General AI combat routine observations.

[Siggi 10]

I've read that the AI is being worked on for the upcoming addon (or P4), and comments were invited on that and other stuff (can't remember which thread).

 

Ok, a general observation on something I hope can be improved...

 

I've been doing a hell of a lot of QC over the last couple of days. Something I'm finding is that a lot of a/c, at low level, are still doing this up and down yo-yoing. And it's not just at low level, the AI likes to do this climb and stall at all other altitudes too. This has settled into a common routine, where one chases an AI around until he finally climbs, hangs at the top and allows me to pour bucketloads into him, then he falls away.

 

My general conclusion is that the AI places a huge emphasis on vertical maneouvers that the planes cannot really handle. The overall result is that there is a marked lack of the horizontal/linear dynamic in combat. From altitude one might expect the planes to try turning (they do) and then diving (they do), but in almost all cases the combat ends when they stupidly point their noses high into the sky and cop the packet as they stall and fall away.

 

I have no idea how this could be handled, but I'll give it a shot...is there a way to instruct all AI that they must not point their noses higher than a certain degree under a certain airspeed for a specified length of time? Or just never to point their noses higher than a certain degree? If that means they end up in a sustained shallow climb when close to the ground, that would be an improvement. Sitting duck, yes, but more immersive than the absurd yo-yo. Maybe if the AI were made not to want to dive so close to the ground so quickly too...?

 

What I'd like to see at low level is the AI trying to run for it at tree-top height...a horizontal chase. Turns yes, but the climb & stall, yuck.

 

I'm guessing that CFS3's air-combat AI is very crude, or at least doesn't translate very well to slow WW1 planes? However, I've seen He-111s pulling the same crappy maneouvers (yo-yo), so I'm thinking it's just crappy CFS AI.

 

I'm fully aware that you devs must have pulled hair already over this issue, AI code that allows only A, B and C, when it needs D, E and F too. How do you allow it vertical maneouvers at altitude that don't translate into climb & stall up there, and turn into yo-yo down low. Hmm...a proper bugger. And no doubt this isn't handled by a global file but has to be tweaked for each individual a/c.

 

Anyway, to summarize...more horizontal, less vertical?

[Siggi 10]

Added notes.

 

Hmm. I've just tried out 1 vs 1 (Tripe vs Dr1), rookie then ace. Both the fights were top notch. The rookie ended up in a medium turn at altitude, until I pasted him, then he tried to escape in a shallow dive. He died in his cockpit.

 

The ace used vertical maneouvers, without stalling, corkscrew dives, a whole range of good stuff, until he got to the deck, then did some weird stuff (flying like a UFO for a brief period, flying as if the top-plan of the a/c was it's nose), then back to normal. No issues to complain about on the whole.

 

Now do a 6 vs 6 (AI on random), and the AI get to the deck and go into yo-yo mode.

 

So I'm now thinking, is this yo-yo stuff, climb & stall etc, the AI going into some kind of 'idle' mode because the CPU can't handle too many planes at once?

Edited December 2, 2009 by Siggi

[+Winder 32]

Added notes.

 

Hmm. I've just tried out 1 vs 1 (Tripe vs Dr1), rookie then ace. Both the fights were top notch. The rookie ended up in a medium turn at altitude, until I pasted him, then he tried to escape in a shallow dive. He died in his cockpit.

 

The ace used vertical maneouvers, without stalling, corkscrew dives, a whole range of good stuff, until he got to the deck, then did some weird stuff (flying like a UFO for a brief period, flying as if the top-plan of the a/c was it's nose), then back to normal. No issues to complain about on the whole.

 

Now do a 6 vs 6 (AI on random), and the AI get to the deck and go into yo-yo mode.

 

So I'm now thinking, is this yo-yo stuff, climb & stall etc, the AI going into some kind of 'idle' mode because the CPU can't handle too many planes at once?

 

 

Its actually even more complex than what you have alluded to so far - but without saying too much, if anything, the AI in P4 should be awesome......simply awesome....

 

But its still in development - relax play P3......its still better than most.

 

 

WM

[Siggi 10]

Its actually even more complex than what you have alluded to so far - but without saying too much, if anything, the AI in P4 should be awesome......simply awesome....

 

But its still in development - relax play P3......its still better than most.

 

 

WM

 

Ah, it's playable alright. QC isn't very representitive of the average campaign engagement anyway, so these issues don't come up very much where it actually matters. Plus the Tripe (Sopwith) is a real killer against which the AI don't have much of a chance anyway, rookie or ace. But you know us rabid simmers...

Edited December 2, 2009 by Siggi

[Pike Bishop 0]

Dear All,

I do notice that this yo-yoing is quite prominent but I also notice that it happens often as one pulls round in a steep turn to get on the enemy's tail......your speed is then low....so when the target pulls up like that you have to be careful of stalling, so I am not sure if they are programmed to do that at that time. Secondly, what I find a bit of a problem is that when you are fired upon, it seems to me that even though you are responding by, for instance, pulling a tighter turn, you still seem to be in the AI attackers arc of fire. As a result considerable damage is done because nomatter how I manoeuvre rounds continue to hit me before I can extricate my aircraft from this arc (including the time looking around and behind for the attacker). I am not sure by how much this tallies with machine gun rates of fire versus snap manoeuvres and general buffeting/jinking. However I fly the SE5a exclusively and this machine seems to be a little slow in the roll, so perhaps it is that rather than the ?(oversized)? arc of fire for the AI but I still think that they hit you for too long when you are attempting an evasive manoeuvre. As I said once, a few years ago now, I would rather see aircraft returning with lots of holes without severe control impairments than lots of crashes with a few holes.

Best regards,

Pike.

[Siggi 10]

Dear All,

I do notice that this yo-yoing is quite prominent but I also notice that it happens often as one pulls round in a steep turn to get on the enemy's tail......your speed is then low....so when the target pulls up like that you have to be careful of stalling, so I am not sure if they are programmed to do that at that time. Secondly, what I find a bit of a problem is that when you are fired upon, it seems to me that even though you are responding by, for instance, pulling a tighter turn, you still seem to be in the AI attackers arc of fire. As a result considerable damage is done because nomatter how I manoeuvre rounds continue to hit me before I can extricate my aircraft from this arc (including the time looking around and behind for the attacker). I am not sure by how much this tallies with machine gun rates of fire versus snap manoeuvres and general buffeting/jinking. However I fly the SE5a exclusively and this machine seems to be a little slow in the roll, so perhaps it is that rather than the ?(oversized)? arc of fire for the AI but I still think that they hit you for too long when you are attempting an evasive manoeuvre. As I said once, a few years ago now, I would rather see aircraft returning with lots of holes without severe control impairments than lots of crashes with a few holes.

Best regards,

Pike.

 

When I'm on the tail of an ea I can yaw a hell of a lot with my rudder and keep the fire on target even when he's making a good turn. I see the AI doing the same, that even as I turn and they're coming at me their nose stays pointed in my direction. Then it'll suddenly point away and they pass outside of my turn. It doesn't always happen though, so I'm guessing it's down to rookie/ace AI status.

[Olham 164]

Winder; man of short hints for things to come. Sounds very promising!

 

But don't make them all fly like aces, please - I'm pretty sure, that the majority

of fighter pilots didn't live long enough to become really good.

[Pike Bishop 0]

Dear Siggi,

As I said I don't know about the programming side but with the radii of turn or turn rates I think that once a turn is initiated by a more manoeuvreable aircraft, the pilot's ability to move out of the arc would be rapid.........so the attackers shots would go wide quite quickly (I don't have the data to hand but I have worked them all out in the past and am certain that because the radii are tight, at close range the arc of fire would be narrow). Obviously it would be less narrow at medium and long range, but hitting power is reduced. Even if both aircraft are turning at the same time reacting to a tighter turn rate would be enough to cause hesitation by the attacker, and subsequent realignment......G loading adding to the difficulty. I will test your idea out and see if the AI behave similar to as you describe. But as I see it at the moment as soon as you are in and E/A's sights you have little chance of surviving the combat. I recall one of the other problems that was addressed was the long range at which AI aircraft fired, but that appears to have been solved. Now it seems to me, they fire at closer ranges but fire a continuous burst which one cannot evade easily.

