Hats off to the Hun!

[Stiffy 1]

Truly amazing landing in this post war footage of Ernst Udet. Can anyone duplicate this in OFF?... i know i couldnt!

 

[OvS 8]

Truly amazing landing in this post war footage of Ernst Udet. Can anyone duplicate this in OFF?... i know i couldnt!

 

 

Ernst Udet was a far better pilot than most give him credit for basing it solely on kill #'s. If you look at his kill list, there are more single seat scouts on it that 2-seaters. Not putting MvR down here, but I'd say it takes more skill to knock out another scout than a slower 2-seater, even with a rear-firing MG pointed at you.

 

MvR was to Fonck as Udet was to Guynemer.

 

OvS

[Check Six 2]

Ernst was indeed a superb pilot. I've seen this footage before, and some others, and I have been amazed as you were.

[Von Paulus 8]

Great landing indeed.

[+Paarma 0]

Yes and something tell´s about his skills that he was fighter pilot from early in the was starting fly fokker eindeckers and survived the war not been hospitalized.

Not many really survived flying over 2 years in fighter pilot or more.

[Olham 164]

I think it's not putting MvR down to say, that Udet survived the war.

This is great footage, and has been posted several times here.

 

Did anyone notice, he collects a towel from ground with a hook fit to the lower wing. in the first scene?

A German actress, who knew him, said: Oh, Ernst, he is a very lucky hot rock - he should have been

dead a hundred times.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Here's about as close as I can get with an OFF Camel, landing it dead stick with full left rudder.

 

Camel Landing

 

I'm sure as hellfire no Udet. That man could fly.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Olham 164]

Does "dead stick landing" mean: engine off?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Yes, it certainly does Olham. More slang for you Sir.

 

.

[Olham 164]

Thanks! I just thought, how lucky aviation was/is, that the Germans have lost both big wars.

Imagine all aviation language being German - only the Germans would want that, I suppose.

[JFM 18]

Hello, all,

 

From what I've seen Udet has always been universally regarded as an excellent pilot. Are there those who think otherwise? If so, I'm surprised.

 

As far as skill shooting down two-seaters vs single-seaters, if it was so easy to shoot down two-seaters then why didn't everybody have 80 victories? Especially an excellent pilot who's first victory was 6 months before MvR's first and who's last victory was 6 months after MvR's death? I understand nobody is putting MvR down by comparing his victory list to Udet's, which is good because then they'd also be putting down Allmenröder, Boelcke, Immelmann, LvRichthofen, Schaefer, Voss, Wolff, Ball, Hawker, Lufbery, McCudden, McElroy, etc., all of whom had more two-seater victories than single-seater victories.

 

In my view it was much more dangerous to attack a two-seater--as Udet learned when he was shot down by one (as was possibly MvR, although I can't determine who fired the bullet that wounded him but an FE2d is [iMO] the most likely)--since the preferred attack methodology employed an unseen stern closure, which is more difficult to pull off with an observer/gunner. If you close unseen behind a single-seat scout via Dicta Boelcke and kill the pilot before he sees you coming, how is this more skillful than shooting down a two-seater who never sees you coming?

 

Later in the war when Udet's score took off (spring/summer 1918) he had to contend with far more RFC single-seater scouts swarming over the lines than Richthofen did when he was alive, although Udet did have consistent single-seater victories throughout his career, including the early period. Still, in the five weeks before MvR's death, MvR downed 17 airplanes, of which 12 were single-seat scouts (9 Sopwith Camels, 1 Sopwith Dolphin, 2 SE5as; the others were 1 Biff, 2 RE8s, 2 Big Acks). His last 5 victories were Camels, and I speculate that if it weren't for jammed guns #81 would have been a Camel, too.

 

OVS, I think you are spot-on with your Fonck/MvR comparison. It's no coincidence each was at the top of their respective air force victory lists. Fancy-flying/aerobatics are defensive maneuvers, not offensive.

[OvS 8]

Hello, all,

 

From what I've seen Udet has always been universally regarded as an excellent pilot. Are there those who think otherwise? If so, I'm surprised.

 

As far as skill shooting down two-seaters vs single-seaters, if it was so easy to shoot down two-seaters then why didn't everybody have 80 victories? Especially an excellent pilot who's first victory was 6 months before MvR's first and who's last victory was 6 months after MvR's death? I understand nobody is putting MvR down by comparing his victory list to Udet's, which is good because then they'd also be putting down Allmenröder, Boelcke, Immelmann, LvRichthofen, Schaefer, Voss, Wolff, Ball, Hawker, Lufbery, McCudden, McElroy, etc., all of whom had more two-seater victories than single-seater victories.

