What`s wrong with the MiG's

[magic1104 0]

Hey guys!

 

I have installed the Mig-21 Complete Pack SF2 Europe 1.2. So far so good. My favorite is the MiG 21 PFM (SPS-K). But i wondered. In a dogfight over East Berlin i engage with 4 Mig-21 (guns and a pair of R-13M)a pair of 2 F-104 Starfigthers with her gun ammunation. I pull my MiG with the best Rollrate to the best maneuverabel speed, but the Starfigthers (other planes too) have a better Rollrate and a better turn radius. I think it is not real. Im frustrated when i see that. The Starfigthers, Super Mystere's or Thunderstreaks havent a better performance then a MiG, or?

 

Has anyone the same experience made?

 

Hhhrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

[MigBuster 2,884]

Depends on the model - are they stock F-104s?

when you say "to the best manoeuvrable speed" - I'm assuming you mean the MiG-21PFMs corner speed in a horizontal turn?

 

Havnt tried the Mystere or thunderstreak but most early 50s fighters were built for turning fights - e.g the Hunter and MiG-17 can out turn pretty much anything in the horizontal. The MiG-21 is more of a high level interceptor so it may have had better horizontal turning ability than the F-104 - but not over the Super Mystere/F-84 - so you would be best using speed in a vertical fight against those.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Another variable is your altitude.

 

Thrust is relative to altitude. With certain aircraft (The F-4 most notable) below 15,000 or so their engines provide a lot more thrust than the 21s rather modest powerplant.

 

The lower you go, the more MIG's performance degrades.

[magic1104 0]

Yes, I used the stock model of the F-104. I'm surprised the acceleration and climb rate of Starfigther. It would have to 88m / sec are those of the MiG-21 at 180 m / sec.

 

There is the saying: "A single tight curve and the Starfigther has its total fuel consumed" He's not really been very manoeuvrable. Therefore, I doubt that surpasses this short with his stump land a MiG in the turning rate.

 

I'll probably still spend a few hours of training at the flight behavior to better understand. Before I flew F-4, F-100 and F-8. Is quite a difference.

 

But finally I can live my childhood dream ;-)

[+guyran 13]

I just tried it myself on SF2. 4 Mig-21PFM against 4 F-104C 10_65. I found no problem for the Mig to keep turning with the F-104 and shoot it down.

Don't hesitate to use the afterburner to maintain high G turning, because the f-104 are doing the same.

Look in your options- gameplay - Enemy skill level, maybe it is set to hard. If so, turn it into normal, so the enemy pulls less G.

Edited September 6, 2009 by guyran

[MigBuster 2,884]

The F-104G could do over Mach 2.2 and had a better climb rate than the F-4 according to most sources - it really was a rocket ship due to its fantastic thrust to weight ratio and thin wing.

 

 

Here are some pilot stories:

 

http://www.combatsim.com/review.php?id=5

 

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Ruminations%20on%20the%20F-104.htm

[+Brain32 265]

If you fly on "Hard" FM setting then tough luck as AI flies on "Normal", they can't stall or spin and can pull insanely tight manouvers, try flying the F-104...

The words "turn" and "F-104" should not be mentioned in the same sentence and that's how it will work when you try flying the 104, but when AI flies it - It's Spitfire - Starfighter F-104 lol

[ShrikeHawk 384]

The F-104 should outclimb practically everything except for the British Lightning. Starfighters were essentially rocketships.

 

When I flew the F-104 in WoE, I was surprised at its turning ability. I thought it turned far better than the F-4. That doesn't make sense to me. It should have a far higher wingloading than the F-4. Still, I think I could easily outturn the game's F-104 in a mig-21. It's mighty nimble aircraft in my estimation.

[Fubar512 1,350]

The F-104 should outclimb practically everything except for the British Lightning. Starfighters were essentially rocketships.

 

When I flew the F-104 in WoE, I was surprised at its turning ability. I thought it turned far better than the F-4. That doesn't make sense to me. It should have a far higher wingloading than the F-4. Still, I think I could easily outturn the game's F-104 in a mig-21. It's mighty nimble aircraft in my estimation.

 

The SF '104 doesn't turn anywhere near as well as the SF F-4. You're confusing the lack of (or onset of) stall-buffet, with maneuverabilty. The SF F-104's stab values are such that they do not come anywhere near overcoming the wing's lift values at speed.