Best regards,

Pike.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Pike Bishop

[Rickitycrate 10]

Its actually even more complex than what you have alluded to so far - but without saying too much, if anything, the AI in P4 should be awesome......simply awesome....

 

But its still in development - relax play P3......its still better than most.

 

 

WM

Winder, encouraging comment. You must have made some progress. I can't imagine all the work that goes into the programming. Thanks for your approach in asking for feedback and communicating some of the developments to us. I think P4 will be awesome indeed because OBD is awesome. I see many devs that are aloof and uncommunicative and have a tone of talking down to the customer/user. May I encourage you to keep the course and know that your efforts are greatly appreciated by many. Best wishes, Jim

[Siggi 10]

Dear Siggi,

As I said I don't know about the programming side but with the radii of turn or turn rates I think that once a turn is initiated by a more manoeuvreable aircraft, the pilot's ability to move out of the arc would be rapid.........so the attackers shots would go wide quite quickly (I don't have the data to hand but I have worked them all out in the past and am certain that because the radii are tight, at close range the arc of fire would be narrow). Obviously it would be less narrow at medium and long range, but hitting power is reduced. Even if both aircraft are turning at the same time reacting to a tighter turn rate would be enough to cause hesitation by the attacker, and subsequent realignment......G loading adding to the difficulty. I will test your idea out and see if the AI behave similar to as you describe. But as I see it at the moment as soon as you are in and E/A's sights you have little chance of surviving the combat. I recall one of the other problems that was addressed was the long range at which AI aircraft fired, but that appears to have been solved. Now it seems to me, they fire at closer ranges but fire a continuous burst which one cannot evade easily.

Best regards,

Pike.

 

I've avoided fire from 6 o'clock, even when I've reacted after they've already started firing. On other occasions I've had the experience of getting hammered even well after initiating a tight turn. I would certainly not consider the AI is getting to cheat in that regard (not saying that's your viewpoint). I think a lot of it is down to the skill-level of the AI on your six. If he's a rookie he won't be hard to avoid, but if he's an ace he's going to keep his nose at you no matter what you do, up to a point. Just like we can against them (the AI).

[Creaghorn 10]

Winder; man of short hints for things to come. Sounds very promising!

 

But don't make them all fly like aces, please - I'm pretty sure, that the majority

of fighter pilots didn't live long enough to become really good.

 

IMHO AI should be that good that i'm "forced" beeing the majority. one of the ordinary pilots and let the aces be aces.

strange thing about sims is one always automatically considers himself beeing part of the ace minority and AI more or less victims. BHAH is on a good way to give the simmer the feeling that I'm not automatically one of the aces when living long enough though it can be improved. if AI is good enough i'll be one usual pilot with a handful kills and the aces can still be admired.

 

the vast majority of pilots who survived the war, did that without ever getting aces status. but they survived and were good enough to survive. beeing a good pilot is not expressed in the number of kills but not getting killed, and that's one of the biggest differences between sims and real. and that should also be the case for AI.

 

some keypoints would improved it.

most important, both sides have to retreat after a while because of different reasons. that's the most important thing.

in real you had dogfights of 20 aircraft involved at once but only one or two where shot down, IF any. that was the usual dogfight. they did not shoot down 20 down.

 

the usual pilot was 99% busy staying alive, 1% for hunting others, like boxers who in 99% cover their chin and body and 1% for throwing punches because he didn't want to run into a punch himself. in sims it's mostly vice versa. for simmers and AI.

it should be that simmer and AI look 99% for staying alive

[Fortiesboy 3]

Its actually even more complex than what you have alluded to so far - but without saying too much, if anything, the AI in P4 should be awesome......simply awesome....

 

But its still in development - relax play P3......its still better than most.

 

 

WM

 

In another post I have made the same point which Siggi has made here. I also think Pike Bishop has made a valid comment too. I know exactly how he feels-lol.

 

But the best post in this thread is the above one. To have the words AI and awesome in the same sentence from the "creator" is really whetting my appetite.

 

Doing AI right must be the hardest thing to attempt in a combat sim. Must be damned impossible really- Which is why so many only want to fly online in human v human.

 

But the history of OFF is that it has always improved in each version- so, roll on the next!

[carrick58 23]

In another post I have made the same point which Siggi has made here. I also think Pike Bishop has made a valid comment too. I know exactly how he feels-lol.