 

In my view it was much more dangerous to attack a two-seater--as Udet learned when he was shot down by one (as was possibly MvR, although I can't determine who fired the bullet that wounded him but an FE2d is [iMO] the most likely)--since the preferred attack methodology employed an unseen stern closure, which is more difficult to pull off with an observer/gunner. If you close unseen behind a single-seat scout via Dicta Boelcke and kill the pilot before he sees you coming, how is this more skillful than shooting down a two-seater who never sees you coming?

 

Later in the war when Udet's score took off (spring/summer 1918) he had to contend with far more RFC single-seater scouts swarming over the lines than Richthofen did when he was alive, although Udet did have consistent single-seater victories throughout his career, including the early period. Still, in the five weeks before MvR's death, MvR downed 17 airplanes, of which 12 were single-seat scouts (9 Sopwith Camels, 1 Sopwith Dolphin, 2 SE5as; the others were 1 Biff, 2 RE8s, 2 Big Acks). His last 5 victories were Camels, and I speculate that if it weren't for jammed guns #81 would have been a Camel, too.

 

OVS, I think you are spot-on with your Fonck/MvR comparison. It's no coincidence each was at the top of their respective air force victory lists. Fancy-flying/aerobatics are defensive maneuvers, not offensive.

 

Jim,

 

Has it ever been considered that Udet was not as 'vicious' a pilot as MvR? Udet's goal was to take out the plane, not the pilot, and as we all know, MvR was the opposite.

 

So it stands to say that there could have been more on Udet's kill list than he actually got credit for had his mentality been more forcefull. I give the Udet vs Guynemer duel, where Guynemer released Udet from the mele knowing his guns were jammed. Had that been MvR, or any of the J11 clan, with Guynemer in the position Udet was in, would MvR let him go? I doubt it.

 

MvR was a better fighter pilot than Udet, by the rules of engagement. But Udet really was not a fighter pilot by definition, he lacked that killer instinct and instead felt a good pilot should be able to land a damaged machine, and often left it at that. Udet was really a true pilot in a bloody war.

 

This is another of those debates that offers hours of great speculation... can you imagine if we could somehow simulate MvR vs Udet? That would be incredible!

 

OvS

[Olham 164]

OvS: This is another of those debates that offers hours of great speculation... can you imagine if we could somehow simulate MvR vs Udet? That would be incredible!

 

Well, to start it a bit cheeky: MvR only attacked, when he was sure he could win the fight. So, he wouldn't have attacked Udet.

And Udet would have let him fly off. Just Theory No. 1.

[Bullethead 12]

Quite some flying.

 

But then I noticed over to the right, in the "related videos" section, that there was this one....

 

 

Amazing what an ungodly power-to-weight ratio and immoral amounts of control authority will do for you. Still, this is a trick I need to learn for OFF

 

 

[Wels 2]

Hello Olham,

 

well, if german would be the international language of flight, you would not know what you're missing lol.

 

But a "dead stick landing" is exactly a "Landung mit stehender Latte" (Pilotenjargon), wobei mit Latte der Propeller gemeint ist ahem.

Poor fools they don't know what they're missing without german lol

 

 

Greetings,

Catfish

[Olham 164]

"Landung mit stehender Latte" hatte ich noch nicht gehört. Diese Pilotenbande.

 

But English is probably the best of all languages for aviation (and pop music).

It's shorter than German, mostly one- or two silabel words, whereas German often has three, even four.

[Wels 2]

Hello Olham,

 

"... But English is probably the best of all languages for aviation (and pop music). ..."

 

I also think so, however what the kids listen to nowadays (and in Berlin !) is not too bad .. we saw him live some weks ago

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NxAW2hIgsIg

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Aber der echte Star ist die Band !!

Neue deutsche Welle war auch ganz nett, ist aber schon Jahrhunderte her lol

 

Did find something really bad, but at least with english text translation ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjiiNo9txds&feature=related

 

 

'weia von Ernst Udet zu Fox und Raabe lol, sorry for the OT

 

 

Greetings,

Catfish

Edited October 6, 2009 by Wels

[Hauksbee 103]

While checking the Udet footage, I found another link:

This is the Paul Mantz crash from the first "Flight of the Phoenix". I recall seeing the film as a pup, and lamented to a friend that we never really got a chance to see the cobbled-together Phoenix fly; only a series of quick close-up shots. That's when I found out that it had crashed during the filming. I'd always understood that Mantz had clipped the top of a sand dune with one of the skids. Seems that's not so. Here's the real story. Edited October 6, 2009 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

That reminds me of the "Gotha" bomber in Huges"Hell's Angels" - when they shot it down and it crashed,

that crash was unplanned to happen like that, and it was real. The pyrotechnician in the rear, who ignited

the smoke cartridge, died in that crash.

