outnumbered or others joined in. I could tell once or twice that the latter was the case but it's hard to give details when you're fighting for your life.

[Duce Lewis 3]

I've been flying Fok D7's, Aug/Sept 1918 lately

 

Usually outnumbered but not overwelmingly, 6:4 average

A Flight seems to always have the same size or usually larger formation

Adding to that my wingman goes on leave alot

But I'm not frustrated as this is manageable

 

Biggest problem I have is that HA almost always have a large height advantage

This requires manuevering and my flight can't stay with me in the turns (hit R alot)

A Flight has a big height advntage too and usually engages 1st or simply flies on

So either we're clawing for altitude trying to get in the fight, or getting bounced by superior numbers

 

I've taken to detailing A Flight's stupid decisions in my claim reports

I warp a real lot so the problem isn't being on the wrong flight path (vertically)

On very rare occasions our flight gets top cover assignment but usually it's far below and behind

 

Good Poll Olham and thanks for jumping right on this Winder!

[Bullethead 12]

I warp a real lot so the problem isn't being on the wrong flight path (vertically)

 

Warping practically guarantees you'll be lower than the enemy. See the thread on Warping and the Enemy.

[Parky 8]

In answer to the poll's heading, my answer would have to be "quite frequently". Wouldn't have it any other way though. I seriously doubt that has anything to do with my inability to reach the 17 hr mark, and I've been trying since phase ONE. It's all about picking your battles more than anything. Best combat flightsim I've ever seen.....bar none. You don't "play" BHaH........you "live" it.

 

 

 

[Duce Lewis 3]

Warping practically guarantees you'll be lower than the enemy. See the thread on Warping and the Enemy.

Yes, good converation there

 

Problem might be solvbable though

A Flight and HA are Warping too

 

Winder, any chance of modifications here?

[Guest British_eh]

WINDER: Yes pick your fights and engage only when odds are in your favour - without using TAC - and you will fly longer live longer no matter what period or location or nationality of your pilot. In a nutshell self preservation is the key.

Thank you Winder for responding to this issue with the most sensible approach. I would wish you success in addressing this issue as it is at the very heart of OFF.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[Gous 0]

I fly with the RFC in Flanders, at 1917-1918 and I have to say that sometimes I find myself outnumbered and sometimes we outnumber the enemy. I just cant see the problem you guys have noticed...

[Olham 164]

Parky: You don't "play" BHaH........you "live" it.

 

Could one say it any better?

[Creaghorn 10]

Creaghorn - a poll can have only 5 questions. And: the altitude IS IN THERE - please read.

 

sorry, i voted and then forgot it. i was never known to have the best short term memory .

[carrick58 23]

I fly with the RFC in Flanders, at 1917-1918 and I have to say that sometimes I find myself outnumbered and sometimes we outnumber the enemy. I just cant see the problem you guys have noticed...

 

 

although I am new to single seaters, we do seem to get outnumbered by fighters. My Albatross D-3 driver is with jasta 9 in 1917 and we always seem to run in flights of 5 N17s and Spad 7s. Sometimes the V strutters number 5 or 3 even 2 and still the emeny ( most of the time ) numbers 5 a flight. Exceptions due occurr, Ran into a furball of 3 V strutters 2 N 17s added my drivers 2 V stutters brought it up to 5 to 2 Then 5 Spad 7s droped in on the fight so I shot and ran final tally: loss 1 Albatross plus one that crash landed (Force landing?) 1 Spad and 2 N 17s. The other exception seems to be 2 seaters the flights seem to range between 5 and 3. Sure wood like to see a single flying alone.

[Olham 164]

Yes, carrick, a single fighter, or a duo, would be a good addition to a future version of BHaH.

Please, don't call us "drivers" - we are pilots. So we don't drive drunk - when we're drunk, we fly!

When we're not drunk, we sleep, although we sometimes sleep drunk. Not easy, eyh?

Do you fly together with flight 1 ? You should do that - since I am doing so, we are not so badly outnumbered.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Olham