 

But the best post in this thread is the above one. To have the words AI and awesome in the same sentence from the "creator" is really whetting my appetite.

 

Doing AI right must be the hardest thing to attempt in a combat sim. Must be damned impossible really- Which is why so many only want to fly online in human v human.

 

But the history of OFF is that it has always improved in each version- so, roll on the next!

 

 

If they take away the YO YOING, I will never get any kills

[ConradB 0]

Thanks Winder for the input on the AI!

 

My observations as P3 stands,

 

The AI aren't affected by the elements, i.e. wind and gusts, in and around clouds.

 

They seem to be unaffected by altitude as I am. In the performance of their planes compared to mine, my side and the opposition. Especially at altitude, where I have to go to full throttle to stay in the air, and they just bob up and down like we are at ground level.

 

They can perform manouevers that I try and wind up stalling into a spin. Even my own squadmates can pull a verticle hang on the prop from level flight, and I need to go into a shallow dive, but still can't get the same performance.

 

I guess in comparison to the Ai in general, it feels like the player is "hamstrung" in all areas of aircraft performance. From agility, to power.

 

This is not a critisism of the efforts of the Dev Team in any way what-so-ever, as I understand that there is a lot that goes into it, from watching the advancements over the past years that went into BoBII. But over the years it has been getting sorted out, and so will OFF.

 

And I want to again thank everyone who has endeavoered to take on this monumental task for the sake of a WWI simulator, to keep the spirit of early aviation and air combat alive for us to enjoy.

[Flyby PC 23]

While on the subject of AI manouvres, would it be possible to create an AI target that doesn't react until it comes under fire? Be nice to simulate a pilot being caught napping, allowing you to sneak up, but then he suddenly dives away, - as if he's only just seen you.

 

 

I'd love to dive into a flight of aircraft, and watch them break formation 'realistically'.

 

 

Be even cooler if the 'secret' was transferrable to CFS3, especially for a nightfighter. If a bomber actually 'corkscrewed' to escape a nightfighter attack, it would be a massive step forward in realism. (Especially if you have a thing for Mosquitos err, timber built De Havillands, cough, cough).

 

 

I sort of know the short answer is 'no', but you guys are the masters, and if it can be done, I'll bet you're already there....

[Bullethead 12]

The AI aren't affected by the elements, i.e. wind and gusts, in and around clouds.

 

I don't see any real difference here anymore. When P3 1st came out, the clouds were horrible, plane-eating monsters, at least to humans. They have since been tamed, however, so IMHO that's now a wash. Also in P3, there aren't really any short-term gusts, just sudden changes in the long-term strength and direction of the wind. This seems to affect the AI as much as me, or at least if it doesn't, it doesn't make a noticeable difference.

 

They seem to be unaffected by altitude as I am. In the performance of their planes compared to mine, my side and the opposition. Especially at altitude, where I have to go to full throttle to stay in the air, and they just bob up and down like we are at ground level.

 

Are you talking about your own wingmen or the enemy? Altitude performance is very much a function of the specific plane--some handle it much better than others. So say you're an Albatros pilot who is used to having way more macho than Pups, but all your fights so far have been at 10,000' and below. Then one day you meet Pups at 16,000' and they're swooping around while you're gasping for breath. That happens in the game and is what happened in real life, so no problem there.

 

OTOH, if you're gasping for breath and your AI wingmen are zipping around like at sea level, then that would be a legit problem. I haven't seen that happen, however.

 

They can perform manouevers that I try and wind up stalling into a spin. Even my own squadmates can pull a verticle hang on the prop from level flight, and I need to go into a shallow dive, but still can't get the same performance.

 

AI pilots have the ability, at least at the higher pilot skill levels, to get the ABSOLUTE max performance out of their rides. They can be set to know EXACTLY where the edge of the flight envelope is for any given regime and to hold 0.0001whatever units just on the safe side of it. I'm convinced OFF has such an AI, at least for the aces. It can do things I usually can't, but I've never seen it do things that are blatantly impossible and which I know I could do at least once in a while if I wasn't drunk. But even sober, us ham-fisted humans can try for that level of perfection but, at best, even with lots of practice, we can only approach but will never quite reach it. The best AIs will always beat us in pure stick-and-rudder work. IOW, if the game was merely about performing a set pattern of aerobatic maneuvers judged on the circularity of the loops and the sharpness of the 4-point rolls, etc., the top-end AIs would win every single time because they can do them perfectly and we can't.

 

Humans beat such AIs in combat, however, by knowing or inventing countertactics, by spotting patterns in its behavior over repeated exposure no matter how often we die, etc. AIs, no matter how good they are at pure flying, only have a limited bag of tricks. There will always be some move for which they have no effective answer, or some move you can use to exploit some habit of theirs.

 

Anyway, the more I fly OFF, the less super-human the AI looks in terms of what it can do with its plane compared to what I can do. In those planes that I fly the most, I can now do almost everything I've seen the AI do. Not quite all the moves, and I still screw some of the more extreme ones up fairly regularly, but I chalk that up to the AI having better control and built-in consistency, as opposed to super powers. So at the bottom line, and I hope you don't take offense here, if the AI is flying circles around you, I submit that you either don't have enough experience in your chosen ride.

 

While on the subject of AI manouvres, would it be possible to create an AI target that doesn't react until it comes under fire?

 

That's already in the game. I've bounced quite a few AI flights. It's even possible to make quick diving passes, even killing the AI tail-end Charilie as you go by, and have the AI not notice, so you can repeat the process.

[+Polovski 424]

Guys we are well aware of the good and bad points of the AI. There are many more good points than bad, and even with any bad bits it is still one of the best AI's out there. P4 well is P4 :).

[Olham 164]

My 2 cents: as long as no one manages to survive even only one year

in this war, and most even can't make 17 hours, the AI can't be bad.

 

Today I watched a fight between four Albatros and three Triplanes, and it

was great fun to watch, how well everyone was turning!

And yesterday, I had a sortie with Gontermann and Udet. Udet smoked a

cheeky SPAD in seconds; later he cleared my tail - great!

[Dej 17]

I don't see any real difference here anymore. When P3 1st came out, the clouds were horrible, plane-eating monsters, at least to humans. They have since been tamed, however, so IMHO that's now a wash. Also in P3, there aren't really any short-term gusts, just sudden changes in the long-term strength and direction of the wind. This seems to affect the AI as much as me, or at least if it doesn't, it doesn't make a noticeable difference.

 

 

 

Are you talking about your own wingmen or the enemy? Altitude performance is very much a function of the specific plane--some handle it much better than others. So say you're an Albatros pilot who is used to having way more macho than Pups, but all your fights so far have been at 10,000' and below. Then one day you meet Pups at 16,000' and they're swooping around while you're gasping for breath. That happens in the game and is what happened in real life, so no problem there.

 

OTOH, if you're gasping for breath and your AI wingmen are zipping around like at sea level, then that would be a legit problem. I haven't seen that happen, however.

 

 

 

AI pilots have the ability, at least at the higher pilot skill levels, to get the ABSOLUTE max performance out of their rides. They can be set to know EXACTLY where the edge of the flight envelope is for any given regime and to hold 0.0001whatever units just on the safe side of it. I'm convinced OFF has such an AI, at least for the aces. It can do things I usually can't, but I've never seen it do things that are blatantly impossible and which I know I could do at least once in a while if I wasn't drunk. But even sober, us ham-fisted humans can try for that level of perfection but, at best, even with lots of practice, we can only approach but will never quite reach it. The best AIs will always beat us in pure stick-and-rudder work. IOW, if the game was merely about performing a set pattern of aerobatic maneuvers judged on the circularity of the loops and the sharpness of the 4-point rolls, etc., the top-end AIs would win every single time because they can do them perfectly and we can't.

 

Humans beat such AIs in combat, however, by knowing or inventing countertactics, by spotting patterns in its behavior over repeated exposure no matter how often we die, etc. AIs, no matter how good they are at pure flying, only have a limited bag of tricks. There will always be some move for which they have no effective answer, or some move you can use to exploit some habit of theirs.