[Bullethead 12]

That reminds me of the "Gotha" bomber in Huges"Hell's Angels" - when they shot it down and it crashed, that crash was unplanned to happen like that, and it was real. The pyrotechnician in the rear, who ignited the smoke cartridge, died in that crash.

 

Hughs nearly died himself in another crash. One of his stunt pilots refused to do a certain maneuver called for in the script so Hughs tried it himself, and crashed. I believe that footage made its way into the film, too.

[JFM 18]

Hi, OvS,

 

Great post! Sorry for my delay getting back over here.

 

Interesting take that Udet wasn't as aggressive as MvR. You are right, there's no question MvR was deadly serious and quite aggressive. He's often cast as "cowardly" and had pilots "protect him" as he racked up victories, but that's bunk. There are many RFC combat reports that describe MvR's aggressiveness; McCudden, for instance. Plus, it's gleaned in MvR's combat reports, such as when he continually attacks disabled (engine damage) airplanes while gliding. Not very sporting but there's no question of victory with a flamer or in-flight breakup.

 

I'm not an expert on Guynemer but after fighting Udet didn't his combat report reveal he disengaged because he also had a jammed weapon, and the "let Udet go" is romantic fantasy? I believe so but I could be wrong; bringing it up here in case you or someone else is more learned about this (and I'll double check this, too) and can chime in. But had it been MvR attacking (assuming no gun jam) and (somehow) knowing the other guy had jammed weapons? I agree with you, that guy was likely a goner unless he could evade. As it should be in war, IMO, although I concede that's easy to type and I've never been in combat myself. Still, if Guynemer actually did let Udet go, look how many more men died as a result of that. (I know that has nothing to do with your point, with which I agree, I'm just saying.)

 

Olham, I loved your MvR/Udet scenario!

 

 

 

Jim,

 

Has it ever been considered that Udet was not as 'vicious' a pilot as MvR? Udet's goal was to take out the plane, not the pilot, and as we all know, MvR was the opposite.

 

So it stands to say that there could have been more on Udet's kill list than he actually got credit for had his mentality been more forcefull. I give the Udet vs Guynemer duel, where Guynemer released Udet from the mele knowing his guns were jammed. Had that been MvR, or any of the J11 clan, with Guynemer in the position Udet was in, would MvR let him go? I doubt it.

 

MvR was a better fighter pilot than Udet, by the rules of engagement. But Udet really was not a fighter pilot by definition, he lacked that killer instinct and instead felt a good pilot should be able to land a damaged machine, and often left it at that. Udet was really a true pilot in a bloody war.

 

This is another of those debates that offers hours of great speculation... can you imagine if we could somehow simulate MvR vs Udet? That would be incredible!

 

OvS

[Wels 2]

Hello,

while it is true that Udet was not a born fighter pilot, he quickly adapted to it. He said he would have had problems shooting down so-called enemies in the beginning of his career. He was officially criticized for being too reluctant, and let damaged enemies limp home, or just did not attack them at all.

It was later known that such things happened indeed now and then, still in WW2. The story of "Ye olde pub" is one of them, but such stories were disliked by superior officers, very much like this christmas truce in 1914 in the trenches, and the witnessing people ordered not to talk about it.

Udet then aimed at the engine, not the pilot. But additionally to the wear and tear of a war going on and taking its toll on all soldiers, it was the realization that his own comrades died, being shot down by the "enemy", that he began to shoot down enemies as "efficiently" as possible. But he was not a "hunter", like MvR, or at least not a "born" one.

You cannot be sure what really happened, since some former ww1 pilots sometimes showed off and idealized themselves, and Udet was certainly a great self-exposer, but there seems to be some truth in what he said. After a meeting with some former french enemies in the 1920ies people were astonished to hear from the french guests, that Udet was well known, and that french aviators had indeed witnessed his behaviour. They were, as german and english ones, told to shut up about such occurrences.

Greetings,

Catfish

[Cameljockey 3]

Bullethead, that video was debunked as a fake long ago. If you want to see a real looney toon, watch this guy. I witnessed this routine at the MCAS Beaufort Airshow in May.

 

Just try staying on his six!

Edited October 9, 2009 by Cameljockey

[Olham 164]

He couldn't do that with 2 Spandaus and 1.000 rounds on bord - I just tried it. And failed.

[Guest British_eh]

RAF" Here's about as close as I can get with an OFF Camel, landing it dead stick with full left rudder.

 

Good show RAF. I'll try with my Dr.1, although the Camel is just as twitchy.

 

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh