Luftwaffe marking question...

[Wrench 9,848]

In particular, this is directed to StGs in North Africa....

 

It seems the StGs carried their lettering;

 

T6+AM

 

on the uselage, where the 3rd letter is the individual call for each aircraft

 

The question is: did they carry the individual call letter under the wing? Sommat like this:

 

+ A

 

None of the pictures/profiles and such that I've got in my various and sundry books on the Stuka in NA seem to show it (in particular in the time of the retreat from Benghazi west to Tripoli, and during Torch and the departure from Africa).

 

btw, this is for a new variant based off the B, with LOTS of fixes. Eventually, I'll apply them the B and release an update, as it's sadly in need of some tweeking (don't even get me started on the lights....)

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+Gepard 11,295]

I think i have everywhere something about this subject. It is in an old german air magazin from the 80th. Will try to find it.

[jet_spud 0]

Wrench, have you got any of the old profile publications - they had every view possible and in colour too? They have been around for years and years, and came as little booklets or volumed compilation sets. Every aerojumble in the UK always has boxes of them. Doesn't help you much though I guess - especially as no jumbles here for quite a while.

 

I've ferreted around in my collection of the compilations and guess what - no Ju87.

[+Crusader 2,101]

In particular, this is directed to StGs in North Africa....

 

It seems the StGs carried their lettering;

 

T6+AM

 

on the uselage, where the 3rd letter is the individual call for each aircraft

 

The question is: did they carry the individual call letter under the wing? Sommat like this:

 

+ A

 

None of the pictures/profiles and such that I've got in my various and sundry books on the Stuka in NA seem to show it (in particular in the time of the retreat from Benghazi west to Tripoli, and during Torch and the departure from Africa).

 

btw, this is for a new variant based off the B, with LOTS of fixes. Eventually, I'll apply them the B and release an update, as it's sadly in need of some tweeking (don't even get me started on the lights....)

 

wrench

kevin stein

 

Yes, usually under the left wing , A + M

sometimes the "first two" under the right wing , T + 6

 

So when you watch the Stuka from below, nose pointing up, a complete set of markings could be T + 6 A + M

 

Losses have been so high though, that not all aircraft (especially replacements) received a full set of underwing codes.. or, as I have seen on photos, repaired aircraft ( wing taked from another) still carried the previous code on the wing underside...

 

~

[+Gepard 11,295]

Its typical if you starts a search the thing that you are looking for is nearly the last you get into the hand. My search starts in the air magazin Fliegerrevue 1/80 and the article i was looking for was in 3/88.

 

Okay, what i have found out.

 

The markings of the german bombers was a two digit code before and a two digit code after the barcross. The first two digits was the designation code of the Geschwader. This code consist of letter and number.

The two digits after the cross were letters. The first letter was the "Flugzeugkennbuchstabe" aircraftdesignationletter. This letter had different colors. White for the 1.Staffel of a Gruppe, Red for the 2.Staffel of a Gruppe, Yellow for the 3.Staffel of a Gruppe.

The letter itself designates the number of the plane in a Staffel

A = first plane

B= second plane

C= third plane and so on

The last letter gave the position of the plane in a Geschwader.

A=Geschwaderstab

B=Stab I. Gruppe

C= Stab II.Gruppe

D= Stab III.Gruppe

F= Stab IV. Gruppe

G= Stab V. Gruppe

H= 1.Staffel

K= 2.Staffel

L= 3.Staffel

M= 4.Staffel

N= 5.Staffel

P=6.Staffel

R=7.Staffel

S=8.Staffel

T=9.Staffel

U=10.Staffel

V=11.Staffel

W=12.Staffel

X=13.Staffel

Y=14.Staffel

Z=15.Staffel

Q=16.Staffel

J=17.Staffel

O=18.Staffel

E=19.Staffel

I=20.Staffel

 

 

As an Example 9K+CP (red C) means

9K = KG51

red C = 3.plane of the 2.Staffel of the Gruppe

P= 6.Staffel

 

 

Fighters:

planes of a Staffel have the numbers 1 to 12

1., 4. and 7. Staffel have white numbers

2.,5. and 8. Staffel have red numbers

3.,6. and 9.Staffel have yellow numbers

First Gruppe of a Geschwader have no sign

Second Gruppe of a Geschwader have a horizinal bar after the cross

Third Gruppe of a Geschwader has a vertical bar after the cross.(sometime a ~ Symbol)

Leaders of a Gruppe have a < symbol before the cross.

 

 

I hope this will help

Edited November 18, 2009 by Gepard

[Wrench 9,848]

Thanks to you all!

 

I think this deserves to be stickied, as SOMEBODY (most likely me) will wind up having to go looking for it again!!!

 

wrench

kevin stein

[+LloydNB 212]

But what about the Ju-88?

 

Most of the pictures I've seen only show the individual aircraft letter on both outer parts of the underwings eg A+ and +A. When was this syle of marking introduced and was it universal or only found in particular units? I'm confused.

 

Lloyd

[+Gepard 11,295]

It depends on the time the photo was taken. From beginning 1942 when the losses, especially at the Ostfront were rising, the field repair units often took parts of various damaged planes to make one flyable. So the designation system starts to become confuse.

[ndicki 22]

A further four-letter set was the Stammkennzeichen, or factory delivery code. This was painted on pre-delivery aircraft on the fuselage only for single engined monoplane fighters, but on the fuselage and under the wings on other aircraft, including single-engined dive bombers such as the Ju87. On the fuselage you would get AB+CD, while under the wings, A+B C+D. If there is a discrepancy between what you see on the fuselage of an operational (dive/level) bomber and under the wings, that is often the explanation.

 

On fighters, not to be confused with such things as Reconnaissance unit markings; they also used Bf109s, but which carried four letter codes.

[ndicki 22]

And there was a reshuffle within the organisation of bomber (Ju87) units when the number of Staffeln in a Gruppe passed from three to four, and the number of Gruppen in a Geschwader passed from four to five... It gets complicated, like everything else in the Luftwaffe!

[33LIMA 972]

There is no substiture for relying on an actual photo of the aircraft or unit you're representing.

 

A quick look at my Monogram 'LW camouflage & Markings' vol 2 shows an undated pic of some He111H6 s of KG26 in 70/71/65, no theatre markings, and the nearest aircraft, 1H+CH, clearly has the full code under the wings, 1+H C+H.

 

A colour profile of Ju87B2 2F+CA, said to be used by KG54 (!) in N Africa has 79 with 80 blotches, 65 below, and is shown by the artist with no letters under the wings (Monogram's research would be i think considered more reliable than Profile's) . A colour 2-view of Ju87B2 T6+BM of StG2 in N Africa - in in temperate 70/71/65 scheme - is shown with no letters under wings, individual letter B in white on the front of each wheel spat, and strangely, a painted-out letter C on the upper wings both sides outboard of the cross. A photo of wrecked Bf110F 3U+GS of 8/ZG26 near Fuka in 79/65, dated 13 Nov 42, has the red 'G' under the lower wings outboard of the cross. Ju88A L1+DN of 5/LG1 photographed in Sicily during 1941, in 70/71/65 with white theatre band, also has the individual letter 'D' under each wing in the usual position, outboard of the cross.

 

Most odd is a pic of a 70/71/65 Ju87B2, undated and unit n/k, which has the individual letter C behind the LH fuselage cross, no other fuselage letters visible, but has TWO (individual?) letters outboard of the left wing's lower-sufrace cross, a large L next to the cross and then a smaller A nearer the wingtip - the authors speculate this may have been a plane that changed units several times.

 

A pic of a nosed-over Ju-87D1/Trop WNr 2396, S7+KS of 8/StG3, captioned as shot sown by Allied fighters on 1 Nov 42, is in 70/71/65, white theatre band, and has the 'factory' Stammkenzeichen radio code under the wings, +MO being visible in black under the port wing.

 

The Ju88A Profile Publication has a 5-view colour profile of 5K+DC of II/KG3 in N Russia Summer' 41, with D in black under each wing outboard of the cross. The colour profiles mostly have the same arrangement, including two African Ju88s, L1+EH of 1/LG1 in Benghazi, 1942, and 7A+LH of 1 St (F)/121, Martuba, also in libya, 1942, both in 79/65. The artist's rendition of the letter E under the wing of L1+EH is confirmed in a pic of the plane crash-landed.

 

The Ju87B Profile has a 5-view of S2+AM of 4/StG 77 in 70 or 71/65 (should be 70/17/65?) said to be in France 1940 (but with yellow cowl & rudder, more likely to be in the Balkans in 1941?) plus two African Ju87B2s; first, in 79 with 80 blotches, 65 below, is S7+HL of 3/Stg3 at Derna 1942; also 1/StG3's S7+IH at Daba 1942, both represented with the individual letter in black outboard of the underwing crosses.

 

Overall, most common - relying on photos rather than artist's interpretations which can be wrong - seems to be the either the individual letter only OR no letter at all, in all Theatres. All four letters seem quite rare. Rarest are factory codes rather than unit ones, or multiple or overpainted letters. Some bombers including Stukas I recall having seen with individual letters in a light colour on the outer tops of wings but this is also rare, methinks.

 

Another source would be the Osprey "Stuka Units of the Med", I have the cut-back DelPrado issue about somewhere, IIRC it had some Desert Stuka colour profiles.

Edited April 18, 2011 by 33LIMA