 

Anyway, the more I fly OFF, the less super-human the AI looks in terms of what it can do with its plane compared to what I can do. In those planes that I fly the most, I can now do almost everything I've seen the AI do. Not quite all the moves, and I still screw some of the more extreme ones up fairly regularly, but I chalk that up to the AI having better control and built-in consistency, as opposed to super powers. So at the bottom line, and I hope you don't take offense here, if the AI is flying circles around you, I submit that you either don't have enough experience in your chosen ride.

 

 

 

That's already in the game. I've bounced quite a few AI flights. It's even possible to make quick diving passes, even killing the AI tail-end Charilie as you go by, and have the AI not notice, so you can repeat the process.

 

Good post BH. I've come to appreciate your views on things as you've been so often proven correct (not meant to sound patronising - I really have). Sometimes my measure of the AI allows me to win but more often my experience definitely confirms your penultimate point, that I'm not as good an airmen as other sims (and earlier versions of OFF) had led me to believe. Certainly not at full DiD, anyway.

[ConradB 0]

I don't see any real difference here anymore. When P3 1st came out, the clouds were horrible, plane-eating monsters, at least to humans. They have since been tamed, however, so IMHO that's now a wash. Also in P3, there aren't really any short-term gusts, just sudden changes in the long-term strength and direction of the wind. This seems to affect the AI as much as me, or at least if it doesn't, it doesn't make a noticeable difference.

 

 

 

Are you talking about your own wingmen or the enemy? Altitude performance is very much a function of the specific plane--some handle it much better than others. So say you're an Albatros pilot who is used to having way more macho than Pups, but all your fights so far have been at 10,000' and below. Then one day you meet Pups at 16,000' and they're swooping around while you're gasping for breath. That happens in the game and is what happened in real life, so no problem there.

 

OTOH, if you're gasping for breath and your AI wingmen are zipping around like at sea level, then that would be a legit problem. I haven't seen that happen, however.

 

 

 

AI pilots have the ability, at least at the higher pilot skill levels, to get the ABSOLUTE max performance out of their rides. They can be set to know EXACTLY where the edge of the flight envelope is for any given regime and to hold 0.0001whatever units just on the safe side of it. I'm convinced OFF has such an AI, at least for the aces. It can do things I usually can't, but I've never seen it do things that are blatantly impossible and which I know I could do at least once in a while if I wasn't drunk. But even sober, us ham-fisted humans can try for that level of perfection but, at best, even with lots of practice, we can only approach but will never quite reach it. The best AIs will always beat us in pure stick-and-rudder work. IOW, if the game was merely about performing a set pattern of aerobatic maneuvers judged on the circularity of the loops and the sharpness of the 4-point rolls, etc., the top-end AIs would win every single time because they can do them perfectly and we can't.

 

Humans beat such AIs in combat, however, by knowing or inventing countertactics, by spotting patterns in its behavior over repeated exposure no matter how often we die, etc. AIs, no matter how good they are at pure flying, only have a limited bag of tricks. There will always be some move for which they have no effective answer, or some move you can use to exploit some habit of theirs.

 

Anyway, the more I fly OFF, the less super-human the AI looks in terms of what it can do with its plane compared to what I can do. In those planes that I fly the most, I can now do almost everything I've seen the AI do. Not quite all the moves, and I still screw some of the more extreme ones up fairly regularly, but I chalk that up to the AI having better control and built-in consistency, as opposed to super powers. So at the bottom line, and I hope you don't take offense here, if the AI is flying circles around you, I submit that you either don't have enough experience in your chosen ride.

 

 

 

That's already in the game. I've bounced quite a few AI flights. It's even possible to make quick diving passes, even killing the AI tail-end Charilie as you go by, and have the AI not notice, so you can repeat the process.

 

Thanks for the reply Bullethead.

 

The wind issue with the plane getting shredded even in close proximity to a cloud is much better than P1 & 2, this is very obvious. It just appears like the AI are unaffected by it even if they go straight through it. It may just be me.