 

Think of two people on a see-saw. In the F-104's case, the fulcrum of the see-saw is located closer to the tail section, so the person sitting on the "wing" side, has more leverage.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Fubar512

[ShrikeHawk 384]

The SF '104 doesn't turn anywhere near as well as the SF F-4. You're confusing the lack of (or onset of) stall-buffet, with maneuverabilty. The SF F-104's stab values are such that they do not come anywhere near overcoming the wing's lift values at speed.

 

Think of two people on a see-saw. In the F-104's case, the fulcrum of the see-saw is located closer to the tail section, so the person sitting on the "wing" side, has more leverage.

 

Well, then that would be much closer to reality. I'll have to try them out one mission after the other to analyze it more closely. I just "sense" that the F-104 moved through the angles of the turn more easily. Whereas, yes, the F-4 hits the stall-buffet much more quickly. When that happens it ceases to turn efficiently any longer. But certainly, I didn't stop to analyze the turn radiius of each nor count the seconds through the turn.

 

In F-4s, I usually run away to get some distance between me and the target, gain speed, turn around and engage with sparrows. If I have to engage with sidewinders or guns, I go after the guy who doesn't see me and make slashing attacks.

[eraser_tr 29]

Turning is also a matter of speed. If you're trying to maneuver in a starfighter at 200kts turning is impossible and you'll have a mig 21 on your tail in no time. But keeping speed very high, the F-104 does surprisingly well.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Generally, an aircraft achieves it's maximum turn rate for its given-speed, at the point where it begins to experience the onset of stall buffet. There was a member here at CA, that owned a Lim-5, and he reported that it took very little stick displacement to achieve stall buffet....not that he tried to push through it...

[ShrikeHawk 384]

I just completed two engagements, one in the F-104, and one in the F-4E. The result is inconclusive. The Mig-21s in the F-104 fight didn't attempt a turning battle. That made it easy for me to catch them and get 5 gun kills (all the sidewinders, aim9B, missed). I had to make hard initial turns but not sustained ones so my speed stayed very high, around 380 kts or higher. In the F-4E fight, I took on Mig-19s which I think turn slightly better than Mig-21s. These pilots were much more aggressive and forced a turning fight. I was able to stay with them in a flat turn but not overtake. Using lag pursuit helped me get one of the kills. Whenever my speed dropped to 280 kts or less, I disengaged and ran for it. I managed 2 sparrow kills, 1 sidewinder kill, and one gun kill.

 

I have found that the F-4E turns better than the F-4J and slightly better than the F-4B. Is that just my imagination? I would have expected the later J to turn better than the earlier E model.

[Fubar512 1,350]

I have found that the F-4E turns better than the F-4J and slightly better than the F-4B. Is that just my imagination? I would have expected the later J to turn better than the earlier E model.

 

Which F-4E? The hard wing F-4E and the F-4J are essentially the same. The later model (slatted-wing) F-4E could hold a turm better than an F-4J, as the leading edge slats allowed it to maintain a few more units of alpha before stall-buffet set in.

 

Never, ever, allow any F-4 varient's airspeed to decay below 450 knots (indicated air speed) during a dogfight....

[ShrikeHawk 384]

Which F-4E?

 

Not sure. This is the default F-4E that comes with WoV.

 

I just tried an F-4S ( I know this one has slots ) and it was pitifully easy taking on Mig-17s.

 

I do realize you shouldn't let your speed drop in an F-4, but it's difficult to get on the tail of 17s and 19s without getting into a sustained turn. Once the sparrows are all gone, I kinda feel naked in an F-4. Especially in the F-4J.

[macelena 1,070]

About the F-104, i can tell you i love that bitch. It won´t out maneuver anything, but shall outclimb it. I flew it against all it´s

contemporaries, and it´s challenging. However, once you know her, it´s fantastic. Loop, get distance, don´t engage 1vs 1 but

use all chances to break and engage targets of opportunity. You know that you can´t out turn anything, so don´t bother. Try

slash attack with guns (takes a lot of price and ammo) and "who stalls first" climb runs.

 

There is some trouble, i.e, the AI doesn´t fly it the best way, so you may be flying alone against a lot of MiG that slayed you flight

because your AI pilots try to maneuver it the same way on a Sabre or an F-5. On SF2E, i heard that stock F-104 flight

model is wrong, and it was described as "a small thunderchief", IIRC

[+Gepard 11,292]

I think the F-104 flight model is overrated. The Starfighter turns and accelerates better tahn in reality. But we should not forget: its a game!