 

The AI at altitude is both squadmates and enemies. Flying Albatros Fighters, SPADs, and even the lighter planes like the Pups, and Neuiports, my own plane seems like I'm dragging an anchor compared to again my own squadmates. If I fly againts them, the AI seems to be able to perform kickbutt manouevers, if I fly against them, but if I switch sides and try the lighter plane, I still can't get the same performance out of the plane. It's like, how should I put it, ummmmmmmmmm, I can't whip the plane around like they do, and have to keep to shallow turns and light light elevator inputs, or the plane stalls off and down I go, which leaves me easy meat for the opposition. It's almost like they have superchargers even though I know they don't. One thing I have been toying with, is reducing the petrol loadout before each mission. So for instance if the entire flight calls for say a total of 40 miles round trip, I will load out enough petrol for twice the distance, which seems to help, so I am going to try and lighten the load a little more by loading enough petrol for 1.5 times the distance, but I don't want to run out of fuel before I return to base. That wouldn't be a good thing.

 

While performing combat manouevers, what I'm seeing is things like planes that I should be able to turn inside of, ain't doin' so swell. If I back off the throttle from 100%, the controls get mushy, and the plane wants to drop out of the sky, where there should be some throttle control for you to be able to operate between 75 and 100 % power settings to pull off some turns or slips, instead of immediately wanting to stall and spin. Again it could just be me. The other thing that feels odd is the rudder input. It doesn't seem fluid in it's application. The yaw feels wierd compared to planes I've flown, al-be-it they are more modern types, accept for the Stearman trainer I got a chance to take the controls in when I was younger. And it was a nice hour flight even doing some basic stall turns and standin' her on her side and kicking opposite rudder to maintain altitude, and loops and rolls as usual. Again that plane was about 20 years newer than what we have in the game. Oh, I almost forgot, has anyone been able to do a flat turn with the DrI? The rudder doesn't seem to swing the nose around like it should. Which the DrI was noted for as it had no fin, just the rudder. Unless someone has a trick to getting her to skid around.

 

Don't worry, I don't take offense. My hide's pretty thick, just like my skull from time to time. I like having a good exchange as long as things stay civil. Besides, it's a Q&A issue and you're trying to help from your own experience. That's cool bro.

 

But that's how everybody here has been even from the P1 & 2 days. Even as lurker, I could find everything I needed from all the info the Devs and the more experienced folks posted.

 

So if it's just a matter of getting used to this one, it's all good.

 

Thanks again Bullet!

[Pike Bishop 0]

Dear Creaghorn,

I must say that your comments about "just staying alive" instantly made me think of the times that I have been paintballing, and attempts by people in our group to rally and charge the enemy.....as we cower behind oil drums.......no-one moves because getting shot bloody hurts!! So, with regard to the realism factor, this game is certainly one of the best. Clearly there is a fine balance in making a game as real as possible and making it as playable as possible at the same time. This "simulation has come the closest yet in my eyes. Every time I go up my mouth is as dry as a bone and many times I have 'run away to live to fight another day'. But of course to spend the majority of your time doing this will ultimately be boring so we must seek combat every mission instead of 'tactically avoiding'(I.E. running away) combat which of course real life was not like. Many missions must have taken place where the enemy were never seen at all. However, for me that may be a good thing because I am becoming old slow and my eyes are not so good....... boy do I notice it (I have my freedom pass now which, in England, you pick up when you are 60). Looking at the actual experiences that I have had in this game......I really enjoy watching enemy machines diving down and 'bouncing a flight' some distance in front of our own and the puffs of smoke signifying some poor sod getting plastered. Then you see the attackers pulling up again and coming round again...sometimes close enough for me to have a go at. Another time I watched an Albatros burning and spinning down not 20 feet from me....a victim from a dogfight taking place above and I swear I heard the pilot screaming.

Best regards,

Pike.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Pike Bishop

[Bandy 3]

...

some keypoints would improved it.

most important, both sides have to retreat after a while because of different reasons. that's the most important thing.

in real you had dogfights of 20 aircraft involved at once but only one or two where shot down, IF any. that was the usual dogfight. they did not shoot down 20 down.

 

I agree totally. There has to be some trigger (a morale check so to speak) that causes AI to split the scene. Low ammo, too many of their wingmates down, leader down, etc...

 

BUT some players want to shoot everything down, and so will follow and shoot fish in the barrel.

[Creaghorn 10]

Dear Creaghorn,

I must say that your comments about "just staying alive" instantly made me think of the times that I have been paintballing, and attempts by people in our group to rally and charge the enemy.....as we cower behind oil drums.......no-one moves because getting shot bloody hurts!! So, with regard to the realism factor, this game is certainly one of the best. Clearly there is a fine balance in making a game as real as possible and making it as playable as possible at the same time. This "simulation has come the closest yet in my eyes. Every time I go up my mouth is as dry as a bone and many times I have 'run away to live to fight another day'. But of course to spend the majority of your time doing this will ultimately be boring so we must seek combat every mission instead of 'tactically avoiding'(I.E. running away) combat which of course real life was not like. Many missions must have taken place where the enemy were never seen at all. However, for me that may be a good thing because I am becoming old slow and my eyes are not so good....... boy do I notice it (I have my freedom pass now which, in England, you pick up when you are 60). Looking at the actual experiences that I have had in this game......I really enjoy watching enemy machines diving down and 'bouncing a flight' some distance in front of our own and the puffs of smoke signifying some poor sod getting plastered. Then you see the attackers pulling up again and coming round again...sometimes close enough for me to have a go at. Another time I watched an Albatros burning and spinning down not 20 feet from me....a victim from a dogfight taking place above and I swear I heard the pilot screaming.

Best regards,

Pike.

 

paintball was exactly the example i had in mind.

playing "lasergotcha" you'll do stupid things because it won't harm you and you would not die. doesn't even hurt to get hit.

in paintball you'll try better because getting hit at least hurts a little bit.

having street and housefights with real guns against serbians invading your country and property, you'll do completely different because it's no game and you can die. somebody is out there who tries to kill you and vice versa.

 

i must say that i try to emulate the third scenario as much as i can in BHAH, because that gives me the satisfaction of "realism". if i want to hunt in sake of the hunt, i'll do quick flight. it's NOT running away but it's avoiding stupid things in disadvantage you wouldn't do in RL. and my hope is that for campaigns the goal of realism is to have it like that.

BHAH's philosophy is about realism all the way, so IMHO it shouldn't be made purposly more arcadish and easy just to not get bored. that's what's QF is for IMO. the first steps in the direction are made with the "flight density" setting. next step would be the smartness of AI to retreat.

although i don't know how to prevent the simmer taking advantage and hunting the easy preys down.

one thing i noticed is when AI has a strafing mission they are not aggressive against you. When you shoot at them the will evade you as usual, afterwards theyl'll continue their task.

something like that might be used for the AI that after a while the mission task is "go home", making him evade when attacked, but flying home when attack stops.

same for your AI, maybe with a message wich appears "retreat", so that you know your wingmen are going to retreat and you should follow and regroup again. maybe with managed consequences after the mission because you disobeyed the order if you still go after the enemy. something like that.

[Olham 164]

Bandy: There has to be some trigger (a morale check so to speak) that causes AI to split the scene.

Low ammo, too many of their wingmates down, leader down, etc...

BUT some players want to shoot everything down, and so will follow and shoot fish in the barrel.

Well, they wouldn't just retreat single in real life. They would assemble high. First there are some

of them circling high, to be a protective guard. Then the lower ones climb under their shelter.

An attacker must be aware of the danger from above - that way it would work.

 

But to write that into the AI code... Quite some hard work, I suppose, if not impossible.

[Bandy 3]

Well, they wouldn't just retreat single in real life. They would assemble high. First there are some

of them circling high, to be a protective guard. Then the lower ones climb under their shelter.

An attacker must be aware of the danger from above - that way it would work.

 

But to write that into the AI code... Quite some hard work, I suppose, if not impossible.

 

Well, that scenario of an "umbrella" sounds like German tactics to me. From all I've read in historic accounts from RFC and RAF pilots, they DID bugger off individually after a quick combat (unless a wingmate was in trouble within visual distance) perhaps to randomly form up if they were lucky and head back to sniff out some more trouble.

 

Would AI retreating be difficult/impossible to code based on triggers? Perhaps, perhaps not.

 

Dare I mention First Eagles here? Well, why not, we can all learn from other places without feeling threatened right? In that sim the AI (depending on experience level, i.e. green to ace) have a code trigger 'chance' to fight on, or not fight on, when they run out of bullets. If they run/retreat for home, they open themselves up to a lead enema. A simple example perhaps, but how it can work. I imagine something like this would have to be supported within CFS in the first place. Without being able to see the internal code, I couldn't say.