[magic1104 0]

Certainly it is a game. Nevertheless, even developed a certain enthusiasm. I like the MiG's and appreciate their maneuverability. I just might not believe that a Starfigther is better than a 21 st But as I said, I will hone my tactics. Previously, MiG's my game, now I hunt with them.

 

Thank you for your statements,

 

Greeting magic1104

[Fubar512 1,350]

The later model Starfighters were actually capable of supercruising at higher altitudes. Further reading:

 

"The F-104 is generally restricted by heat in the compressor section of the engine and certain parts of the airframe. Early Starfighters could not exceed Mach 2.2 without potentially damaging the engine; on later models with the -19 engine this was increased to Mach 2.3. The canopy limit is around Mach 2.6. The airframe on late models is stable out to Mach 2.8. As top speed is approached in the F-104 the pilot must throttle back to keep from exceeding the safe limits, unlike almost any other plane. One US Air Force pilot wrote that in his experience the F-104 was the only plane he had ever flown where even the squadron dog could exceed all the red lines. For comparison, the normal top speed of the F-15 is Mach 2.3, with a time-limited pursuit mode of Mach 2.6. It can do this carrying some missiles, but not with drop tanks. (Later models of the Eagle with improved engines may be able to.)

 

Keep in mind that the low-altitude record for flight speed was set in the Seventies with a slightly modified Starfighter. Which was owned by a civilian group, Darryl Greenameyer's Red Baron racing team. They went to the high desert and set the record at 988 mph, averaged from four passes, each at a height above ground level of less than a hundred meters. The record requires that this be done without landing or exceeding an altitude of 300 meters between passes. On one set of passes the plane averaged just over 1000 mph, but due to a fault in the timing equipment this is not official. Before this, military pilots of two-seat models given the task of taking some VIP for a ride liked to return to base on the deck and casually mention that they were exceeding the official world low altitude speed record. The F-104's thin wings not only have low drag, they are less affected by turbulence. It is the only plane around with the combination of endurance, handling and speed for setting such a record.

 

You will read in some references that the F-104 is not very maneuverable. Well, down low and going slow, it isn't. However, high and fast - which was how it was designed to operate - it is just about untouchable. The secret is energy maneuvering, repeatedly trading speed for altitude and vice versa. Pilots of other aircraft flying practice dogfights against a Starfighter get left behind when their opponent makes a vertical maneuver they can't match. While they are trying to relocate the tiny plane, it suddenly dives on them from behind. Repeated slashing maneuvers leave opponents riddled, while providing little opportunity for retaliation. (Members of one squadron of F-105 pilots participating in dissimilar aircraft exercises complained that the only reason they came in second was that the F-104s kept going up and down, instead of turning hard like real airplanes do. One F-8 pilot in another dissimilar aircraft exercise chased down what he thought was a lone F-4 - which also used the J-79 engine - only to see an F-104 break off from close formation, going into a vertical climb. He lost that match.) "

 

Source: http://www.dcr.net/~stickmak/JOHT/joht12f-104.htm

[ShrikeHawk 384]

Further reading:

 

You will read in some references that the F-104 is not very maneuverable. Well, down low and going slow, it isn't. However, high and fast - which was how it was designed to operate - it is just about untouchable. The secret is energy maneuvering, repeatedly trading speed for altitude and vice versa. Pilots of other aircraft flying practice dogfights against a Starfighter get left behind when their opponent makes a vertical maneuver they can't match. While they are trying to relocate the tiny plane, it suddenly dives on them from behind. Repeated slashing maneuvers leave opponents riddled, while providing little opportunity for retaliation. (Members of one squadron of F-105 pilots participating in dissimilar aircraft exercises complained that the only reason they came in second was that the F-104s kept going up and down, instead of turning hard like real airplanes do. One F-8 pilot in another dissimilar aircraft exercise chased down what he thought was a lone F-4 - which also used the J-79 engine - only to see an F-104 break off from close formation, going into a vertical climb. He lost that match.) "

 

Source: http://www.dcr.net/~...joht12f-104.htm

 

...Then the way the F-104 is modeled in WoE is dead on from my perspective. Above Angels 15 I felt I ruled the skies in the Starfighter.

Edited September 7, 2009 by ShrikeHawk